Build guide for non-nfa?

[EngineerJet 128]

What does everyone think about a build guide? While there are some who follow this topic very closely and know the ins and outs of what is allowed or not, there may be a few stragglers or newcomers that are overwhelmed by the information and myriad of letters and opinions from the NJSP. Nothing about the guide should be taken as legal advice obviously, as there are some who are not sure if they want to take that leap given the NJSP "guidance". More of a "well, I'm willing to build my own and I'd like to know what the bounds are" guide. The following is what I've come up with. If there is a mistake please let me know.

Some key points mentioned so far:

1. Must have a pistol brace
2. Must have a vertical fore grip (no hand stops or angled fore grips. Some vertical grips have a light angle, such as the BCM VFG but should be fine.
3. Overall length of over 26" (does not include muzzle device unless it is permanently attached.)
    3a. If overall length is over 26" without the muzzle device, it does not need to be pinned/welded.
4. Evil feature list does not apply since it is a firearm and not a rifle or pistol (flash hiders and bayonet lugs good to go)

As for length barrels, see the chart (credit to u/saucenet on reddit). 10.5 will be the shortest you can go and still get up to 26"
 

[PK90 3,369]

Oh no. The horror. Don't you know that you're taking a chance with a build as opposed to buying one for twice the price and the security it brings from the man?

[Blacksmythe 71]

You know my opinion...., build it anyway  I think this is a good idea. I wish I was camera savvy. A fellow shot  mine and  I shot his which was one of the main offerings. He liked mine better. 

[JackDaWack 2,370]

Build guide? its an ar-15. 26" OAL, FVG, no stock.

[EngineerJet 128]

2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Build guide? its an ar-15. 26" OAL, FVG, no stock.

Thats true, but it may not paint the full picture to someone who may have never built an AR but want to try their hand at non-nfa. For example, that description doesnt address if flashhiders are ok or not, which they are. Theres more details that builders may need to know.

[JackDaWack 2,370]

29 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

Thats true, but it may not paint the full picture to someone who may have never built an AR but want to try their hand at non-nfa. For example, that description doesnt address if flashhiders are ok or not, which they are. Theres more details that builders may need to know.

If you never built one before, i don't entirely see the point starting with one of these.. 

It doesn't have to meet NJ AWB, so you are free to do what you want.

 

This is all in the non-NFA sticky thread at the top of this subforum.  

[EngineerJet 128]

1 minute ago, JackDaWack said:

If you never built one before, i don't entirely see the point starting with one of these.. 

It doesn't have to meet NJ AWB, so you are free to do what you want. 

Thats the beautiful thing about having freedom to do what you want. You may not see the point of building one of these before an AR, but someone might. Especially since the options are limited for non-nfa compared to the endless configurations of regular ARs you can walk into any store and look at.

[JackDaWack 2,370]

Just now, EngineerJet said:

Thats the beautiful thing about having freedom to do what you want. You may not see the point of building one of these before an AR, but someone might. Especially since the options are limited for non-nfa compared to the endless configurations of regular ARs you can walk into any store and look at.

I agree. 

However if you are not immersed in the law and all the ATF opinions, you could find yourself in tough spot here in NJ if the wrong eyes figure out its a home build.

[0Jeep4 65]

20 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I agree. 

However if you are not immersed in the law and all the ATF opinions, you could find yourself in tough spot here in NJ if the wrong eyes figure out its a home build.

I still don’t understand how you could be in a tough spot? This is a approved type of firearm. How could it be seen as anything else once completed.  I get the whole “constructive possession” BS. I’m in the process of gathering parts needed to build one and am just curious if I should be scared lol? 

[EngineerJet 128]

13 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I agree. 

However if you are not immersed in the law and all the ATF opinions, you could find yourself in tough spot here in NJ if the wrong eyes figure out its a home build.

Hence, my suggestion for a guide to help the people not immersed.

[Maksim 1,498]

21 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I agree. 

However if you are not immersed in the law and all the ATF opinions, you could find yourself in tough spot here in NJ if the wrong eyes figure out its a home build.

 

14 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

I still don’t understand how you could be in a tough spot? This is a approved type of firearm. How could it be seen as anything else once completed.  I get the whole “constructive possession” BS. I’m in the process of gather parts needed to build one and am just curious if I should be scared lol? 

 

8 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

Hence, my suggestion for a guide to help the people not immersed.

@0Jeep4

Scenario... You are a public range shooting this and an LEO comes up to you asking you, "what is this?  It has a pistol brace, and very short, you must have broken the law, you can't have this in NJ."

Now go ahead and explain to him EXACTLY why the gun IS legal without pissing your pants and stuttering.

"But..but.. but.... They sell these, there are Troys, DSI and MM on the shelf.:"

"And where does it say "Troy, DSI, MM on your gun?"

 

People comfortable with guns and the law and know EXACTLY why these guns are legal and WANT the attention... should build one to save a few bucks or  get what they want.

BUT... what percentage of people are actually comfortable enough to have that conversation?

And what percentage of people WILL screw up the OAL, or put an AFG or a hand stop instead of a VFG, or will order a STOCK instead of a pistol brace?

People not immersed... SHOULD NOT be going out there and meddling in muddy waters, especially when we know the intent and that NJSP wants you to BUY a complete rifle versus building your own.

Unless you want a cheap $500 build to mess around, the $300 price difference is well worth having a letter and far less liability in my opinion, especially if you have ANYTHING to lose. 

You build your own = you are 100% responsible.

You BUY yours = You were sold by FFL/Distributors/Manufacturers and of course the NJSP saying your gun is OKAY!

Bottom line, what I am saying is BUILD YOUR AR RIFLE... as no one is going to bat an eyelash... but Non-NFAs gather a lot of attention... unless you want that attention, it's not worth taking on more risk.

[Maksim 1,498]

and just personally, there is NO CHANCE IN HELL am I risking taking a home build Non-NFA to NJ... and would only take my Troy or DSI with a copy of the letter in the case and on my front seat.

[0Jeep4 65]

  I completely understand stand your points, but I’m pretty sure I can easily explain it’s a non nfa Firearm it’s overall length is over 26” it has a brace and a vfg as it’s designed to be fired with two hands. Should I still be in fear of running foul of the law? 

I overheard the counter guy at RSTP holding the Troy saying it’s a loophole gun it’s basically an “SBR” work around and that’s how it was being sold an advertised, by them inside an FFl. 

Should I really be afraid of using/owning a home built one ? 

[0Jeep4 65]

4 minutes ago, Maksim said:

and just personally, there is NO CHANCE IN HELL am I risking taking a home build Non-NFA to NJ... and would only take my Troy or DSI with a copy of the letter in the case and on my front seat.

You’re lucky enough to live across the river and if I were you, I probably never venture into N.J. at all ever lol. 

[EngineerJet 128]

I completely agree with MAKSIM that you should not build a NON-NFA unless you are prepared to have a conversation. Even if you are 100% in the right, if you cant articulate your point, it wont look good.

I definitely dont want people who are not well versed to buddy the waters. This is why to avoid muddying the waters, a detailed guide could help, so atleast at the minimum, they havent broken any laws. 

[0Jeep4 65]

So out of fear I shouldn’t do it ?

Even though it’s legal ?

I’m extremely confused by all these statements ?

I’m not law enforcement, but both sides of my family have active cops, in N.J. and else where. I have a BA in criminal justice and have a lot of pre law classes under my belt.  I’d be extremely clam and confident having a discussion with anyone about the weapon, but I still shouldn’t build it based on what exactly? Fear? Stockholm syndrome? I understand you guys are just looking out for worst case etc but really what could happen? They drag me in the firearm unit gets the weapon it matches their classification. 

Everyone keeps talking about the letter why also talking about MM, but they aren’t on the letter, they weren’t “approved” individually like the Troy and DSI. How is MM g2g it doesn’t have a letter? 

[Maksim 1,498]

6 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

So out of fear I shouldn’t do it ?

Even though it’s legal ?

I’m extremely confused by all these statements ?

I’m not law enforcement, but both sides of my family have active cops, in N.J. and else where. I have a BA in criminal justice and have a lot of pre law classes under my belt.  I’d be extremely clam and confident having a discussion with anyone about the weapon, but I still shouldn’t build it based on what exactly? Fear? Stockholm syndrome? I understand you guys are just looking out for worst case etc but really what could happen? They drag me in the firearm unit gets the weapon it matches their classification. 

I think we all answered it.

Yes it is completely legal... BUT so is walking around with an unloaded rifle with an FID. =P  

You just have to look at where you will be shooting it  (i.e. public range like RTSP/Gunforhire/GSSC/ShoreShot/TTC)  where they sell these and understand these... OR at a private club or a place like Range 14 with ROs will be on you to inspect anything questionable.

Then factor in what is more important to you and WHY you want to build your own.  A feature you cannot get?  Or to simply save a few bucks.

If it is about saving money... then...

Is $XXX worth A LOT less peace of mind?

 

With a purchased gun, especially Troy or DSI which have letters from NJSP and not just ATF, whose guns WERE INSPECTED by NJSP... any questions ANYWHERE... show a copy of the letter with the NJSP letterhead and the conversation stops there.

With a home build... get ready to have a conversation.

And yes, "loophole guns" is accurate.  It was a gun designed and build specifically to get around existing NJ and CT draconian gun laws.

And pretty much every manufacturer who makes these, that I spoke with, expects this to get closed in the future.

[EngineerJet 128]

5 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

So out of fear I shouldn’t do it ?

Even though it’s legal ?

I’m extremely confused by all these statements ?

I’m not law enforcement, but both sides of my family have active cops, in N.J. and else where. I have a BA in criminal justice and have a lot of pre law classes under my belt.  I’d be extremely clam and confident having a discussion with anyone about the weapon, but I still shouldn’t build it based on what exactly? Fear? Stockholm syndrome? I understand you guys are just looking out for worst case etc but really what could happen? They drag me in the firearm unit gets the weapon it matches their classification. 

Not that you shouldnt do it. But if you do, be prepared to have a conversation (no matter how unlikely). I've never had law enforcement eye me down when i have 10 round pmags in 30 round bodies. I think for the most part you'll be fine. But there is a chance you should be prepared for it. Thats my opinion.

[0Jeep4 65]

   I just been really struggling with build or buy, sorry if I came off combative. I really wanted to support local, pricing isn’t an issue I just want higher end parts and I don’t feel like buying an approved one to rip it apart and basically rebuild it with the parts I want. Idk though how everyone feels about building your own I might take that route. Just buy an approved version dump the stock parts and put in what I want, but that just adds more $ to the whole thing. 

[EngineerJet 128]

Im not against buying at all. They put in the work and are free to sell. Me personally I can build one for cheaper using all the same (relevant) parts. 

[shooter28 150]

The thought occurred to me- this non-NFA is a great way to get an SBR-like rifle here in NJ but why not build all AR type guns going forward as non-NFA? I get the brace isnt quite as comfortable as some of the stocks out there but you can now build 14.5", 16", 18", etc, ARs as non-NFA and you dont need to worry about any of the NJ AWB rules. Adjustable brace, flash hiders, bayo lugs, and muzzle devices that dont need to be pinned. Or am I missing something? 

[Blacksmythe 71]

27 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

The thought occurred to me- this non-NFA is a great way to get an SBR-like rifle here in NJ but why not build all AR type guns going forward as non-NFA? I get the brace isnt quite as comfortable as some of the stocks out there but you can now build 14.5", 16", 18", etc, ARs as non-NFA and you dont need to worry about any of the NJ AWB rules. Adjustable brace, flash hiders, bayo lugs, and muzzle devices that dont need to be pinned. Or am I missing something? 

Yes, you are missing something. Do a little more research.  

[PK90 3,369]

4 minutes ago, Blacksmythe said:

Yes, you are missing something. Do a little more research.  

Explain

[shooter28 150]

2 minutes ago, Blacksmythe said:

Yes, you are missing something. Do a little more research.  

Care to elaborate?

Not a rifle because there is no stock.

Not a pistol because the VFG necessitates the use of 2 hands

Not a AOW because it's over 26". Is there a maximum OAL it cant exceed?

[EngineerJet 128]

8 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

Care to elaborate?

Not a rifle because there is no stock.

Not a pistol because the VFG necessitates the use of 2 hands

Not a AOW because it's over 26". Is there a maximum OAL it cant exceed?

I was thinking the same thing. AFAIK, there is no OAL maximum and the key criteria that other firearms must meet is as you stated.

The difference with the pistol braces that i've found is that you dont get the same extended length since the pistol brace adjustment at its limit is considerably shorter than a stock.

The only real difference in having an other firearm that is set up the same way as a rifle is to have a flash hider and some range of adjustment on the brace. The real benefit that, in my opinion, is the selling point of these firearms is being able to have a sub 16" barrel. Some claim its not that big of a deal but personally it feels amazing. My 11.5 firearms is much more easy to handle in my house than my BCM AR15 with 16" barrel.

[shooter28 150]

13 minutes ago, EngineerJet said:

I was thinking the same thing. AFAIK, there is no OAL maximum and the key criteria that other firearms must meet is as you stated.

The difference with the pistol braces that i've found is that you dont get the same extended length since the pistol brace adjustment at its limit is considerably shorter than a stock.

The only real difference in having an other firearm that is set up the same way as a rifle is to have a flash hider and some range of adjustment on the brace. The real benefit that, in my opinion, is the selling point of these firearms is being able to have a sub 16" barrel. Some claim its not that big of a deal but personally it feels amazing. My 11.5 firearms is much more easy to handle in my house than my BCM AR15 with 16" barrel.

I totally agree that the real point to this would be a way to make the guns shorter. An 11.5 will be easier to handle than a 16" without question.

I guess I was just pondering the idea for people here who let their smaller framed wives/kids shoot their guns who arent looking to build a shorter gun. You have the flexibility to accommodate different sized shooters. I have my brace in the closet but havent played with it yet so I wasnt aware its fully extended length was that much different than say the fixed magpul carbine stock. 

[EngineerJet 128]

27 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

I totally agree that the real point to this would be a way to make the guns shorter. An 11.5 will be easier to handle than a 16" without question.

I guess I was just pondering the idea for people here who let their smaller framed wives/kids shoot their guns who arent looking to build a shorter gun. You have the flexibility to accommodate different sized shooters. I have my brace in the closet but havent played with it yet so I wasnt aware its fully extended length was that much different than say the fixed magpul carbine stock. 

there is a noticeable difference. For one the brace is a bit shorter than a stock. Then there is also the retention pin, which is further forward on a stock than a brace, allowing it to extend further out. Its not a huge difference but it is noticeable. I made a rough drawing to illustrate what I mean. It is not 100% to scale but close enough.

[Contrvlr 17]

1 hour ago, EngineerJet said:

there is a noticeable difference. For one the brace is a bit shorter than a stock. Then there is also the retention pin, which is further forward on a stock than a brace, allowing it to extend further out. Its not a huge difference but it is noticeable. I made a rough drawing to illustrate what I mean. It is not 100% to scale but close enough.

 1.25 inches , have both in front of me now.

[Jdoug075 9]

i did a bcm 11.5 inch build with a milspec receiver ext. got 25 7/8 inch so i was short. i just threw on a vltor a5 buffer system in and now im over 26 inches. didnt need to pin and weld my muzzle device

[EngineerJet 128]

11 hours ago, Jdoug075 said:

i did a bcm 11.5 inch build with a milspec receiver ext. got 25 7/8 inch so i was short. i just threw on a vltor a5 buffer system in and now im over 26 inches. didnt need to pin and weld my muzzle device

I also got exactly 25 7/8.

If anything we should just weld a spacer to the end of the existing buffer tube and put the brace over it... all we need is that 1/8