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Kwin

LWRC Oscar Foxtrot: Other firearm

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2 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

 

i think your both right but its nice to know you have a BCM available now if you want to build your own SBF.. Not cheap though...i put something together in a shopping cart and once you get done with  the upper, bolt, charging handle and some sights you're looking north of 1k just for the upper. 

You generally get what you pay for.

The short barrel firearms currently being sold in NJ are not cheap component guns... If you wanted to put together the same quality gun, you are going to spend north of $1k... basically what they sell for.

The question is of course... do you need it?  Or would you be okay with the cheap Palmetto State Freedom kits?

95% of gun owners here would be just fine with them anyway.

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BCM has well over 2000 sku numbers for uppers - over 25 different skus for 11.5” uppers alone. They have been building 11.5” and 12.5” uppers, including their Kino uppers (basically a SBR version of a Dissipator) for years. Paul probably does not even care that these NFA Firearms are a thing here. Enough legitimate SBR owners and .Gov, military and LE organs are buying BCM products that the pistol/NFA market is just a bonus.

Don’t read into it any more than the fact that BCM has a sale on 11.5” uppers in a new configuration. 

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3 hours ago, Maksim said:

You generally get what you pay for.

The short barrel firearms currently being sold in NJ are not cheap component guns... If you wanted to put together the same quality gun, you are going to spend north of $1k... basically what they sell for.

The question is of course... do you need it?  Or would you be okay with the cheap Palmetto State Freedom kits?

95% of gun owners here would be just fine with them anyway.

Parts are not created equal and I don’t aspire to mediocrity. You truly do get what you pay for.

Also, when buying a complete/finished firearm from a reputable company you get a warranty/guarantee backed by said company that you do not get when you build yourself. 

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11 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Parts are not created equal and I don’t aspire to mediocrity. You truly do get what you pay for.

Also, when buying a complete/finished firearm from a reputable company you get a warranty/guarantee backed by said company that you do not get when you build yourself. 

Thanks for chiming in and your additions.   As I said, you are in the 1%. =P

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2 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Parts are not created equal and I don’t aspire to mediocrity. You truly do get what you pay for.

Also, when buying a complete/finished firearm from a reputable company you get a warranty/guarantee backed by said company that you do not get when you build yourself. 

This is exactly why most of my guns are complete builds from factory and the reason I bought the MODMAT SBF. Great group of guys that put out a solid product. I’m sure the same goes for LWRC, Troy & DS. Would be cool if @Modern Materiel can get @Maksim a demo SBF so we see him squatting with one of those bad boys! 

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10 hours ago, Kwin said:

Have to agree with Maksim ..I think a lot of it comes down to features. LWRCs proprietary rail doesn’t thrill me. Also want to note it’s a shame most of these rifles won’t see 1k rounds.. Would be cool to get a low cost semi informal monthly meetup/training session going somewhere but I digress..

For anyone still on the fence take a look at this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?200867-Current-state-of-LWRC

Granted, it’s from 2017. Would argue the site was more critical of AR builds then. 

Their proprietary rail is annoying, same issue with my Knights Mod 0...that being said LWRC is the only short piston rifle with a rail that isn’t cumbersome. See anything piston driven from Sig Sauer, LMT or HK.

My M6IC has seen 5k rounds, 1k suppressed and no issues. I’ve cleaned it 3 times and it didn’t really need it. I don’t shoot it as much now that I know it’s reliable and proven, in the last 12 months I’ve shot it 5 times and maybe 1k rounds in that time. Been shooting my SR-15 and my Noveske a lot more.

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18 hours ago, Kwin said:

Complete BCM lower can be had for around $500 on gunbroker.. I would take that build over the competition but that’s me. 

Not sure if legally it would work out. Wouldn't a complete lower be transferred in its intended configuration? Say it has a pistol brace.. Would it be transferred as a pistol making it a no go for the "other Firearm" category? Most of the listing i see on GB are listing them as Pistol or Rifle lowers.

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50 minutes ago, GramGun79 said:

Not sure if legally it would work out. Wouldn't a complete lower be transferred in its intended configuration? Say it has a pistol brace.. Would it be transferred as a pistol making it a no go for the "other Firearm" category? Most of the listing i see on GB are listing them as Pistol or Rifle lowers.

My thoughts too.  Have to ask an FFL on this, but my take was, a complete lower receiver comes out as either a rifle OR a pistol (if you are going to run it as a pistol).

Stripped goes out as "other"

So... would be a little concerned buying a completed lower, unless FFL wants to do it as "other"?

I have not looked into this so do not know exactly.

@FreedomSportsLLC @PK90 @JT Custom Guns @remixer

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Federally, a complete lower with a stock is still an "other". So you can take off the stock and build whatever.

In NJ, it must transfer on a FPID or Permit, right? Dependent on what your building. Do the non-NFAs go out on a FPID?

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2 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Federally, a complete lower with a stock is still an "other". So you can take off the stock and build whatever.

In NJ, it must transfer on a FPID or Permit, right? Dependent on what your building. Do the non-NFAs go out on a FPID?

In NJ as FPID.  In PA... on Pistol paperwork. 

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so what's with all the posts criticizing LWRC so hard? I was a fanboy at one point....now that I own a lot of other rifles I can look at them with a more objective opinion. If you have never shot one or curious about it, I will be happy to explain the pro's and cons

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57 minutes ago, Rufio.Weaponworks said:

so what's with all the posts criticizing LWRC so hard? I was a fanboy at one point....now that I own a lot of other rifles I can look at them with a more objective opinion. If you have never shot one or curious about it, I will be happy to explain the pro's and cons

Knocking em for their proprietary rail. Also think they're priced a bit high but im chalking that up to a supply and demand thing for this particular rifle .. Posted a link to M4carbine.net where people have described them as being hit or miss as far as accuracy goes. They also go on to describe a lawsuit and some shady business practices from the company.

That being said im between picking up a Modern Materiel and an LWRC other firearm given the options right now.

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9 minutes ago, Kwin said:

Knocking em for their proprietary rail. Also think they're priced a bit high but im chalking that up to a supply and demand thing for this particular rifle .. Posted a link to M4carbine.net where people have described them as being hit or miss as far as accuracy goes. They also go on to describe a lawsuit and some shady business practices from the company.

That being said im between picking up a Modern Materiel and an LWRC other firearm given the options right now.

Why did you discard the Troy and Dark Storm?

As far as accuracy... what are the expectations?

I have two guns right now and should have the LWRC soon, so will do accuracy testing on all 3.

My own take... with junk bulk ammo I am expecting 2 MOA.  These are not match guns.

With handloads, I think we may see 1.25 MOA...

If shooting at human sized targets, i.e. self defense type of situations, I don't believe accuracy will be an issue.

Let's put it this way... it's like saying I am going to buy the BMW M3 because it can go 180 mph but the Mercedes AMG is limited to 170 mph.

Shooting these guns at anything say past 200... expecting match grade would be kind of stupid.

Besides... if you want to shoot matches with these where accuracy will be needed... get ready to invest more money in triggers, optics (that Dot is not going to help), etc.

If you want an accurate AR... just go buy a White Oak Armanent barrel. 

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I think your accuracy estimations are about my expectations.

 

Its not quite accuracy that concerns me.. Kinda like high exposure said I don't aspire to mediocrity and you get what you pay for. Ive had Troy accessories in the past that I was not happy with. As far as Dark Storm goes ive never heard of them which worries me, I dont like that hogue grip that comes with it (easy fix I know) and lastly that 12 inch forend looks neat on a 12 inch barrel but I worry about my fingers pairing it with that comp. 

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Just now, Kwin said:

I think your accuracy estimations are about my expectations.

 

Its not quite accuracy that concerns me.. Kinda like high exposure said I don't aspire to mediocrity and you get what you pay for. Ive had Troy accessories in the past that I was not happy with. As far as Dark Storm goes ive never heard of them which worries me, I dont like that hogue grip that comes with it (easy fix I know) and lastly that 12 inch forend looks neat on a 12 inch barrel but I worry about my fingers pairing it with that comp. 

Move the foregrip back but you should have no issues with getting your thumb caught.

Dark Storm was fairly heavy into OEM production so other bigger brands.. had DS make the parts.

As far as brands... now that I have 2 of the guns, waiting for LWRC and know a good amount about the MM, Am fairly comfortable with whom each gun works good for.

DS guy was here today and he shot my Troy, had nothing bad to say about it.  Guns were different enough that depending on what features are important to you, you can do it.

As far as accuracy, keep in mind, the more accuracy you want, the quicker the barrel life is going to go, there is definitely a relationship there.  And quite honestly, most of the big OEMs all get their barrels and blanks at the same place. lol.  companies most of us have never heard about .

Accessories?  Everyone has great products and bad products.

Feel free to come out on Tuesday evening to GSSC.  Troy rep will be there with his guns.  I will bring my Troy and my Dark Storm Variant 1... which is the higher end one and oh my... that is a NICE gun.

LWRC should be LWRC.  

Again on the MM, been asking for a gun to demo without pressure for quite a while now. but they are backed up and not really taking other dealer orders (as far as I know) until they catch up on rebarrelling the existing ones due to not making length as per NJSP.

 

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35 minutes ago, Kwin said:

Knocking em for their proprietary rail. Also think they're priced a bit high but im chalking that up to a supply and demand thing for this particular rifle .. Posted a link to M4carbine.net where people have described them as being hit or miss as far as accuracy goes. They also go on to describe a lawsuit and some shady business practices from the company.

That being said im between picking up a Modern Materiel and an LWRC other firearm given the options right now.

1: the lawsuits involve the former owner Paul Lightner-Wise who is eccentric to be as PC as possible. They also have a lawsuit against Sig Sauer for Patent infringement on their short stroke piston which they use in the MCX.

2. Their proprietary rail has pro’s and cons to it. It’s a pain in the ass to get accessories, very few places make direct mount equipment for LWRC rails, you can use the Pic rail attachments but I think it’s more cumbersome that way. The plus side is being the thinnest rail system for a piston gun. Shoot a Sig MCX, 516 or 716 they are not the most ergonomic.

3. Their prices reflect their quality, they manufacture everything house and quality control the fuck out of it. Receivers go through an X-Ray for imperfections, barrels, nickel boron parts are all made in house. Say your basic AR cost $800. You then put a new rail, piston retrofit, nickel boron BCG, H2 buffer, ambidextrous controls and cerakote the gun, you’re looking to spend the same amount of money.

The only upgrades I’ve done to mine is I changed the stock for a Magpul SL and installed a Geissele SSA-E, which i could have gotten for cheaper from the factory.

that said it’s not the holy grail of AR-15’s. The piston system heats the gun up real fast, you also get carbon all over your hands because of the piston, not the end of the world but it’s an inconvenience. For what I paid for mine, $2000 it’s a damn good rifle and I don’t feel like I overpaid. 

I like my SR-15 a lot more because I paid $1600 for it, that’s a different story.

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8 hours ago, Maksim said:

As far as accuracy, keep in mind, the more accuracy you want, the quicker the barrel life is going to go, there is definitely a relationship there.  And quite honestly, most of the big OEMs all get their barrels and blanks at the same place. lol.  companies most of us have never heard about .

This is all true. I do know the MM uses a Ballistic Advantage barrel. Never heard of them but after some searching they seem to be a fairly legit barrel maker with great reviews and they guarantee sub MOA with match ammo. Not sure what that’s worth lol. From my range trip it’s had no problems hitting on a 4”& 8” plates at 50 & 100 yards. Did not try to group any shots as I was just shooting steel with some buddies. If I can get out to the range this weekend I will post some results. 

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1 hour ago, GramGun79 said:

This is all true. I do know the MM uses a Ballistic Advantage barrel. Never heard of them but after some searching they seem to be a fairly legit barrel maker with great reviews and they guarantee sub MOA with match ammo. Not sure what that’s worth lol. From my range trip it’s had no problems hitting on a 4”& 8” plates at 50 & 100 yards. Did not try to group any shots as I was just shooting steel with some buddies. If I can get out to the range this weekend I will post some results. 

Ballistic Advantage barrels are good to go. A lot of manufacturers use their barrels in builds. 

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2 hours ago, GramGun79 said:

This is all true. I do know the MM uses a Ballistic Advantage barrel. Never heard of them but after some searching they seem to be a fairly legit barrel maker with great reviews and they guarantee sub MOA with match ammo. Not sure what that’s worth lol. From my range trip it’s had no problems hitting on a 4”& 8” plates at 50 & 100 yards. Did not try to group any shots as I was just shooting steel with some buddies. If I can get out to the range this weekend I will post some results. 

 

1 hour ago, shooter28 said:

Ballistic Advantage barrels are good to go. A lot of manufacturers use their barrels in builds. 

BA barrels are quite good... BUT not sure if those are currently the ones they use in Non-NFA guns. Will ask Joe.  Keep in mind they had to replace barrels for the length. 

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Ballistic Advantage make the SBF barrels for MM.

They are the same barrel as in their Patrol model - Govt profile, 4150 steel, black nitride - just cut down to the 11.75” specifically for MM.

I have experience with these barrels in their Patrol rifle:

1fFRHxE.jpg

wlhMk6X.jpg

50 yards, prone, no rest, Fed 64gr TRU. Best 2 groups of the day while confirming zero prior to a low-light shooting class.

These barrels can shoot.

 

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2 hours ago, Maksim said:

 

BA barrels are quite good... BUT not sure if those are currently the ones they use in Non-NFA guns. Will ask Joe.  Keep in mind they had to replace barrels for the length. 

They are for the 11.5  I was at the shop when they put mine together.  I don't recall if Joe said the longer barrels are also BA. 

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Ballistic Advantage make the SBF barrels for MM.

They are the same barrel as in their Patrol model - Govt profile, 4150 steel, black nitride - just cut down to the 11.75” specifically for MM.

I have experience with these barrels in their Patrol rifle:

1fFRHxE.jpg

wlhMk6X.jpg

50 yards, prone, no rest, Fed 64gr TRU. Best 2 groups of the day while confirming zero prior to a low-light shooting class.

These barrels can shoot.

 

looks good enough for me

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3 hours ago, GramGun79 said:

looks good enough for me

Now just need to move it out to 100 yards where things will matter more for accuracy....

But yes, for home defense or the purpose of 99% of users... these will all be accurate enough.  

But also have to keep in mind, will depend on the ammo you are putting in.  Garbage in... Garbage out. 

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36 minutes ago, Maksim said:

 

But also have to keep in mind, will depend on the ammo you are putting in.  Garbage in... Garbage out. 

I think people should realize that garbage ammo includes "plinking rounds" of every major brand... I wouldn't expect MOA from anything under $15.00/box20.

 

people really underestimate the variances in bullet weights and power charges in high volume manufactured ammo. Half a grain may not seem like much but it really is. 

 

@GRIZ  Do you know if MM would sell just the barrel?

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2 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I think people should realize that garbage ammo includes "plinking rounds" of every major brand... I wouldn't expect MOA from anything under $15.00/box20.

 

people really underestimate the variances in bullet weights and power charges in high volume manufactured ammo. Half a grain may not seem like much but it really is. 

 

@GRIZ  Do you know if MM would sell just the barrel?

You can ask @Modern Materiel yourself. They are a vendor here after all. =P  And yes, Joe does read the posts.  I do have a call with him later today after the Smith Wesson earnings call. 

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3 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I think people should realize that garbage ammo includes "plinking rounds" of every major brand... I wouldn't expect MOA from anything under $15.00/box20.

 

people really underestimate the variances in bullet weights and power charges in high volume manufactured ammo. Half a grain may not seem like much but it really is. 

 

@GRIZ  Do you know if MM would sell just the barrel?

Or you can just buy it direct.  $116.

https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/ar15-barrels/556-nato?barrel_length=44

currently out of stock but should be in soon. 

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