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RT10

2 handguns under 30 days by mistake?

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Ok heres the scenario:  A handgun was purchased on 9/30, NICS cleared and everything from a local gun shop.....a week later, a second handgun was purchased online and sent to a different FFL dealer that was told a handgun was just purchased a week ago and FFL dealer was asked to hold it until the 30 days is up. FFL dealer had no problem doing so. FFL received the handgun 10/8.  Heres where the problem is...dont know if the FFL goofed or what, but they ran a NICS check...so thats 2 NICS in just under a week and a half....and IT PASSED!  FFL was told by the buyer that they wont take possession of it until after the 30 days are up just to be safe. Anyone ever experience something like this? asking for a friend. 

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I believe the buyer has to be present when the NICS is run. Did the buyer fill out a 4473? I believe a NICS is only good for a short period of time prior to transfer. One of our FFL members should be able to clarify all of this.

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NICS should never be ran until the buyer is present and ready to legally take possession. I asked an FFL if he could run NICS on me as I would there to pickup in an hour. He informed me that would be illegal!

 Bottom line, the FFL screwed up....Not your friend!

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A gun shop I frequent just recently got inspected by the ATF.  When I asked what they look for during an inspection, one of the things he mentioned is it is illegal to run NICS without the person present to do 4473. Reason being is that if the NICS check results in customer being denied and the customer is not present, he/she may not come in to do the paperwork, thus leaving the shop with a denial on their record with no corresponding 4473 in the shop records.  The ATF looks at all documents for accuracy during their audit but they shows up with a list of all denied applicants and start with those 4473's. 

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A NICS can only be run after a 4473 is filled out at the dealer's location. The person filling it out must sign prior AND they need to be sure of their OGAM date. I believe that the NJ NICS goes by the date of last acquisition and the new NICS date. The person need not be present when the NICS is ran and it is good for 30 days.

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On 10/9/2019 at 4:17 PM, RT10 said:

Ok heres the scenario:  A handgun was purchased on 9/30, NICS cleared and everything from a local gun shop.....a week later, a second handgun was purchased online and sent to a different FFL dealer that was told a handgun was just purchased a week ago and FFL dealer was asked to hold it until the 30 days is up. FFL dealer had no problem doing so. FFL received the handgun 10/8.  Heres where the problem is...dont know if the FFL goofed or what, but they ran a NICS check...so thats 2 NICS in just under a week and a half....and IT PASSED!  FFL was told by the buyer that they wont take possession of it until after the 30 days are up just to be safe. Anyone ever experience something like this? asking for a friend. 

The only way two NICS checks would be approved two weeks apart would be if a LEO exemption was claimed or one of the NICS checks was put in as a long gun only (despite being for a handgun). The computer tells the people who work at NICS whether or not to approve a NICS check with regard to the OGAM statute, they have no control over it.

 

It seems there is a lot wrong in this scenario. NICS checks cannot be run before a 4473 is filled out and signed by the recipient and the type of firearm would have to have been incorrectly reported.

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One time a NJ FFL accidentally sent in a NICS check on my behalf incorrectly logged as a handgun (it was a lower receiver, so they should've gone with "Other"). They noticed the issue when the check was denied on account of a "30 Day Violation" as I had just gotten a handgun two weeks before with them. They contacted the NJSP FIU and cleared it up, and reran a check for "Other" which came back all good to go without any delays.

In spite of all that, guess what? I got a call from a nice detective with the NJSP FIU three weeks later, and he asked me to please confirm that I had been indeed denied that check in error due to a miscategorization by the FFL. I said yes, that was my understanding, the FFL sent it in incorrectly and then had contacted them (The FIU) and cleared it up. We chatted a little in a very amicable way, we said good day to each other, and I was on my way. I've not heard or seen them every since and all my dogs are still very much alive.

I am usually disinclined to answer questions by a police officer, but his very professional and polite ways totally disarmed me. He wasn't on a fishing trip, he just wanted me to confirm the FFL's story, or so it seemed to me. It's been some time so I don't think there is anything more to it than that.

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8 hours ago, runcibleman said:

One time a NJ FFL accidentally sent in a NICS check on my behalf incorrectly logged as a handgun (it was a lower receiver, so they should've gone with "Other"). They noticed the issue when the check was denied on account of a "30 Day Violation" as I had just gotten a handgun two weeks before with them. They contacted the NJSP FIU and cleared it up, and reran a check for "Other" which came back all good to go without any delays.

In spite of all that, guess what? I got a call from a nice detective with the NJSP FIU three weeks later, and he asked me to please confirm that I had been indeed denied that check in error due to a miscategorization by the FFL. I said yes, that was my understanding, the FFL sent it in incorrectly and then had contacted them (The FIU) and cleared it up. We chatted a little in a very amicable way, we said good day to each other, and I was on my way. I've not heard or seen them every since and all my dogs are still very much alive.

I am usually disinclined to answer questions by a police officer, but his very professional and polite ways totally disarmed me. He wasn't on a fishing trip, he just wanted me to confirm the FFL's story, or so it seemed to me. It's been some time so I don't think there is anything more to it than that.

NJ NICS doesn't have a choice of "other" when a NICS check is run, only "long gun" and "handgun". If you are picking up a receiver that is to be built into a long gun (including "other" firearms) the NICS check is run as a long gun. If the receiver or frame you are picking up is intended to build into a handgun then the NICS check is run as a handgun (and a handgun purchase permit is required).

NICS has said there are changes coming soon, so this may or may not change.

Even if the OGAM violation was a mistake on your part, typically a first offender gets a phone explaining the law and a polite warning not to do it again. The guys currently working in the NJSP FIU are all solid helpful people - we couldn't ask for better. While they have a job to do, I can't see them looking to jam someone up who isn't doing truly bad things.

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Soooo, let me get this right and to clarify to others:

All "receivers/frames" are marked "other" on the 4473, but the NJSP want them called in as either a "long gun" purchase utilizing a "Certificate of Eligibilty",  or a "handgun " purchase utilizing a "Permit to Purchase". 

If the NJ NICS were to follow the Federal guideline using "other" as the correct third option, they would need to be able to identify the "other" as a "handgun", which would be used to track OGAM purchases. Seems all that need be done is ask another question on the NICS check. "Was a COE or a P2P used"?

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3 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Soooo, let me get this right and to clarify to others:

All "receivers/frames" are marked "other" on the 4473, but the NJSP want them called in as either a "long gun" purchase utilizing a "Certificate of Eligibilty",  or a "handgun " purchase utilizing a "Permit to Purchase".  Yes

If the NJ NICS were to follow the Federal guideline using "other" as the correct third option, they would need to be able to identify the "other" as a "handgun", which would be used to track OGAM purchases. Seems all that need be done is ask another question on the NICS check. "Was a COE or a P2P used"?  Correct

 

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On 10/9/2019 at 4:17 PM, RT10 said:

Ok heres the scenario:  A handgun was purchased on 9/30, NICS cleared and everything from a local gun shop.....a week later, a second handgun was purchased online and sent to a different FFL dealer that was told a handgun was just purchased a week ago and FFL dealer was asked to hold it until the 30 days is up. FFL dealer had no problem doing so. FFL received the handgun 10/8.  Heres where the problem is...dont know if the FFL goofed or what, but they ran a NICS check...so thats 2 NICS in just under a week and a half....and IT PASSED!  FFL was told by the buyer that they wont take possession of it until after the 30 days are up just to be safe. Anyone ever experience something like this? asking for a friend. 

If this was TWO NICS check listed as HG's in under 30 days - the State Police are going to call the FFL and they are going to call the buyer whom the NICS check was run against.  There is the OGAM rule, and it matters not if your friend took possession or not, as far as they would be concerned IMO, is that your 'friend' tried to circumvent OGAM.

Could cause a visit to the FFL by the State Police - and if they do things can unravel more based on the above scenario.

However, do NOT panic - we have all been there - I had once years ago in the Jan/Feb time frame - I interpreted the law wrong as a true OGAM - not the calendar days.


The call went first to the FFL - the ffl calls me gives me a heads up - tells me to call so&so at XXXX - I speak to a very nice detective whoi questions me as to what happened, told him honest mistake based on the new law etc. - he asked if I was trying to usurp the OGAM law - I said of course not - he laughed and said good as he didnt want to drive all the way up to Sussec Co to arrest me as it is a long ride from Trenton, I said thank God for long rides - I laughed he laughed it was fun - he said enjoy my guns and be safe.  He was actually quite decent about it.

So ride it out - show no intent to break the law and your 'friend' should be ok - *BUT* this is NJ now under Murphy's regime - so you never know.

 

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On 10/10/2019 at 11:04 PM, Oakridgefirearms said:

The only way two NICS checks would be approved two weeks apart would be if a LEO exemption was claimed or one of the NICS checks was put in as a long gun only (despite being for a handgun). The computer tells the people who work at NICS whether or not to approve a NICS check with regard to the OGAM statute, they have no control over it.

 

It seems there is a lot wrong in this scenario. NICS checks cannot be run before a 4473 is filled out and signed by the recipient and the type of firearm would have to have been incorrectly reported.

Nics does screw up... Had a customer pick up a hand gun from me then a week later got a call from another local dealer asking me if i mailed my permits back to the NJSP.. I asked why and he told me the situation... The customer went to his store and  picked up a second handgun a week later.  Nics passed both handgun checks (which is unusual).

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1 hour ago, USRifle30Cal said:

If this was TWO NICS check listed as HG's in under 30 days - the State Police are going to call the FFL and they are going to call the buyer whom the NICS check was run against.  There is the OGAM rule, and it matters not if your friend took possession or not, as far as they would be concerned IMO, is that your 'friend' tried to circumvent OGAM.

Could cause a visit to the FFL by the State Police - and if they do things can unravel more based on the above scenario.

However, do NOT panic - we have all been there - I had once years ago in the Jan/Feb time frame - I interpreted the law wrong as a true OGAM - not the calendar days.


The call went first to the FFL - the ffl calls me gives me a heads up - tells me to call so&so at XXXX - I speak to a very nice detective whoi questions me as to what happened, told him honest mistake based on the new law etc. - he asked if I was trying to usurp the OGAM law - I said of course not - he laughed and said good as he didnt want to drive all the way up to Sussec Co to arrest me as it is a long ride from Trenton, I said thank God for long rides - I laughed he laughed it was fun - he said enjoy my guns and be safe.  He was actually quite decent about it.

So ride it out - show no intent to break the law and your 'friend' should be ok - *BUT* this is NJ now under Murphy's regime - so you never know.

 

Pretty much.. in the case where a OMAG is denied by Nics you will get a phone call and a talking to from the NJSP... legally you did not break any laws since you did not take the gun... In the case where the nics war approved i doubt the NJSP would even call since it was not flagged as a denial... i would not worry to much about it.... If he took the gun he would get a visit once the NJSP entered the permits into the system.

 

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