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NJSP building non-nfa opinion.

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So, all this just so one can have a 4" shorter less accurate barrel, an uncomfortable "stock", a useless front grip, and a flash hider which minimally suppresses a flash, AND pay twice the price for it. :facepalm: 

GET OUT OF DODGE PEOPLE!!!!

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13 minutes ago, PK90 said:

So, all this just so one can have a 4" shorter less accurate barrel, an uncomfortable "stock", a useless front grip, and a flash hider which minimally suppresses a flash, AND pay twice the price for it. :facepalm: 

GET OUT OF DODGE PEOPLE!!!!

I think for most people here it's about sticking it to the state.  We have no hope of changing the law and no hope of a Supreme Court ruling so we do what we can.

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3 hours ago, ChrisJM981 said:

Please see 3. 

20190704_111307.jpg

So, if I buy from a dealer in that configuration... I can change out the brace for something shorter, and be good at 26” extended? Doesn’t say anything about these firearms have to be out in public like that... just sold.

They really need to get someone to proofread these before sending it out. Or not, because it sounds so idiotic.

4 hours ago, PK90 said:

An attorney would pick this letter apart. But then you'll reach step 2.

Same point with the measurements...

You have an email from NJSP, stating a firearm with a folding brace is ok. Yet, that firearm (Black Aces DT) is only 26+” with the brace extended (folded, it’s well below 20”). And now this one stating must be at 26” fully collapsed. Which is it?

No issue on my end if that is argued. My TAC-14 is locked in my safe, even if the status changed... will be on the way to Maine once I get back.

3 minutes ago, PK90 said:

So, all this just so one can have a 4" shorter less accurate barrel, an uncomfortable "stock", a useless front grip, and a flash hider which minimally suppresses a flash, AND pay twice the price for it. :facepalm: 

GET OUT OF DODGE PEOPLE!!!!

I’m considering a MM SBF... and I can go for a SBR stamp in Maine. I will be getting three suppressors when I’m up there. Big reason why looking at it... because I can go pick it up and own it from Jump Street. No wait for the stamp to come back. It is good to go as soon as NICS clears.

I’m also getting the CMMG Banshee, and likely a PTR 9CT. And while the CMMG comes with a brace, I’ll put one on the PTR. Legal and does not require the stamp. If I decide I don’t like the brace, which it isn’t that uncomfortable with my TAC-14... apply for stamp and once it comes in, buy/install a stock. Same process can be done in any other legal location... and a lot of people do commonly buy pistols with braces until stamps come back to install stocks. For people in NJ, going SBR isn’t an option due to state law. Braced firearms were the only way to get a firearm like a SBS, and now a SBR.

Only real issue with stamps is the costs, time, and restrictions after the fact. Some feel a brace is worth more than those issues.

In regards to the “4” less accurate barrel,” does maneuverability outweigh accuracy a specific range? If you aren’t shooting past 75 yards, what does it matter if it is a 3 MOA gun? We just started on 870 familiarization down here, and a 14” SBS is a lot more maneuverable than an 18” shotgun (even more so than a 20”). Is the stock better than a brace? Of course... but the same OAL with a brace is more better than an 18” 870.

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4 minutes ago, everythingisnothing said:

I think for most people here it's about sticking it to the state.  We have no hope of changing the law and no hope of a Supreme Court ruling so we do what we can.

I would NOT rule out a SCOTUS victory for us just yet!

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1 hour ago, Bully said:

Regardless, it's gonna cost someone a ton of money to prove that what they're doing is legal.  Most I know aren't willing to shell out that money.  Honestly most I know just run at the mouth and when the laws change they're the first in line to comply.  

There is no regardless, what are you going to be charged with? 

 

It won't cost anything unless your caught actually breaking a law. 

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Uhm... accuracy is not lost with shorter barrels. Accuracy is not effected by barrel length. The effective terminal ballistics and effective distance is. So these smaller weapons would actually be perfect for home defense with hollow point ammo to reduce over-pen. Only thing lost is projectile velocity with these firearms.

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1 minute ago, nondisclosure said:

Uhm... accuracy is not lost with shorter barrels. Accuracy is not effected by barrel length....

Really? I didn't know that. So you're saying my 24" barrel is no more accurate than an 8" one. I guess I'm not too old to learn something everyday.

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25 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Really? I didn't know that. So you're saying my 24" barrel is no more accurate than an 8" one. I guess I'm not too old to learn something everyday.

Assuming they are both identical barrels, yes, they will be just as accurate assuming only the length is different. Except,  on the 8” your projectile is losing velocity way faster then when it comes out of your 20”+ barrel.  You will have a flatter trajectory with a longer barrel to about 20-24”. It starts to drop (the FPS of the projectile) significantly as the barrel length gets shorter. 

 

Accuracy never changes. Projectile velocity does... 

this chart is only covering 223. 556 is a little hotter with a bit more velocity. 

3C964B4A-6FDB-4371-9B57-32A2FB4011F2.png

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24 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Really? I didn't know that. So you're saying my 24" barrel is no more accurate than an 8" one. I guess I'm not too old to learn something everyday.

I've heard that length mostly affects accuracy due to harmonics (once barrel length exceeds some minimum length).  A long barrel with poor harmonics might perform worse than a shorter barrel with better harmonics.  I've seen arguments and data for both points of view.  For 5.56 I don't think there is a huge difference between an 11.5" and 20", though.

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8 hours ago, nondisclosure said:

It’s pretty gross that the NJSP said, we can’t let you build these because you’re too stupid to build something legal out of a receiver.

constructive intent is nonsense. Buy a complete upper, slap a vfg, no intent after about 22 seconds... Build a lower slap a brace and there is no intent after the upper is built. They’ll have a 20 minute window to come in raid the house and kill the doggo before it is a legally constructed firearm.

And if you do it in the garden shed, they'll first flashbang your neighbor's poolhouse and rake all his windows, pop his chihuahua and labradoodle so you have about 45 minutes before they knock on your door, by which time you're good to go.

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7 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

If they want to get you, yes.  Welcome to the Peoples Republic of New Jersey!

They would have to alter the upper so it could not be mated with a standard lower. I doubt they did that!

It has been said many a time, in NJ you own a gun at the explicit exemption of the authorities, otherwise what you're doing is entirely illegal. This isn't America.

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4 hours ago, PK90 said:

So, all this just so one can have a 4" shorter less accurate barrel, an uncomfortable "stock", a useless front grip, and a flash hider which minimally suppresses a flash, AND pay twice the price for it. :facepalm: 

GET OUT OF DODGE PEOPLE!!!!

Yo dawg, maybe I want to ride my bike to the range and not have every cop on the way stop me because I'm shlepping a rifle case, but instead have a sexy longer backpack on my back which they'll think is some hipster longboard travel case, esp. if you slap some "Shorties be broke, longies be woke" patches on it. Because if I was taking a separate upper and lower, bro, that's constructive intent!

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5 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

There is no regardless, what are you going to be charged with? 

 

It won't cost anything unless your caught actually breaking a law. 

You're right.  I'm out.

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On 7/4/2019 at 2:52 PM, Screwball said:

In regards to the “4” less accurate barrel,” does maneuverability outweigh accuracy a specific range? If you aren’t shooting past 75 yards, what does it matter if it is a 3 MOA gun? We just started on 870 familiarization down here, and a 14” SBS is a lot more maneuverable than an 18” shotgun (even more so than a 20”). Is the stock better than a brace? Of course... but the same OAL with a brace is more better than an 18” 870.

I think PK is referring to the stupidity of the NJSP to try and restrict this more than us trying to acquire one

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5 minutes ago, Blacksmythe said:

Picture

Yeah, that's nice and all, but as Anthony Colandro keeps saying, you're a law-abiding criminal in NJ. Why would you deliberately try to get yourself in trouble with the law over firearms? At a minimum, you get a felony conviction and life is totally screwed from then on. No more firearms, ever. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, it's that simple.

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10 minutes ago, runcibleman said:

Yeah, that's nice and all, but as Anthony Colandro keeps saying, you're a law-abiding criminal in NJ. Why would you deliberately try to get yourself in trouble with the law over firearms? At a minimum, you get a felony conviction and life is totally screwed from then on. No more firearms, ever. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, it's that simple.

What makes you think it's deliberately trying to get in trouble? 

It's not like walking into a police station with a home made 80% Glock.

 

At a minimum, you build one and no one knows you did. 

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From Reddit - somebody called NJSP Det. Bloom directly:

EDIT: I AM NOT A LAWYER, THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE OR TO BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVICE. MORE IMPORTANTLY I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER. IF YOU DESIRE LEGAL ADVICE PLEASE CONSULT A COMPETENT LICENSED ATTORNEY IN YOUR AREA.

Context and why him: he wrote (or at least signed) the letter that has caused a ton of threads, opinions etc.

Initially I planned on using voice memos on the iPhone to record the convo but I felt uncomfortable doing that.

Overall he’s very nice, pleasant, and willing to take as long as you need to walk through scenarios, and opine based on the briefings and information he has (he is not a lawyer).

I totally advise you giving him a call if you have questions. 609 882 2000. Ext 2060

Gonna summarize our call. My q’s his replies our discussion. (all paraphrased).

Before I got to my initial question below, I told him why I was calling, the first opinion letter that was posted all over the Internet by Troy and DSI had specific Manufactures UPC numbers of items that they reviewed and approved for sale. And now more then those items and UPCs are for sale.

That obviously leads to me believing building is okay, because each individual item UPC currently for sale has not been approved by the NJSP but they follow the guidance of the initial two UPCs that were reviewed and approved.

 • Brett replied, that the point of the initial letter was twofold 1) it approved the two specific models. 2) described the exact specifics of why those two are approved, which gives guidance to all others.

He also mentioned at this point, other manufactures have reached out to the NJSP, he stated that they still can send in an item to be reviewed but they do not have to. He specifically stated LWRC. (So maybe we will be seeing a very high quality non NFA other for sale soon).

So now:

My initial question was, per the opinion letter on building can he tell me if building a Non NFA Other breaks any law and if so which law.

 • this answer was in a vacuum no.

 • The purpose of the letter was to keep people “out of the jackpot” - his words. (Obviously a Mets fan, Terry Collins reference we laughed about that but I feel bad for him the Mets stink) Because:

 • Desire to keep people from actually building a SBR or NFA item And

 • Based on the worst case definitions of “intent” and “readily available to assemble ” the NJSP COULD see scenarios where individuals especially people who have built COULD be charged by an “ overzealous”- (his word) prosecutor.

 • His reasoning again made sense builders are normally in possession of extra parts and components.

 • So you then must prove your intent was to build something compliant vs the prosecutors intent to build something illegal.

VERY long winded first question.

I then walked him through scenarios on building (taken from this sub) step by step to get his opinion.

The major assumption in the below is that you have no other parts / component laying around.

Step 1) complete upper with a vertical grip. Step 2) have the brace first Step 3) buy and complete the lower w the brace Step 4) mate the upper and lower

He stated that sounds okay, at no point you have intent to do anything else as you only own and are in possession of 1 upper, 1 brace 1 lower. All have relationship.

Brett mentioned again at this point he is not a lawyer but “I thought about building one too and that is what I would do”.

Concluding: this call put me much more at ease around the opinions the thought process, and actual laws regarding non NFA builds.

I encourage anyone to call him up as well, go through more scenarios, ask more questions and post below. People post “boot licker” and what not in here but genuinely I do think Brett supports the 2nd amendment and really just doesn’t want to put people in the jackpot because of “orders” from the AG or Murphy.

EDIT: I AM NOT A LAWYER, THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE OR TO BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVICE. MORE IMPORTANTLY I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER. IF YOU DESIRE LEGAL ADVICE PLEASE CONSULT A COMPETENT LICENSED ATTORNEY IN YOUR AREA.

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On 7/4/2019 at 5:54 PM, everythingisnothing said:

I've heard that length mostly affects accuracy due to harmonics (once barrel length exceeds some minimum length).  A long barrel with poor harmonics might perform worse than a shorter barrel with better harmonics.  I've seen arguments and data for both points of view.  For 5.56 I don't think there is a huge difference between an 11.5" and 20", though.

I know sight radius isn't really the point of this discussion (and this discussion is really about precision, not accuracy), but when iron sights are considered, barrel length has a big effect on precision simply because having front and rear sights further apart reduces angular shift error (the aiming problem caused by sights that are misaligned relative to one another).

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A whole lot of fake ass freedom lovers out there. Drive to your local police station and just turn in your lawfully acquired property now.  Then let us know so we can count you out of the boogaloo.

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7 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

From Reddit - somebody called NJSP Det. Bloom directly:
 

JHCTDOAC, I am SO glad I left NJ, a lotta 'gun owners' in NJ are a bunch of fags, some idiot did just as I predicted! Look for all this crap to be banned very shortly, via 'reinterpretation' of the AWB statute.

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