WWII Aircraft Crashes in CT

[High Exposure 5,661]

This is terrible.

According to my friend in CT, current info is five dead, three critical, two moderate and one minor injury so far.  Three crew, 10 passengers and one guy on the ground.  They are having tough time IDing bodies. Friend of a friend was on the plane at the time of the crash.

https://www.foxnewsDOTcom/us/world-war-ii-era-aircraft-crashes-at-bradley-international-airport-in-connecticut-injuries-reported

I saw this plane fly over my house a couple months back. It comes to NJ annually as part of the Collings Foundation WWII fleet of aircraft.

My son and I checked this plane out a few years ago. It was a beautifully restored B17G called “9-O-9”.

Heartbreaking all around.

[Mrs. Peel 7,156]

Oy... that IS sad! Those shows with the old planes always bring so much joy. A shame to see this happen. 

[Bklynracer 1,263]

Heard about this, sorry to hear about your friends friend.

I enjoy see the old planes, when I lived in Cali. lived near Perris Air Froce base, we went to see the old planes, I liked it and the kids were able to go in most if them.

Sometimes we even saw the Air Force jets take off.

If ever never there with a visit. About 1 hour north of San Diego 

https://www.marchfield.org/aircraft/

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Yikes.  Boeing B-17G Flying Fortress bomber.  So far 7 dead 7 injured

 

[Lakota 342]

Dam that is tragic.  Prayers for your friend of a friend.   

Those planes are awesome though.  Back on fathers day 2013 my son and I took a flight on a B17 out of Teterboro around NYC.  Was the smoothest airplane I have still ever been on in my life and by far one of the best experiences in my life.

 

 

[AVB-AMG 530]

My heart goes out to the family and friends of those 7 people who perished and the others who were injured in the crash today of the B-17 bomber at Bradley International Airport in CT.  It is a horrific and sobering reminder that even with assumed proper maintenance, that these aircraft that are over 70+ years old, even with restorations performed over the years, can be a real risk to fly.

Back in the summer of 2016, while attending the "Wings of Freedom" tour, I flew in the “Nine-O-Nine”, B-17 Flying Fortress that was restored and is maintained by the Collins Foundation, the very same B-17 that crashed today.  It was August of 2016 when I visited the Morristown Airport to see several restored aircraft belonging to the Collins Foundation, including a B-17 Flying Fortress; a B-24J Liberator and a TF-51 Mustang. For a $300 fee, I was able to join some other enthusiasts and flew in the B-17 for about 30 mins. as we did a mock bombing run over Basking Ridge and Bedminster, NJ, (ironically, flying over Trump National Golf Club..., something that is not allowed now if he is there). It was an incredible and memorable experience in an amazing aircraft that was the workhorse bomber in WW II. I remember kneeling just behind and between the pilot and co-pilot during the take off and landing.  Here are some of the photos I took:

AVB-AMG

[Maksim 1,504]

3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

This is terrible.

According to my friend in CT, current info is five dead, three critical, two moderate and one minor injury so far.  Three crew, 10 passengers and one guy on the ground.  They are having tough time IDing bodies. Friend of a friend was on the plane at the time of the crash.

https://www.foxnewsDOTcom/us/world-war-ii-era-aircraft-crashes-at-bradley-international-airport-in-connecticut-injuries-reported

I saw this plane fly over my house a couple months back. It comes to NJ annually as part of the Collings Foundation WWII fleet of aircraft.

My son and I checked this plane out a few years ago. It was a beautifully restored B17G called “9-O-9”.

Heartbreaking all around.

Saw it on airliners.net this morning and the news.  Sorry about the loss.  Was the friend of friend crew or just traveling as pax?

Any ideas on cause of accident?  equipment or pilot error? Possibly combination of both?

[Krdshrk 3,877]

1 minute ago, Maksim said:

Saw it on airliners.net this morning and the news.  Sorry about the loss.  Was the friend of friend crew or just traveling as pax?

Any ideas on cause of accident?  equipment or pilot error? Possibly combination of both?

Saw an article and some video - sounded like it was equipment related.  Plane took off then the pilot noticed it was losing altitude... not sure why yet... 

[Maksim 1,504]

1 hour ago, AVB-AMG said:

My heart goes out to the family and friends of those 7 people who perished and the others who were injured in the crash today of the B-17 bomber at Bradley International Airport in CT.  It is a horrific and sobering reminder that even with assumed proper maintenance, that these aircraft that are over 70+ years old, even with restorations performed over the years, can be a real risk to fly.

Back in the summer of 2016, while attending the "Wings of Freedom" tour, I flew in the “Nine-O-Nine”, B-17 Flying Fortress that was restored and is maintained by the Collins Foundation, the very same B-17 that crashed today.  It was August of 2016 when I visited the Morristown Airport to see several restored aircraft belonging to the Collins Foundation, including a B-17 Flying Fortress; a B-24J Liberator and a TF-51 Mustang. For a $300 fee, I was able to join some other enthusiasts and flew in the B-17 for about 30 mins. as we did a mock bombing run over Basking Ridge and Bedminster, NJ, (ironically, flying over Trump National Golf Club..., something that is not allowed now if he is there). It was an incredible and memorable experience in an amazing aircraft that was the workhorse bomber in WW II. I remember kneeling just behind and between the pilot and co-pilot during the take off and landing.  Here are some of the photos I took:

AVB-AMG

Heh.

I have no problem flying on older aircraft as long as we know that maintenance and inspections were done.

I don't think there was a reason released yet, but likely pilot error?  Or at least as a contributing factor.

Reminds me, to check up on that transport crash in KS iirc a month or so ago.

[High Exposure 5,661]

2 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Saw it on airliners.net this morning and the news.  Sorry about the loss.  Was the friend of friend crew or just traveling as pax?

Any ideas on cause of accident?  equipment or pilot error? Possibly combination of both?

F of a F was a paying passenger up for a 30 ride.

No idea on what happened for sure. I heard they lost an engine on takeoff. The pilot tried to land but struck the de-icing facilities.

[Maksim 1,504]

12 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

F of a F was a paying passenger up for a 30 ride.

No idea on what happened for sure. I heard they lost an engine on takeoff. The pilot tried to land but struck the de-icing facilities.

Overweight possibly?  Yikes... 

Do they even have flight data recorders on these?  anything modernized in these or they all original steam gauges?  Prayers for the families... certainly an all around crappy situation.

[pasu0115 200]

What a shame! I have seen some of these old warplanes in person both on the ground and in flight ( Never flew in one!). They are amazing pieces of history! 

[Maksim 1,504]

From airliners.net

Press conference underway now. The B17 hit an ILS stanchion at the end of Runway 6 and veered into the de-ice area.

(I live nearby. She flew over my place at maybe 200 feet AGL as she was trying to make the turn to a v

 

[10X 3,296]

46 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Overweight possibly?  Yikes... 

Do they even have flight data recorders on these?  anything modernized in these or they all original steam gauges?  Prayers for the families... certainly an all around crappy situation.

I doubt it was overweight, since it wouldn't have had a bomb load and enough fuel to reach Dresden.  The number of passengers wasn't much more than the crew of 9 it flew in combat.

A secondhand report on a pilot board I frequent said they lost the #3 engine on takeoff, and didn't have enough power or altitude to make the turn back to the field.  The NTSB will spend the next year trying to figure out exactly what happened.

I doubt they added a flight data recorder to the aircraft; they generally keep the restorations on steam gauges, for authenticity, though I see in AVB's cockpit photo that they did sneak a GPS into the instrument panel.

I never got to ride in Nine-0-Nine, or in Aluminum Overcast (which I believe is the aircraft in Lakota's photo), but I have seen the Collings Foundation planes at Morristown Airport, where I'm based, and occasionally over my house, a few miles north of there.

Tragic, all around.

[Maksim 1,504]

3 minutes ago, 10X said:

I doubt it was overweight, since it wouldn't have had a bomb load and enough fuel to reach Dresden.  The number of passengers wasn't much more than the crew of 9 it flew in combat.

A secondhand report on a pilot board I frequent said they lost the #3 engine on takeoff, and didn't have enough power or altitude to make the turn back to the field.  The NTSB will spend the next year trying to figure out exactly what happened.

I doubt they added a flight data recorder to the aircraft; they generally keep the restorations on steam gauges, for authenticity, though I see in AVB's cockpit photo that they did sneak a GPS into the instrument panel.

I never got to ride in Nine-0-Nine, or in Aluminum Overcast (which I believe is the aircraft in Lakota's photo), but I have seen the Collings Foundation planes at Morristown Airport, where I'm based, and occasionally over my house, a few miles north of there.

Tragic, all around.

sounds like a failed "impossible turn"  terrible all around.

On the B17s, if one engine fails, shouldn't they have enough power to still take off and get to altitude?  Or am I thinking too modern?  

[Kevin125 4,772]

Losing an engine on take off and trying to return to the runway is often the beginning of a horrible outcome.  I’ve never flown anything as large as a B17 but with one engine windmilling and even the three remaining engines at full power, particularly if the dead engine is left outboard engine, it may be very difficult to control the aircraft at low speed with the gear down.  Making a turn makes everything worse in terms of performance and directional control.  And at low altitude.... its the one scenario, aside from a fire onboard, that a pilot never wants to see.

Its a terrible situation.  I hope the survivors recover. And my heart goes out to all of their families.

 

[Kevin125 4,772]

29 minutes ago, Maksim said:

sounds like a failed "impossible turn"  terrible all around.

On the B17s, if one engine fails, shouldn't they have enough power to still take off and get to altitude?  Or am I thinking too modern?  

Commercial jets can climb with an engine out if they made rotation speed.  I wouldn’t expect a B17 to have a lot climb performance after losing an engine at rotation.  The first thing to consider, and they would know the answer before they started rolling, is are they able to stop on the runway if they lose an engine at or before rotation. Its part of the preflight of any heavy multi engine aircraft.

And I seriously doubt they were over max t/o or landing weight weight.  B17s carried 15k or 20k lbs of bombs with a whole lot of fuel onboard.  They probably had a light load and something less than full fuel.  People who operate big aircraft try to avoid hauling around excessive amounts of fuel they aren’t going to use.

I would expect that the pilots did everything they could to save the aircraft.  Sometimes the situation is beyond the ability of any human to recover it.  

[10X 3,296]

22 minutes ago, Maksim said:

sounds like a failed "impossible turn"  terrible all around.

On the B17s, if one engine fails, shouldn't they have enough power to still take off and get to altitude?  Or am I thinking too modern?  

I would have thought so: feather the prop on the dead engine, raise the gear, get the flaps to whatever setting is appropriate, and establish a slow climb straight ahead until you have enough altitude to turn back. But I’ve no flying experience that is relevant here, beyond knowing that an engine out on takeoff is a nightmare scenario, even-or perhaps moreso-in a multi engine plane.  You have to do a lot of things quickly, perfectly, and in exactly the right sequence.  And if something else is wrong, like the other engines aren’t making rated horsepower or the prop won’t feather or you simply waste too many seconds thinking “what the #!%*#”, it’s all for naught. 

[Kevin125 4,772]

Right... or one of those secondary issues distracts the pilot in command.  Too many accidents have happened because no one was flying the plane.  Not saying that happened here. I obviously have no idea.  But rule one is.... Fly the Plane.

At 50,000 lbs on four engines it looks like they get about 1000 fpm of climb at sea level on a 50 degree day.  If they got the aircraft cleaned up quickly, then I’d think they should have a positive climb rate of some sort on three engines. Even on a sorta hot day like today.  And like you said....straight ahead...unless you’re gonna hit something.  

But in the real world things almost never work out as well as what it says in the book.  That said, what I’ve heard about the pilots that fly these old birds are pretty damn good.

 

 

[Maksim 1,504]

46 minutes ago, Kevin125 said:

Right... or one of those secondary issues distracts the pilot in command.  Too many accidents have happened because no one was flying the plane.  Not saying that happened here. I obviously have no idea.  But rule one is.... Fly the Plane.

At 50,000 lbs on four engines it looks like they get about 1000 fpm of climb at sea level on a 50 degree day.  If they got the aircraft cleaned up quickly, then I’d think they should have a positive climb rate of some sort on three engines. Even on a sorta hot day like today.  And like you said....straight ahead...unless you’re gonna hit something.  

But in the real world things almost never work out as well as what it says in the book.  That said, what I’ve heard about the pilots that fly these old birds are pretty damn good.

 

 

Ok, so not going crazy... on 3 engines, way below max tow, fly straight, gain altitude, trouble shoot if you can, then head back... or heck, if there is another airport where you don't need to turn around and a runway along the way, go there... or start looking for corn fields or golf courses. (not familiar with Bradley area, never flew there).

[Lakota 342]

@10X The one i was on is called The Yankee Lady.  https://yankeeairmuseum.org/fly/

[1LtCAP 4,262]

12 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Saw an article and some video - sounded like it was equipment related.  Plane took off then the pilot noticed it was losing altitude... not sure why yet... 

yea. one of the articles i'd read said that one of the pilots reported an engine failure or some form of engine trouble. sadly, in that same article there was a certain person of a certain "profession" calling for more "oversight and regulation" already.

 

 this is a crying shame for the victims and their families, and for the loss of a classic beautiful aircraft. at one time she was the queen of the skies.  i'd toured this aircraft both at kissimme/gateway airport back in the early 2000's, and at trenton/mercer also in the early 2000's. never got to fly in her.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

11 hours ago, 10X said:

I doubt it was overweight, since it wouldn't have had a bomb load and enough fuel to reach Dresden.  The number of passengers wasn't much more than the crew of 9 it flew in combat.interesting things i've read, that i never knew before....although she had a reputation for carrying a pretty heavy bomb load....the tradeoff was that they'd take off with only enough fuel to get to/from that destination. the deeper into germany they went, the lower the bomb load so that they could carry the extra fuel for the trip. many times veteran gunners would "sneak" a few hundred rounds of extra ammo onto their ship if they knew their target was particularly well protected.  these aircraft could and did take off over weight back then often times.

A secondhand report on a pilot board I frequent said they lost the #3 engine on takeoff, and didn't have enough power or altitude to make the turn back to the field.  The NTSB will spend the next year trying to figure out exactly what happened.

I doubt they added a flight data recorder to the aircraft; they generally keep the restorations on steam gauges, for authenticity, though I see in AVB's cockpit photo that they did sneak a GPS into the instrument panel.

I never got to ride in Nine-0-Nine, or in Aluminum Overcast (which I believe is the aircraft in Lakota's photo), but I have seen the Collings Foundation planes at Morristown Airport, where I'm based, and occasionally over my house, a few miles north of there.

Tragic, all around.

 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

11 hours ago, Maksim said:

sounds like a failed "impossible turn"  terrible all around.

On the B17s, if one engine fails, shouldn't they have enough power to still take off and get to altitude?  Or am I thinking too modern?  

 i know once they're in flight that a 17 can do amazing things with even 2 failed engines. on take off though? i'm not sure. i would imagine that they may have had enough power to climb to pattern alt, but i've never flown anything that big......

[10X 3,296]

1 hour ago, Lakota said:

@10X The one i was on is called The Yankee Lady.  https://yankeeairmuseum.org/fly/

Ah, another pretty bird!  I saw the unpainted finish, which is the same as Aluminum Overcast. 

According to Wikipedia, there are now only 10 flying B17s left.   And only two flying B29s (FiFi, which has been flying for decades, and Doc, which was only restored to flying condition in 2016)

[10X 3,296]

31 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

 i know once they're in flight that a 17 can do amazing things with even 2 failed engines. on take off though? i'm not sure. i would imagine that they may have had enough power to climb to pattern alt, but i've never flown anything that big......

The B17 was legendary for its’ toughness.  The link below has photos of battle damaged B17s that made it back-hard to imagine those staying in the air.

Reports today say Nine-O-Nine had been in the air for 5+ minutes and was several miles from the airport when they reported the problem, so it wasn’t a classic ‘impossible turn’ scenario, if the reports are correct   Of course, last night ABC described the B17 as a “WWII fighter”, so let’s not give the press too much credit 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiYua7xk4DlAhWRZd8KHTyQCuYQzPwBegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.warhistoryonline.com%2Fmilitary-vehicle-news%2Fincredible-images-of-damaged-b-17-bombers-that-miracilously-made-it-home.html&psig=AOvVaw2SP1GMUDjzyKNCbQQ5iSIG&ust=1570194342490122

[njpilot 671]

Having flown in and out of Bradley many times, they have long runways and a few miles to the northwest are 2 airports, Barnes and Westover which have very long runways. As stated before, things can go bad quickly, low and slow on take-off after an engine loss. 

Not criticizing the pilots, but these pilots don't fly this aircraft everyday. I don't know what kind of refresher training they may do and how frequently. I used to go to Flight Safety International and fly a full motion multi-million dollar simulator twice a year and they would give us multiple failures to try and overload us. It is easy to get distracted. 

It's possible the pilots just messed up. Sad. Eventually we'll find out what happened.

[AVB-AMG 530]

8 hours ago, njpilot said:

Not criticizing the pilots, but these pilots don't fly this aircraft everyday. I don't know what kind of refresher training they may do and how frequently. I used to go to Flight Safety International and fly a full motion multi-million dollar simulator twice a year and they would give us multiple failures to try and overload us. It is easy to get distracted. 

It's possible the pilots just messed up. Sad. Eventually we'll find out what happened.

@njpilot:

FWIW, when I flew as a passenger in the Nine-O-Nine B-17 back in 2016, I asked the pilot how often does he and his co-pilot fly this old bomber.  You may be surprised by his response to me.  He said that taking into account flying to each city/airport location where they are scheduled to appear, along with the flight tours for paying passengers, it works out to be around 4 out of 7 days a week, during their Wings of Freedom tour.  This national tour is held during the milder weather months from spring, into the summer and into fall, so essentially around seven months of the year.  Therefore, I would not be surprised if the pilot who flew the B-17 that I was in, has (had?), more flight time/hours in a B-17 than many of the pilots who flew these bombers back in WW II.

AVB-AMG
 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

3 hours ago, 10X said:

The B17 was legendary for its’ toughness.  The link below has photos of battle damaged B17s that made it back-hard to imagine those staying in the air.

Reports today say Nine-O-Nine had been in the air for 5+ minutes and was several miles from the airport when they reported the problem, so it wasn’t a classic ‘impossible turn’ scenario, if the reports are correct   Of course, last night ABC described the B17 as a “WWII fighter”, so let’s not give the press too much credit 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiYua7xk4DlAhWRZd8KHTyQCuYQzPwBegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.warhistoryonline.com%2Fmilitary-vehicle-news%2Fincredible-images-of-damaged-b-17-bombers-that-miracilously-made-it-home.html&psig=AOvVaw2SP1GMUDjzyKNCbQQ5iSIG&ust=1570194342490122

i've seen those pictures before. incredible what those kids did with so little. imagine being on a 12 hour mission, and nearly half of it is spent fighting that big old airplane?

[AVB-AMG 530]

According to this evening's national news, the pilot of the Nine-O-Nine B-17 that died yesterday in the crash was Ernest  "Mac" McCauley, 75 years old, from Long Beach, CA.  He was the same pilot of Nine-O-Nine when I was a passenger.  The photo I took from the cockpit in my first post shows McCauley at the helm as well as walking around the plane on the tarmac doing his pre-flight inspection.  He was most forthcoming answering all of our questions and one could tell that he really enjoyed his role and job.  May he rest in peace...!

AVB-AMG