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LWRC Oscar Foxtrot: Other firearm

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2 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Or you can just buy it direct.  $116.

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/ar15-barrels/556-nato?barrel_length=44

currently out of stock but should be in soon. 

12.5" is in stock.

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/12-5-inch-556-gov-carbine-cmv-modern-barrel.html

But also keep in mind. I had to remind Joe that building your own is legal in NJ so they may or may not sell you the barrel separately?  I would think with having to re barrel guns, they are not going to sell any extras at the moment.

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The 11.5” won’t make the minimum SBF length without pinning a brake.

The barrels MM use are custom cut to 11.75” (as specified by MM) specifically to eliminate the pinning of the brake and still making the minimum OAL required by the ATF after redefining how they measure OAL on a SBF.

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35 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

the 11.75"?

Spoke with Joe... So they have the exclusive 11.75" from BA.  Essentially cut to that length for these guns.  The extra .25"  gets over the legal limit.

Good news is... I believe I am getting one of their guns so will have the three major ones and the LWRC soon after.  Hoping to do some accuracy tests next week, everything from 50 to 300 with various ammo.

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And as a note... Between the 4... I really do believe each is unique in their own way and there is enough there to differentiate for the type of gun owner you are and what you are looking for feature wise. Once I complete the individual videos will put one together of the 4... but will have accuracy results hopefully this time next week, as long as I get it in time.

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52 minutes ago, Maksim said:

And as a note... Between the 4... I really do believe each is unique in their own way and there is enough there to differentiate for the type of gun owner you are and what you are looking for feature wise. Once I complete the individual videos will put one together of the 4... but will have accuracy results hopefully this time next week, as long as I get it in time.

A comparison of the 9mm variants would also be great.

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5 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

I think people should realize that garbage ammo includes "plinking rounds" of every major brand... I wouldn't expect MOA from anything under $15.00/box20.

 

people really underestimate the variances in bullet weights and power charges in high volume manufactured ammo. Half a grain may not seem like much but it really is. 

 

@GRIZ  Do you know if MM would sell just the barrel?

@JackDaWack you got several informed answers.  Any one of them most likely more knowledgeable than me as far as your question.  I really know nothing about MM.

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22 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Have not shot the MM 9mm but have shot the Troy and DSI.

What's the question?

How do they compare in terms of reliability, balance and overall handling including perceived recoil?  And how would the Troy and DSI compare to, say, a scorpion in those same categories.   

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24 minutes ago, samtechlan said:

How do they compare in terms of reliability, balance and overall handling including perceived recoil?  And how would the Troy and DSI compare to, say, a scorpion in those same categories.   

Define reliability?  500 rounds? 1,000?  5,000?  Put a few hundred through the Troy and a bit less through DSI, no stoppages.

Common issues are the last round bolt hold open but that is magazine related, applies to most AR PCCs.

One thing to keep in mind is that these are blowback operated so all are going to be fairly reliable.

Recoil was about the same, maybe a tad less on the Troy.

The DSI has a few upgrades such as billet upper and lower, nicer charging handle, ambi controls.

Troy will be more durable as it is forged receivers, but they look a tad plane.  They also come with sights.

I think both also had less recoil than the Scorpion and both guns weight less.

Keep in mind, biggest difference... in the "non-nfa" configuration, you have adjustable pistol brace.  With Scropion... will be a neutered stock and longer barrel.

Magazine choice is also there to consider.  Troy/DSI and MM?  Use Glock mags.  Scorpion uses their own mags.  There are A LOT more Glock mags out there and cheap cheap cheap.

The Troy gun will be avail to try (in 9mm) on Tuesday at Garden State shooting Center so come on down and try it.  

 

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8 hours ago, samtechlan said:

How do they compare in terms of reliability, balance and overall handling including perceived recoil?  And how would the Troy and DSI compare to, say, a scorpion in those same categories.   

As I have both the Scorpion rifle and the Scorpion micro (both in FL) although I could make the rifle good to go in N.J. with little effort, I thought I would chime in. I have not fired any of the NON-NFA's but do also own and have fired a 9mm AR style rifle.  I can tell you that the 9 mm Scorpion rifle is a hell of alot of fun because of its cool design and lots of fun to shoot ); it also extremely accurate with the barrel it comes with (not sure if cz makes or sources there barrels; but the same is true on whatever barrels they use on their pistols. I shoot the scorpion indoors, so I have only fired it up to 50 yards with excellent groupings, the bolt on it is massive and the thing never every jams no matter what ammo I have fed it.

I am sure the non-NFA 9 offerings are or also will be fine, but unless you spend the extra money for the non-plain look on them--they are probably plain vanilla. Magazines are not a problem on the Scorpion as there are lots of options, you can go cz, magpul, PSA, and there are two other co's (I forget that make mags). Since I don't need to block, I have not looked into aftermarket CZ block mags and that would only be an issue if I wanted to bring the rifle back to NJ.

Recoil in 9mm doesn't seem to be an issue no matter which way you go.

In the 223/556 world I would take the IWI X-95 over any 223/556 NON-NFA in terms of shooting enjoyment and coolness factor. 

If you want to compare a standard AR 9 carbine-16"  to a NON-NFA I guess it depends on what type of range-distance you are looking for. Indoors up to 50' it probably does not make a difference: outdoors up to 100" and/or beyond, I don't know and would defer to those who have shot one at distance--I guess it depends on barrel quality, but generally, the longer the barrel, the longer the bullet is stabilized before it is released.

The great thing about the NON-NFA is that it offers additional choices. If you have the $ I would get the Scorpion rifle, a NON-NFA and and AR  14" with a pinned and welded brake or a 16" and a NON-NFA, and while your at it pick up an x95 also. To a large extent, the market is flooded with firearms and there are great deals out there

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2 hours ago, SJG said:

As I have both the Scorpion rifle and the Scorpion micro (both in FL) although I could make the rifle good to go in N.J. with little effort, I thought I would chime in. I have not fired any of the NON-NFA's but do also own and have fired a 9mm AR style rifle.  I can tell you that the 9 mm Scorpion rifle is a hell of alot of fun because of its cool design and lots of fun to shoot ); it also extremely accurate with the barrel it comes with (not sure if cz makes or sources there barrels; but the same is true on whatever barrels they use on their pistols. I shoot the scorpion indoors, so I have only fired it up to 50 yards with excellent groupings, the bolt on it is massive and the thing never every jams no matter what ammo I have fed it.

I am sure the non-NFA 9 offerings are or also will be fine, but unless you spend the extra money for the non-plain look on them--they are probably plain vanilla. Magazines are not a problem on the Scorpion as there are lots of options, you can go cz, magpul, PSA, and there are two other co's (I forget that make mags). Since I don't need to block, I have not looked into aftermarket CZ block mags and that would only be an issue if I wanted to bring the rifle back to NJ.

Recoil in 9mm doesn't seem to be an issue no matter which way you go.

In the 223/556 world I would take the IWI X-95 over any 223/556 NON-NFA in terms of shooting enjoyment and coolness factor. 

If you want to compare a standard AR 9 carbine-16"  to a NON-NFA I guess it depends on what type of range-distance you are looking for. Indoors up to 50' it probably does not make a difference: outdoors up to 100" and/or beyond, I don't know and would defer to those who have shot one at distance--I guess it depends on barrel quality, but generally, the longer the barrel, the longer the bullet is stabilized before it is released.

The great thing about the NON-NFA is that it offers additional choices. If you have the $ I would get the Scorpion rifle, a NON-NFA and and AR  14" with a pinned and welded brake or a 16" and a NON-NFA, and while your at it pick up an x95 also. To a large extent, the market is flooded with firearms and there are great deals out there

Thanks I have a couple of 16" Ar's and do not have any interest at the moment in the non nfa in 5.56.

However I have greatly enjoyed my ruger PC in 9mm both indoors and outdoors.  Over 1,500 rounds without a single issue. My interest is solely in the 9mm non-nfa variant due to the lighter weight, shorter barrel, adjustable brace etc.  If I lived in a free state I would probably opt for a Zenith MP5 clone or a b&t apc9. 

With the 9mm non nfa variants you really get the advantage of a significantly shorter barrel since you don't really need to run a muzzle device just a thread protector.

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3 hours ago, samtechlan said:

Thanks I have a couple of 16" Ar's and do not have any interest at the moment in the non nfa in 5.56.

However I have greatly enjoyed my ruger PC in 9mm both indoors and outdoors.  Over 1,500 rounds without a single issue. My interest is solely in the 9mm non-nfa variant due to the lighter weight, shorter barrel, adjustable brace etc.  If I lived in a free state I would probably opt for a Zenith MP5 clone or a b&t apc9. 

With the 9mm non nfa variants you really get the advantage of a significantly shorter barrel since you don't really need to run a muzzle device just a thread protector.

Precisely.

And accuracy... it will be tough to beat the Ruger PC Carbine in 9mm.

Of course... we do have to qualify accuracy as well... If you are shooting at 50 yards out of a 10+ inch barrel almost anything is going to group well enough... i.e. under 2"... it is once you get past those distances that things change quite quickly.

The recoil of the 9mm guns, as they are blowback, will be on par with 5.56.

@SJG  In free states mags will not be a huge issue but you cannot say that CZ mags are as cheap or as readily available in as many options as Glock mags.  They are cheap and readily available that any NJ owner when shooting in PA can go to the store buy some mags, have fun with big sticks, then toss them out and not feel too much.

Furthermore, from the magazine commonality stand point, it is very tough to beat the Glock mags in the AR platform.

Yes, as a standalone gun, the CZ Evo is good... I can't speak to its accuracy as I have not done any testing in that realm,  But at the end, it is simply another good pistol caliber carbine... on its own merits.

It doesn't really fit with other guns though...

Btw, go shoot a Non-NFA or an SBR 9mm AR... it will surely give the CZ a run for the money and put it back a few places.

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15 hours ago, Maksim said:

Define reliability?  500 rounds? 1,000?  5,000?  Put a few hundred through the Troy and a bit less through DSI, no stoppages.

Common issues are the last round bolt hold open but that is magazine related, applies to most AR PCCs.

One thing to keep in mind is that these are blowback operated so all are going to be fairly reliable.

Recoil was about the same, maybe a tad less on the Troy.

The DSI has a few upgrades such as billet upper and lower, nicer charging handle, ambi controls.

Troy will be more durable as it is forged receivers, but they look a tad plane.  They also come with sights.

I think both also had less recoil than the Scorpion and both guns weight less.

Keep in mind, biggest difference... in the "non-nfa" configuration, you have adjustable pistol brace.  With Scropion... will be a neutered stock and longer barrel.

Magazine choice is also there to consider.  Troy/DSI and MM?  Use Glock mags.  Scorpion uses their own mags.  There are A LOT more Glock mags out there and cheap cheap cheap.

The Troy gun will be avail to try (in 9mm) on Tuesday at Garden State shooting Center so come on down and try it.  

 

if you really want:

https://www.redplanetarsenal.com/product-page/cz-scorpion

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23 hours ago, High Exposure said:

The 11.5” won’t make the minimum SBF length without pinning a brake.

The barrels MM use are custom cut to 11.75” (as specified by MM) specifically to eliminate the pinning of the brake and still making the minimum OAL required by the ATF after redefining how they measure OAL on a SBF.

Or use an A5 buffer tube and youll hit length with 11.5" barrel

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On 8/29/2019 at 5:30 PM, High Exposure said:

The 11.5” won’t make the minimum SBF length without pinning a brake.

The barrels MM use are custom cut to 11.75” (as specified by MM) specifically to eliminate the pinning of the brake and still making the minimum OAL required by the ATF after redefining how they measure OAL on a SBF.

This is true. Not all barrels are cut to the exact 1/16 of an inch. I ordered an 11.5 got an 11.2 to the end of the threads!

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38 minutes ago, Blacksmythe said:

This is true. Not all barrels are cut to the exact 1/16 of an inch. I ordered an 11.5 got an 11.2 to the end of the threads!

11.5 wont make the measurement even if its a true 11.5. It will come up short. Now that we have to measure from the end of the buffer tube MM had to add an extra 1/4 inch to the barrels. unless your using an A5 system then your GTG.  Its really ridiculous...i guess you wont be able to conceal this weapon now with that extra 1/4 inch  

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I got both Troy 10.5" and LWRC/piston 12.6" and for sure Troy is not the same league to LWRC but OK. While I hate this stupid brace on both - I am very happy that I could finally could get shorter rifle than 16", which is horribly huge in compare to both. Piston system is superb on LWRC but no adjustment option on this model :( We could talk a lot about piston AR but neither of them with short piston is cheap, HK is over $3K and LMT will cost more money then LWRC. I don't care much about LWRC rail (it is done great for the piston maintenance btw) but I do care about barrel quality and overall rifle quality, LWRC is very good in this respect. And yes I own BCM, Daniel and another 16" LWRC DI rifles, I could compare and LWRC is always on top hands down. Just my opinion :) I wish we could build these short firearms, but still, you most likely will never build piston one so LWRC is great option.

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5 minutes ago, leo-польд said:

I got both Troy 10.5" and LWRC/piston 12.6" and for sure Troy is not the same league to LWRC but OK. While I hate this stupid brace on both - I am very happy that I could finally could get shorter rifle than 16", which is horribly huge in compare to both. Piston system is superb on LWRC but no adjustment option on this model :( We could talk a lot about piston AR but neither of them with short piston is cheap, HK is over $3K and LMT will cost more money then LWRC. I don't care much about LWRC rail (it is done great for the piston maintenance btw) but I do care about barrel quality and overall rifle quality, LWRC is very good in this respect. And yes I own BCM, Daniel and another 16" LWRC DI rifles, I could compare and LWRC is always on top hands down. Just my opinion :) I wish we could build these short firearms, but still, you most likely will never build piston one so LWRC is great option.

You can build one in NJ... as long as it is a clean receiver.  in CT you cannot build one however.  in NJ you are good to go.

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On 8/28/2019 at 7:59 AM, Rufio.Weaponworks said:

Their proprietary rail is annoying, same issue with my Knights Mod 0...that being said LWRC is the only short piston rifle with a rail that isn’t cumbersome. See anything piston driven from Sig Sauer, LMT or HK.

My M6IC has seen 5k rounds, 1k suppressed and no issues. I’ve cleaned it 3 times and it didn’t really need it. I don’t shoot it as much now that I know it’s reliable and proven, in the last 12 months I’ve shot it 5 times and maybe 1k rounds in that time. Been shooting my SR-15 and my Noveske a lot more.

It is funny that someone could line up Sig in between LWRC, LMT and HK :) They are (Sig) is knowingly great pistols makers only... And yes I do own many Sig rifles before and neither of them was good, sold all.

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3 hours ago, leo-польд said:

Good news, very rare these days...

 

3 hours ago, Maksim said:

You can build one in NJ... as long as it is a clean receiver.  in CT you cannot build one however.  in NJ you are good to go.

We need to a parts list together to do it

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