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Redfield.C

Firearm at family business

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Howdy Folks, 

My wife and I are PA residents, but my wife works for her family business in the Newark area. I really dislike that she has to go unarmed everyday to work. She carries all the time in PA and is well trained (always training), but sadly. NJ has some stupid laws when it comes to guns. I feel bad for you guys. Hoping things will turn around there soon! Heck, if there is a protest, within a couple hours from me, I would totally drive there to help! 

Anyway, One of the owners of the company (her family). Has been thinking about getting a shotgun (Mossberg 500 most likely), to have with them when they are working late some nights. I have a strange feeling this isn't legal. So thought I would ask on here before hiring a lawyer to find out.

Also is it true that self defense isn't legal in NJ? 

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Other folks here have more intimate knowledge of the law.. they will weigh in. But, I am "pretty sure" that if you own the gun, then you're allowed to have it in your home - OR - at a business that you own. As I said, others will weigh in with more detail, I'm sure.

Mainly though, I just wanted to say thank you for the sentiment! We should all - as gun owners - regularly support fellow gun owners in neighboring states. I recall someone on here recently posted something about an upcoming event in Harrisburg that he planned to attend - so, it's a 2-way street! :)

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52 minutes ago, Redfield.C said:

One of the owners of the company (her family). Has been thinking about getting a shotgun (Mossberg 500 most likely), to have with them when they are working late some nights.I have a strange feeling this isn't legal. 

Legal.

Place of business you own is one of the few places where you can keep a gun.

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59 minutes ago, Redfield.C said:

Howdy Folks, 

My wife and I are PA residents, but my wife works for her family business in the Newark area. I really dislike that she has to go unarmed everyday to work. She carries all the time in PA and is well trained (always training), but sadly. NJ has some stupid laws when it comes to guns. I feel bad for you guys. Hoping things will turn around there soon! Heck, if there is a protest, within a couple hours from me, I would totally drive there to help! 

Anyway, One of the owners of the company (her family). Has been thinking about getting a shotgun (Mossberg 500 most likely), to have with them when they are working late some nights. I have a strange feeling this isn't legal. So thought I would ask on here before hiring a lawyer to find out.

Also is it true that self defense isn't legal in NJ? 

You have a duty to not instigate/retreat.

but judged or carried by your peers is your call.

 

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As a hypothetical, a  principal who works in a business in NJ and who either owns or leases the business premises or where it is owned or leased in the name of a business entity and who is otherwise not disqualified from possessing a firearm can keep a shotgun at fixed business premises and can use the shotgun if the use of a deadly weapon is justified under the circumstances. The residence of the principal is irrelevant. The foregoing is not legal advice as no attorney-client relationship exists and is general information only.

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If a person works at a business in nj.   A.  They can only posses a longarm there  if they have a nj fid card. B.  If they do not have lease or ownership of said property and want to have their pistol there.  They can not  posses.    Out of state residence.  Fopa laws apply only for transport.  Thats why residency is important with this.  If they are the leasee/owner.   They can have a pistol on premises.  If the owner/leasee has a firearm on premise and an employee uses it    That employee can be charged with - i forget at this point how it goes.  But they’ll be charged with something.  For example.   If you’re from va and are doing a pistol or rifle shoot you can not legally stay at a hotel in nj overnight with your firearms.  I wish i was wrong.  But that how i see it.   Please correct me if im wrong.   Rosie.  Where you at.  Please chime in.  

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I think if you own the land there are no restriction. I have studied this issue very closely  years back , when I owned a few properties in NJ, but laws may have changed.

You could also open carry on your land, outside your home or any other land you may own. 

I wouldn't try this though, the NJ cops will put you with the face in the dirt for trying to intimidate the neighbors or something like that

 

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20 hours ago, WP22 said:

Legal.

Place of business you own is one of the few places where you can keep a gun.

Absolutely.  You can keep a long gun with you at all times in NJ, provided that you have an FID card, but you can only have it loaded at home, at a place of business, or while hunting.

 

15 hours ago, Golf battery said:

I would believe it goes back who is on the lease or owns the property.  Also is the leasee /property owner a nj resident?   

If you are the business owner, you do not have to own the property.  If you lease your business space, you can still be legally armed if you are the business owner. 

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20 hours ago, WP22 said:

Legal.

Place of business you own is one of the few places where you can keep a gun.

I'm not sure about that from what I've read. Doesn't she have to be the owner (or leasee) of the property on record? The OP states it's another family member that owns the business, not her, but no detail who owns the land, building or signed the lease or who's on the deed. I would think it would be questionable.

Having a shotgun laying around that anyone can grab is.....

10 hours ago, Golf battery said:

They can only posses a longarm there  if they have a nj fid card.

That's another question, she's a PA resident. Does she have a NJ FID card? Not sure I'd want to test the legal system in Newark.

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11 minutes ago, Sniper said:

I'm not sure about that from what I've read. Doesn't she have to be the owner (or leasee) of the property on record? The OP states it's another family member that owns the business, not her, but no detail who owns the land, building or signed the lease or who's on the deed. I would think it would be questionable.

...

My reply was to "...One of the owners of the company (her family). Has been thinking about getting a shotgun (Mossberg 500 most likely), to have with them when they are working late some nights."

 

 

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21 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

i could be wrong....but i saw no dutty to retreat within ones dwelling in the statute

I sort of agree.  I also agree I, as many here do, would do what I had to do to protect and I'm prepared as such.  I also believe that the statute as many other gun related statues are deliberately written with 4+ means of interpretation.  Just by example of how they will interpret it against you is an article where a home owner and cop (trooper) was defending his property and they tried to nail him.  As a home owner he shouldn't have been able to chase them down the street.  But as a cop he evidently felt, and I agree with him, he could.  But noooooo.    The statute is the statute and we're gonna do what we have to but I'll bet if they find you could have gone out the back door as the scum bag was coming in the front you're gonna have a case on your hands.  NJ has limited castle laws so good luck to us all.

https://www.nj.com/sussex-county/2015/08/castle_stand-your-ground_sparta_trooper_teens.html

 

Article excerpt:

In Florida, for instance, a person under attack can use deadly force to defend himself or herself, even if that person has an opportunity to get away.

"We have a duty to retreat in New Jersey -- which is basically the opposite of stand-your-ground," Farrow said.  This Tim Farrow guy is a criminal defense attorney with a specialty in self defense laws. 

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18 hours ago, Golf battery said:

If a person works at a business in nj.   A.  They can only posses a longarm there  if they have a nj fid card. B.  If they do not have lease or ownership of said property and want to have their pistol there.  They can not  posses.    Out of state residence.  Fopa laws apply only for transport.  Thats why residency is important with this.  If they are the leasee/owner.   They can have a pistol on premises.  If the owner/leasee has a firearm on premise and an employee uses it    That employee can be charged with - i forget at this point how it goes.  But they’ll be charged with something.  For example.   If you’re from va and are doing a pistol or rifle shoot you can not legally stay at a hotel in nj overnight with your firearms.  I wish i was wrong.  But that how i see it.   Please correct me if im wrong.   Rosie.  Where you at.  Please chime in.  

I do not understand what you are saying. Initially you said that a person who works at a business can posses a longarm if they have a nj fid card. Then you say if the owner/leasee has a firearm on premises and the employee uses it, the employee can be charged. If the owner/leasee has a longarm and the the employee has a FID card and uses the owner/leasee longarm in self defense, are you saying the employee can be charged with a crime??

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If the owner of the business keeps a firearm there and an employee uses it to legitimately defend themselves they might be charged with a crime.  I dont think they would be charged.  Exigent circumstances are a defense to breaking the law.

 

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56 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

If the owner of the business keeps a firearm there and an employee uses it to legitimately defend themselves they might be charged with a crime.  I dont think they would be charged.  Exigent circumstances are a defense to breaking the law.

 

It’s all a crap shoot. 

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1 hour ago, BobA said:

It’s all a crap shoot. 

More likely wouldn't be charged.  Much better odds than craps.

Someone using someone else's gun to save their's or someone else's life is not a case a prosecutor would want to take to trial.   

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9 hours ago, GRIZ said:

If the owner of the business keeps a firearm there and an employee uses it to legitimately defend themselves they might be charged with a crime.  I dont think they would be charged.  Exigent circumstances are a defense to breaking the law.

They can just reference the Joe Biden defense below:

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Joe_Biden7.png

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On 9/16/2019 at 1:19 PM, Redfield.C said:

Howdy Folks, 

My wife and I are PA residents, but my wife works for her family business in the Newark area. I really dislike that she has to go unarmed everyday to work. She carries all the time in PA and is well trained (always training), but sadly. NJ has some stupid laws when it comes to guns. I feel bad for you guys. Hoping things will turn around there soon! Heck, if there is a protest, within a couple hours from me, I would totally drive there to help! 

Anyway, One of the owners of the company (her family). Has been thinking about getting a shotgun (Mossberg 500 most likely), to have with them when they are working late some nights. I have a strange feeling this isn't legal. So thought I would ask on here before hiring a lawyer to find out.

Also is it true that self defense isn't legal in NJ? 

IANAL and this isn't legal advice!

OK, now it's my turn since @Golf battery asked for my help, lol!

Some question(s) first:  Is your wife receiving compensation as an owner of the bidness?  Cash (a bi-weekly or monthly "draw"), securities, stock, or any other corporate transfer that indicates she has a written percentage of the bidness interest?  If YES, she's one of the OWNERS and as such can legally transport an unloaded & cased hand gun per FOPA rules to her bidness in NJ, and upon entering said bidness can strap on a loaded sidearm.  No law exists limiting ownership rights of NJ bidnesses to strictly NJ residents!  If she "just works for the family bidness" and holds no asset value (stocks, bonds, a written percentage a partner would have) in said bidness, she's merely an EMPLOYEE and not an OWNER...So her hand gun rights disappear.  There isn't a restriction on the number of owners of the Very Big Corporation, Inc., so one or twenty owners could all be strapped simultaneously IF they all OWN the bidness together.

The Owner(s) of the company can surround themselves with firearms in every room of said bidness.  There is no restriction as to the number, size or type, so long as they are "Jersey Legal" and devoid of hi-cap mags and "EVIL PA-style features".  One or two hundred, doesn't matter.  No law exists limiting these rights that owners have.  One Mossberg 500 for the entire facility or one for each room is up to the owner(s).

We don't have "Stand Your Ground" in NJ, but as Dirty Harry Callahan was once quoted, "If I see a naked man with a hard-on chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife I know he's not out collecting for the Red Cross".

GRIZ is correct, there isn't a DA or Prosecutor in all 21 counties of NJ that will try a VIC for a "CLEAN shooting" where the forensics prove-out and any REASONABLE person would have done the same thing.

All THAT being said, @Redfield.C since it's your first post here on this forum, I sincerely hope you take the time to READ what folks wrote.  It's been 3 full days & then some since your only post...hoping to hear back from you so I don't feel "Trolled".

image.jpeg.8668f0812fa188259c488d17a68ec3ef.jpeg

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

since it's your first post here on this forum, ....... 

.......It's been 3 full days & then some since your only post...hoping to hear back from you so I don't feel "Trolled".

That seems to happen a lot here.

I wonder if he's Russian (or on Murphy's payroll).

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On 9/17/2019 at 11:48 AM, BobA said:

I sort of agree.  I also agree I, as many here do, would do what I had to do to protect and I'm prepared as such.  I also believe that the statute as many other gun related statues are deliberately written with 4+ means of interpretation.  Just by example of how they will interpret it against you is an article where a home owner and cop (trooper) was defending his property and they tried to nail him.  As a home owner he shouldn't have been able to chase them down the street.  But as a cop he evidently felt, and I agree with him, he could.  But noooooo.    The statute is the statute and we're gonna do what we have to but I'll bet if they find you could have gone out the back door as the scum bag was coming in the front you're gonna have a case on your hands.  NJ has limited castle laws so good luck to us all.

https://www.nj.com/sussex-county/2015/08/castle_stand-your-ground_sparta_trooper_teens.html

 

Article excerpt:

In Florida, for instance, a person under attack can use deadly force to defend himself or herself, even if that person has an opportunity to get away.

"We have a duty to retreat in New Jersey -- which is basically the opposite of stand-your-ground," Farrow said.  This Tim Farrow guy is a criminal defense attorney with a specialty in self defense laws. 

Google NJ v Martinez, 1989

No duty to retreat in this home

The caveat is, this is case law from 1989, may have different outcome today...

you are also instructed that one has no duty to retreat from his own home and may stand his ground and repel an attempt by the assailant to enter or commit a crime therein. The defendant may, under our law, meet the assailant at the threshold of the home and prevent him from entering by any means, including deadly force. Under such circumstances, the homicide is justified and the defendant would be entitled to an acquittal.

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49 minutes ago, leahcim said:

Google NJ v Martinez, 1989

No duty to retreat in this home

The caveat is, this is case law from 1989, may have different outcome today...

you are also instructed that one has no duty to retreat from his own home and may stand his ground and repel an attempt by the assailant to enter or commit a crime therein. The defendant may, under our law, meet the assailant at the threshold of the home and prevent him from entering by any means, including deadly force. Under such circumstances, the homicide is justified and the defendant would be entitled to an acquittal.

I Googled and there was a page of nj vs Martinez. Jinxed name I guess. The closest I got was from 1988 where a screw driver was used. That one?  Anyway doesn’t matter. I assume that in the case you’re sighting he was charged. That’s what got him into court. And I’m glad he got off. He should have. But the immediate impulse of the cops or prosecutors was to charge him. That their mindset. This guy, by today’s standards, would have gone through 10s of thousands on ambulance chasers, maybe lost his job, house, kids college fund, etc. And imagine what his kids and family had to put up with from others for all the time it took. In a stand your ground state it’s decided right at the scene. Here it’s not 1st assumed self defense. It’s assumed if you stood and fought then you’re one of the fighters. Here, in an actual self defense case if charged, you’ll probably get off too. But at what cost over what length of time? We’re gonna do what we gotta do. Don’t get me wrong. But we’re not stand your ground. Far from it. We’re guilty until we can prove or are proven otherwise. 

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3 hours ago, BobA said:

I Googled and there was a page of nj vs Martinez. Jinxed name I guess. The closest I got was from 1988 where a screw driver was used. That one?  Anyway doesn’t matter. I assume that in the case you’re sighting he was charged. That’s what got him into court. And I’m glad he got off. He should have. But the immediate impulse of the cops or prosecutors was to charge him. That their mindset. This guy, by today’s standards, would have gone through 10s of thousands on ambulance chasers, maybe lost his job, house, kids college fund, etc. And imagine what his kids and family had to put up with from others for all the time it took. In a stand your ground state it’s decided right at the scene. Here it’s not 1st assumed self defense. It’s assumed if you stood and fought then you’re one of the fighters. Here, in an actual self defense case if charged, you’ll probably get off too. But at what cost over what length of time? We’re gonna do what we gotta do. Don’t get me wrong. But we’re not stand your ground. Far from it. We’re guilty until we can prove or are proven otherwise. 

Yeah, sorry I didn't elaborate. This case did not involve fire arm,. But judge ruled on no duty to retreat inside your house, regardless of the defensuve weapon.

"The defendant may, under our law, meet the assailant at the threshold of the home and prevent him from entering by any means, including deadly force."

My point was, no duty to retreat in the home.  My other point, this is 30 year old case law, good luck with that today.

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