LWRC Oscar Foxtrot: Other firearm

[Kwin 9]

Feel free to delete if this has been discussed.. I did search before posting and didn't find a thread. Remember reading that this was in the works though..

Stumbled across this for sale ad

Not quite sure what there "IC-DI" rail is.. proprietary? 

 

[bhunted 887]

Not sure I get it. Seems like an AR-Pistol..... Rail should be good. Only thing I see is that they put a vertical grip on front. If it is indeed an AR-Pistol with a play of words, the vertical grip is a no-no... Makes it an SBR.

 

Just noticed on the LWRC site, that they make dealer exclusive weapon models too. So guess that's it.

 

[Kwin 9]

27 minutes ago, bhunted said:

Not sure I get it. Seems like an AR-Pistol..... Rail should be good. Only thing I see is that they put a vertical grip on front. If it is indeed an AR-Pistol with a play of words, the vertical grip is a no-no... Makes it an SBR.

 

Just noticed on the LWRC site, that they make dealer exclusive weapon models too. So guess that's it.

 

I take it you haven’t been keeping up on the NJSP ruling that “Other Firearms” not quite rifle not quite pistol are good to go in NJ. 

 

See this thread 

 

Just realized there is an other weapon sub forum. Mods could you please move? I’m on my phone now! 

[bhunted 887]

Yes, I follow ATF stuff because we are held to those laws as well. As of late, the ATF flip flops like the demtards. One minute is ok, then another letter says no. As for NJSP, I cannot see them not making the ATF law the same as theirs or even worse because of NJ's dumb gun laws.

I was qualified here by a former FBI agent and like most others, say as long as there is no VFG, you are good. 

Here is a page that resides on SB Tactical's site. Good references. They keep up on these as they are one of the first making braces...
https://www.sb-tactical.com/resource-category/atf-letter/

 

Do what you have to so. I think the NFA rulings on these are ridiculous as much as the stamp required to get an SBR....
Others are saying that it is just a ploy to skirt SBR rulings. Call it what you will. 

 

[Kwin 9]

Didn’t start the thread to discuss the legalities of the firearm. Not sure if that’s where you were going after.  What were you qualified to do by a former FBI agent? 

 

Anyways, as far as I’m aware this is the highest price firearm of its kind on dealer shelves. Do you think it’s justified? 

[Krdshrk 3,339]

3 minutes ago, Kwin said:

Anyways, as far as I’m aware this is the highest price firearm of its kind on dealer shelves. Do you think it’s justified? 

It's LWRC.  You pay for the name.

Also it's Ottomanelli's... you also pay more for that name.

[Kwin 9]

You’re right about both. 

[Maksim 1,503]

Thanks to @Rufio.Weaponworks we should have one to play around with soon. 

[Kwin 9]

Very cool! I know you have voiced your opinion but I hope you one day get a Modern Materiel SBF to compare. 

[samtechlan 23]

6 minutes ago, Kwin said:

Very cool! I know you have voiced your opinion but I hope you one day get a Modern Materiel SBF to compare. 

Now that these are becoming more common it's time for a comparison/rating of the different models.

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

From my experience with my Noveske and shooting Maksim’s troy there’s a lot of blowback without being suppressed....since 5.56 is optimized for 16” or greater it’s not a shock to me. I’m intrigued to find out of the piston will be the same or better. I’m excited to try it, I love my M6IC-SPR

[bhunted 887]

5 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

It's LWRC.  You pay for the name.

Also it's Ottomanelli's... you also pay more for that name.

LOL, beat me to it... Yep on both....

[High Exposure 5,063]

I’m confused - the ad posted in the OP states it is “Direct Gas Impingement” not piston. You keep saying DI but you are talking about the firearm as if it was piston. All of the other SBFs on the market are DI systems.

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

The LWRC is a piston model. Troy, DSI and Modmat are all DI...that’s what LWRC has been advertising it as at least

[samtechlan 23]

32 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

I’m confused - the ad posted in the OP states it is “Direct Gas Impingement” not piston. You keep saying DI but you are talking about the firearm as if it was piston. All of the other SBFs on the market are DI systems.

LWRC has two non nfa nj models, one DI and one piston.

[Kwin 9]

Whoops yep, kept writing DI when I meant piston.. the ad does make it seems like it’s another DI gun. 

 

[High Exposure 5,063]

5 minutes ago, Kwin said:

Whoops yep, kept writing DI when I meant piston.. the ad does make it seems like it’s another DI gun. 

 

The ad in your original post IS for a DI gun - Not a piston gun.

[Kwin 9]

Oh sorry.. I’ll edit op to reflect that. What’s up with that big rail then? Thought they may have added it to accommodate a piston. Why not just go with a smaller mlok?   

[samtechlan 23]

Piston version ready for Jersey.

 

[SW9racer 261]

9 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

It's LWRC.  You pay for the name.

I always thought that LWRC is worth the higher price?  Like S&W over Taurus?

[Kwin 9]

1 hour ago, SW9racer said:

I always thought that LWRC is worth the higher price?  Like S&W over Taurus?

Thinks it’s better than some other ARs out there but not quite top shelf. 

Sorta like passing that m&p for a glock because it’s got a longer track record and more aftermarket availability.

Not knocking anyone’s rifle.. I’m sure for most of us (me included) they will function perfectly fine. 

[shooter28 153]

So this is the 5th or 6th manufacturer getting in the game? Thought the writing was on the wall and no other manufacturers were following the trend....

[Maksim 1,503]

Humn, may need to send a second email. lol to get the piston too.

Tomorrow I have a full day with Dark Storm that is coming over with their guns.

I think for 99% of the gun owners, any of these guns are going to be fine and if they get a total of 1,000 rounds through them, it will be A LOT.

What I am interested in seeing is what kind of barrels they are using and accuracy we may get out of them... not that anyone really expects sub moa out of them anyway.

Pretty much all use the same brakes, mil-spec triggers, etc.

What is different is really the rail, barrels, pistol grips, vertical fore grip, muzzle device and sights (if any).

Other differences are where the components come from, etc.

In either case, any of the guns here, except the Radical Firearms, are going to be mid to top tier type guns.  They are not $400 or $500 Palmettos.

The Dark Storm V1 I have I am quite impressed with fit and finish wise and has most of the upgraded things including charging handles, matching lower/upper, ambi controls, really nice muzzle brake, etc.

[Maksim 1,503]

9 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

So this is the 5th or 6th manufacturer getting in the game? Thought the writing was on the wall and no other manufacturers were following the trend....

No other major manufacturer as far as I am aware of.

For a smaller company, all they have to do is slap on a Vertical Fore Grip to a Pistol, OR swap the stock for a brace on their SBRs.

Minimal investment and nimble enough companies can do it... especially if they don't care to send in their guns for NJSP approval.  So far only DSI and Troy sent their guns in to NJSP and hence why had the explicit letter.

Others are just manufacturing to the same specs as approved, hence in my book "good enough" and definitely better than making your own (from the exposure risk.)

As far as three top manufacturers... ZERO plans to as of the last time I spoke with them. 

Here is the thing... the market in NJ is fairly small.... so For say Smith & Wesson, Ruger, etc... selling 2,000 rifles is not a great ROI.  (and that is a high number).  Realistically they can expect to sell 500 to 1,000 of such guns.  The top guys are are high XXX, third guys are low XXX for these types of variants.

The bigger opportunity is of course nationwide.  

So yes, if you are an LWRC, LaRue, Noveske or another niche or higher end manufacturer, if they can sell 1,000 guns at their high prices... it is well worth it to them.  To a larger manufacturer too much risk, etc, especially if they go through distributors instead of going direct to dealers. 

[GramGun79 226]

33 minutes ago, Maksim said:

No other major manufacturer as far as I am aware of.

For a smaller company, all they have to do is slap on a Vertical Fore Grip to a Pistol, OR swap the stock for a brace on their SBRs.

Minimal investment and nimble enough companies can do it... especially if they don't care to send in their guns for NJSP approval.  So far only DSI and Troy sent their guns in to NJSP and hence why had the explicit letter.

Others are just manufacturing to the same specs as approved, hence in my book "good enough" and definitely better than making your own (from the exposure risk.)

As far as three top manufacturers... ZERO plans to as of the last time I spoke with them. 

Here is the thing... the market in NJ is fairly small.... so For say Smith & Wesson, Ruger, etc... selling 2,000 rifles is not a great ROI.  (and that is a high number).  Realistically they can expect to sell 500 to 1,000 of such guns.  The top guys are are high XXX, third guys are low XXX for these types of variants.

The bigger opportunity is of course nationwide.  

So yes, if you are an LWRC, LaRue, Noveske or another niche or higher end manufacturer, if they can sell 1,000 guns at their high prices... it is well worth it to them.  To a larger manufacturer too much risk, etc, especially if they go through distributors instead of going direct to dealers. 

I did get an email today that BCM has come out with a whole line of 11.5 inch completed uppers. Maybe they see a market for those who want to put together their own lowers, slap on a complete upper and add a vertical fore grip?? 

[Maksim 1,503]

2 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

I did get an email today that BCM has come out with a whole line of 11.5 inch completed uppers. Maybe they see a market for those who want to put together their own lowers, slap on a complete upper and add a vertical fore grip?? 

I doubt that is for the "other firearm."

Keep in mind, outside of NJ, there is real fear of pistol braces and pistol ar's being classified as SBRs.

Speaking with a number of Class 3 SOTs, there is a fairly big uptick in people building SBRs and getting tax stamps to get ahead of new legislation.  So the BCM 11.5 I think is geared towards the pistol/SBR market, rather than the 2,000 or so "other firearms" that were sold in NJ over the last few months.

[shooter28 153]

10 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

I did get an email today that BCM has come out with a whole line of 11.5 inch completed uppers. Maybe they see a market for those who want to put together their own lowers, slap on a complete upper and add a vertical fore grip?? 

I think they are just catering to the AR pistol market. But that does go to the larger picture of these manufacturers not being overly concerned about the future of braces. The only place I am seeing any talk of brace regulation has been on gun forums with the only evidence being a tweet from some random lawyer ( who i think deleted it)

[Kwin 9]

Have to agree with Maksim ..I think a lot of it comes down to features. LWRCs proprietary rail doesn’t thrill me. Also want to note it’s a shame most of these rifles won’t see 1k rounds.. Would be cool to get a low cost semi informal monthly meetup/training session going somewhere but I digress..

For anyone still on the fence take a look at this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?200867-Current-state-of-LWRC

Granted, it’s from 2017. Would argue the site was more critical of AR builds then. 

[GramGun79 226]

13 minutes ago, Maksim said:

I doubt that is for the "other firearm."

Keep in mind, outside of NJ, there is real fear of pistol braces and pistol ar's being classified as SBRs.

Speaking with a number of Class 3 SOTs, there is a fairly big uptick in people building SBRs and getting tax stamps to get ahead of new legislation.  So the BCM 11.5 I think is geared towards the pistol/SBR market, rather than the 2,000 or so "other firearms" that were sold in NJ over the last few months.

 

5 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

I think they are just catering to the AR pistol market. But that does go to the larger picture of these manufacturers not being overly concerned about the future of braces. The only place I am seeing any talk of brace regulation has been on gun forums with the only evidence being a tweet from some random lawyer ( who i think deleted it)

i think your both right but its nice to know you have a BCM available now if you want to build your own SBF.. Not cheap though...i put something together in a shopping cart and once you get done with  the upper, bolt, charging handle and some sights you're looking north of 1k just for the upper. 

[Kwin 9]

Complete BCM lower can be had for around $500 on gunbroker.. I would take that build over the competition but that’s me.