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Mrs. Peel

Emergency water containers for freezing temps...

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2 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

In my opinion, a 7.5kW to 10kW Kohler diesel standby generator with auto transfer switch is the way to go in this instance.

That's nice, but she said this:

12 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

that's why a portable generator is my next intended purchase! I really should do that sooner rather than later...

Do you think it's necessary to keep a 7.5W to 10kW generator running to keep  some lights on, in between the cycling of the boiler? (not to mention the upfront cost of equipment and installation).

2 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

With propane, one would need a a dozen 20# tanks or couple 100# bottles on hand to ride out a major interruption. 

During Hurricane Sandy, with the system I use, I went three days on one 20# tank. And finding additional tanks was a lot easier than finding gas, with many of the gas stations closed. 20# tanks are everywhere, including most people's backyard.

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1 hour ago, Zeke said:

I should have never given her that book

This is ALL your fault!!! Not only am I expecting the big blackout to occur any minute now... but now other posters are squabbling over what kind of generator I should buy (see above). Oh, dear! This can't end well... it started out as such a nice thread, too!  :cray:

Worst yet, @AVB-AMG has quietly suggested that I read all the Forstchen novels (about an EMP blast) - can you just IMAGINE what I'll be doing after reading THEM? (I probably will be building a bunker... in the blink of an eye, I'll turn into some crazy, wild-eyed prepper chick, frantically digging a giant hole in my background as the neighbors look on...shaking their heads in a mixture of horror and bemusement at my descent into prepper madness). :o 

OK, @Scorpio64 & @Sniper & anyone else - here's more questions/comments (but no squabbling, pls.. after all, this is just a friendly little discussion about apocalyptic scenarios!):

  • I'm not planning on being in my house any more than 2 more years, hence my desire to purchase a portable generator, easily moved to the next locale - so that I'm not investing too heavily in a place I'll be selling. Does that fact impact your opinions...?
  • @Scorpio64 - is the home fuel oil (diesel) supply chain REALLY more reliable than other fuels? In all circumstances? Are we certain about that? In an emergency, I could imagine local supplies maybe being rationed based on need - maybe even directed towards diesel trucks delivering people/supplies - with local households falling dead last in priority. Not at all sure though. Just wondering what you're basing that on...?
  • Also, my understanding is that diesel generators are horribly smelly (this is less of a deal, I would think, with a residential boiler where those fumes are being dispersed from a chimney at the top of your roofline... but perhaps more of an issue when it's at ground level floating in through air gaps, etc.?) Thoughts?
  • Is there a noise difference between the various types of generators based on fuel type (diesel vs gas vs propane) - or is that an irrelevant factor? Is it more about construction of the unit? FYI, @Zeke - has one of those Predator (Honda knockoff) generators - not only are they affordable and well-rated by customers, but OMG, soooo quiet! I'm not just discussing decibels because a quieter model is less nerve-rattling to me and neighbors, but I would also think a quiet generator would attract less attention...?
  • In the whole debate about gas vs. propane - so @Sniper - a carburetor gets clogged by gasoline gunk, so what? I used to watch my dad clean the carb on my old VW bug any number of times. Honestly, it looks like something I could learn easily enough (assuming it's easily accessible in the unit). Moreover, aren't there additives now that help prevent that? Again.... discuss!
  • Also, a little online research reveals there are also generators than can run on gas OR propane (DuroMax was one brand). Hmmm... I can see the benefit of that, quite frankly. It would certainly increase your chances of finding fuel in an emergency (when you don't know WHICH fuel supply chains might be most impacted). Thoughts? 

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Champion 3400-Watt Dual Fuel RV Ready Portable Inverter Generator with Electric Start https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FAWMMEY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Ala6DbGXGD3YS

I have this one, I went with an Inverter generator because I plan on getting a travel trailer in the near future and I have a 98% furnace. 

The eletric start makes it super easy for my wife to start 

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4 minutes ago, fishnut said:

Champion 3400-Watt Dual Fuel RV Ready Portable Inverter Generator with Electric Start https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FAWMMEY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Ala6DbGXGD3YS

I have this one, I went with an Inverter generator because I plan on getting a travel trailer in the near future and I have a 98% furnace. 

The eletric start makes it super easy for my wife to start 

OK, I'm just learning about all of this - was reading up on "inverters" just last night. Sooo… this has the inverter "built-in" to the generator so-to-speak? (It appears that some inverters/generators are separate units unto themselves). But, this is pumping out regular A/C power directly from the unit? And it's dual fuel? Hmmm... interesting!

And yes, electric start is an ABSOLUTE MUST for me! I can't be out there huffing and puffing while I try to use one of those pull-start thingies. No way, Jose! :girlmad: Any outdoor type appliance I buy - lawnmower, whatever - I always insist on an easy push-button start. I mean, injuring yourself defeats the whole purpose of being prepared!

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2 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

I'm not planning on being in my house any more than 2 more years, hence my desire to purchase a portable generator, easily moved to the next locale - so that I'm not investing too heavily in a place I'll be selling. Does that fact impact your opinions...?

Well, that certainly does change the equation.  On one hand, you have the security of 24/7 power, even if you are away, and having a standby genny can only increase the resale value of a house, it could also be the deciding factor whether someone buys your house or another similarly priced one.  A standby genny is an attractive feature and adds value.  OTOH, there's the cost.  Will you recoup the cost of  having a standby installed?  Maybe, possibly, but probably not 100%.  Any depreciation is the cost of having no hassle 24/7 security.

2 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

is the home fuel oil (diesel) supply chain REALLY more reliable than other fuels? In all circumstances? Are we certain about that? In an emergency, I could imagine local supplies maybe being rationed based on need - maybe even directed towards diesel trucks delivering people/supplies - with local households falling dead last in priority. Not at all sure though. Just wondering what you're basing that on...?

Two days after Sandy utterly devastated the Jersey shore (where I live), I saw fuel trucks making deliveries, one right across the street from me.  Home heating oil is highly regulated and the state gives homeowners a lot of protection.  If it's 10 deg outside and your oil is about to run out, or has run out, then you will get a delivery.  I would not volunteer that your genny runs on diesel though.

2 hours ago, Zeke said:

Also, my understanding is that diesel generators are horribly smelly

Handling diesel fuel is terribly smelly.  The odor seems to get everywhere no matter how hard you try to contain it.  Exhaust fumes though, are not bad, especially if the engine is properly tuned.   If you are basing the smelliness of diesel on following @Zeke  in his big ol' pickup truck, that malevolent odor is not the truck. ;).  Diesel exhaust does smell different, but it's no worse than gasoline.  I will have to admit, propane and NG fumes are barely noticeable.

2 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Is there a noise difference between the various types of generators based on fuel type

Inverter type generators are by far the most quiet.  This has more to do with how the generator makes electricity and the typically smaller engines in them, than the fuel type.  Diesel comes in second place because of it's inherently higher torque and the lower RPMs needed to do the same amount of work over time and turn a dynamo.  Gas engines are governed to spin at 3600 RPM, whereas diesel usually  operates at 1800RPM.  Lower RPM = lower noise. 

4 hours ago, Sniper said:

Do you think it's necessary to keep a 7.5W to 10kW generator running to keep  some lights on, in between the cycling of the boiler?

Necessary is a subjective word.  Strictly speaking, having a generator is not at all a necessity, but a luxury.  Most homeowners don't own one and they seem to survive okay.  If one can afford a hassle free standby generator, and keep it running 24/7 when the lights go out, why would anyone in their right mind try to get by with a portable.  The best genny to own and how to use it is simply a matter of how much luxury one can afford.

4 hours ago, Sniper said:

with many of the gas stations closed. 20# tanks are everywhere, including most people's backyard.

When one has anywhere from 150 to 500 gallons of diesel already on site, there is no need to go to the gas station or rummage through people's back yards. 

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OK, if you were talking about a standby diesel generator - I'm definitely not going to go for that. Based on housing prices since I purchased - I would NOT get my money back! I could perhaps tout the little bit of electrical work that leave the house "set up" for a portable generator - and maybe get a little bump there (maybe not) - I possibly even negotiate a sale of the portable generator to the new owner - and just buy another one at the next house. Regardless, if I take any kind of loss with a portable, at least it's a small loss. Whereas I am pretty sure I'll get hosed on the purchase/installation of a big standby generator. So, that's out. I'm not willing to invest money in this short-term location for hassle-free power generation. I might be willing to do that at the NEXT house, mind you... because I'd be planning to be there for many years... but not here.

Sooo… we're down to a portable model, for sure. You make a compelling argument that home fuel oil has been more readily available. I do wonder if that would hold true during something on a much bigger scale than Sandy though... :icon_question:

My next step is to get the electrician in here - have him look at all of my truly critical electrical systems (which I personally think are the boiler, hot water heater, septic pump, refrigerator, clothes washer and a few key lights and outlets - there's a lot of functionality in the house I could live without). Then, I'll take all of this into consideration, get his advice also... and start honing in on the best choice for my situation. 

This was all very helpful input though! Gave me information and ideas to dig into a bit further.

 

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2 hours ago, fishnut said:

Champion 3400-Watt Dual Fuel RV Ready Portable Inverter Generator with Electric Start https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FAWMMEY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Ala6DbGXGD3YS

I have this one, I went with an Inverter generator because I plan on getting a travel trailer in the near future and I have a 98% furnace. 

The eletric start makes it super easy for my wife to start 

I have the Costco version of this one, with 3 propane tanks. And a small window ac unit (no need for backup heat in FL). I can run the ac, fridge, internet and gaming pc for several days on this. Unplug the ac for the microwave when needed. 

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3 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

In the whole debate about gas vs. propane - so @Sniper - a carburetor gets clogged by gasoline gunk, so what? I used to watch my dad clean the carb on my old VW bug any number of times.

Sure, if you're handy with tools, you can certainly drop the bowl and clean the carb. But, is that something you want to deal with when you lose power in a snow storm, and it's 35 degrees out, instead of just firing the genny up? With propane, the carb has no liquid in it, which reduces the chance of any fouling.

3 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Are we certain about that? In an emergency, I could imagine local supplies maybe being rationed based on need - maybe even directed towards diesel trucks delivering people/supplies - with local households falling dead last in priority.

I'm not certain about it either, there are lots of pieces to that puzzle. Do the delivery drivers show up, does the oil company have power to operate and process orders? The bottom line, you want to be self sufficient, and not have to go searching for supplies during a event. Isn't that what prepping is about?

3 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Is there a noise difference between the various types of generators based on fuel type (diesel vs gas vs propane) - or is that an irrelevant factor?

Noise is a factor, between different makes as also between different sizes. A 1000 watt Honda will be quieter than a 6000 watt Generac, so it depends on the size and quality of the unit you get.

Also, regarding the noise, this is one BIG reason why I use batteries for power, and only fire up the genny periodically, to charge batteries, run the furnace and cycle the fridges. One, I don't want to listen to that racket 24/7, second, I don't want to advertise to the neighborhood all day long I have power/generator, and three, it save a TON on fuel needs for the genny.

28 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

My next step is to get the electrician in here - have him look at all of my truly critical electrical systems (which I personally think are the boiler, hot water heater, septic pump, refrigerator, clothes washer and a few key lights and outlets - there's a lot of functionality in the house I could live without).

A transfer switch will set you back like $300, and will control a bunch of circuits. Then, the electrician will probably charge a few hundred to tie it in, depend on where he needs to run the input location. I installed a 6 circuit transfer switch, which handles all the major circuits that I need fired up.

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

When one has anywhere from 150 to 500 gallons of diesel already on site, there is no need to go to the gas station or rummage through people's back yards. 

But the important distinction I made was that the propane has multiple uses. It can be used for auxiliary heat, portable stove, grill as well as the genny. That will be tough to do with diesel.

Plus, thinking you have Plan B covered, because you have a genny, isn't great planning either. A genny is a mechanical item, subject to breakdown, so if this is your ONLY source of power (and heat, lights, cooking, ect.), there better be a Plan C.

A good motto to follow: One is None, Two is One, and Three is where you want to Be.

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4 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

OK, I'm just learning about all of this - was reading up on "inverters" just last night. Sooo… this has the inverter "built-in" to the generator so-to-speak? (It appears that some inverters/generators are separate units unto themselves). But, this is pumping out regular A/C power directly from the unit? And it's dual fuel? Hmmm... interesting!

And yes, electric start is an ABSOLUTE MUST for me! I can't be out there huffing and puffing while I try to use one of those pull-start thingies. No way, Jose! :girlmad: Any outdoor type appliance I buy - lawnmower, whatever - I always insist on an easy push-button start. I mean, injuring yourself defeats the whole purpose of being prepared!

Yes, inverter built in and switch between gas and propane very easily. It has a battery so to start it just push the button. It even came with a poster with the start up sequence on it which I posted In the garage for my wife. She has no problem hooking up the generator to the transfer switch and starting it herself. (I force her to practice a few times a year lol) 

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14 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

Is there a safe word in case the generator doesn't start?

Safety phrase "you can buy every gun you have ever wanted" that way she will never say it and keep on trying till it starts 

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Here's what I have for backup water.  We're pretty rural.  We've lost electric for a week before and have had roads blocked by fallen trees after a derecho that kept us from getting more than a couple of miles from home -far from the nearest store.  It took only 3 days that time to get out with neighbors helping each other to clear roads with their own trucks and chainsaws.

We keep about a dozen gallon jugs of water in the house.  We use bottled water so the "stock" is rotated regularly each time we go to the store for groceries.

I have re-wired our well pump (no city water here) so that it is plug-connected instead of hard wired.  I can use an extension cord to plug the well pump into our portable generator.   Our generator can barely start our 1/2hp well pump so, when we're pumping water I can't use electric for much else.  But that's not a big problem in an emergency.   I don't need to watch TV when I'm in the shower anyway.

I also re-wired our oil-fired furnace so it can be plugged into the generator too - sucks to loose heat in the winter.

If we use up or 12 gallons of water and the generator quits on me or runs out of fuel, I have three 55 gallon plastic drums behind the shop with drinking water.  They freeze every winter and the drums have never been damaged by freezing.

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I have an 8k/10k generator. 

Primarily for well pump, oil furnace, fridge and some lights.. 

It will just barely power all of those things at the same time.  The well takes up almost half the power... 

We limit water usage, and the I go through about 5 gallons a day. 

While the generator idles 90% of the time with such a low load on it... we go through about 5 gallons of gas a day.. I'f I dont run it during the day between 7am and 5pm.

No need to clean a carburetor... stabilize the gas and keep it fresh.. I have a snorkel kit for it in case propane is the only thing on hand. 

 

I shut off the pump circuit and use my electric stove and oven sometimes too... gotta cook.. even the microwave... more genest is better... rather under utilize it then have it running high or surging often. 

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13 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I have an 8k/10k generator. 

Primarily for well pump, oil furnace, fridge and some lights.. 

It will just barely power all of those things at the same time.  The well takes up almost half the power... 

We limit water usage, and the I go through about 5 gallons a day. 

 

No need to clean a carburetor... stabilize the gas and keep it fresh.. I have a snorkel kit for it in case propane is the only thing on hand. 

 

I shut off the pump circuit and use my electric stove and oven sometimes too... gotta cook.. even the microwave... more genest is better... rather under utilize it then have it running high or surging often. 

I can run my well pump(shallow well pump) refrigerator, propane furnace, outlets for modem/router and computer, one TV and a few overhead LED lights all at once off my dual fuel portable generator. To run the eletric stove I have to shut everything elce off and the microwave and well pump cant run at the same time but i have a wood stove so I dont really need to run either. Unlike a standby generator I can also take my generator wherever I need it easily. 

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3 minutes ago, fishnut said:

I can run my well pump(shallow well pump) refrigerator, propane furnace, outlets for modem/router and computer, one TV and a few overhead LED lights all at once off my dual fuel portable generator. To run the eletric stove I have to shut everything elce off and the microwave and well pump cant run at the same time but inhale a wood stove so I dont really need to run either. Unlike a standby generator I can also take my generator wherever I need it easily. 

Mine is portable too, tied into the breaker box.  I personally wouldn't invest in a whole genset.. to much money and it serves a single purpose.. they also burn through fuel since their usually 15k+ watts.

My well is a 3/4hp at 300ft deep. The power bar on my genny is at 65% when its running.. the surge to start must get it to 80%..

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8 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Mine is portable too, tied into the breaker box.  I personally wouldn't invest in a whole genset.. to much money and it serves a single purpose.. they also burn through fuel since their usually 15k+ watts.

My well is a 3/4hp at 300ft deep. The power bar on my genny is at 65% when its running.. the surge to start must get it to 80%..

Ahhh I got ya. Yeah my well is only 30 feet deep and my pump sits on top of my pressure tank in the basement and runs on 110. I'm on the valley floor so I dont have to go deep for water. 

I agree much more versatility with portable generators, mine is also made to twin with another generator to double the power if needed but I definitely dont need that. 

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I have a 14kw Standby generator.   I used to use portables.    

I helped the neighbors over the past few days with their generators.  One had an electric start 6k generator.   The battery turned over the generator about 3 times before it gave out.    Moral of that story is to keep a tender on the battery or better yet, get a generator that includes a built-in battery tender that you plug in.

One neighbor had a great manual transfer switch that allowed you to select circuits.   Works great.  The problem is that when we flipped the water heater on, the generator wasn't able to keep up with the load.  Moral of that story, get a generator sized to your load.

One neighbor had an umbilical, but hadn't gotten around to getting an interlock.   We backfed through the dryer plug.  This is a poor option, but in a pinch it'll do.   

You really need to get an interlock.   At the very least, get a mechanical interlock that bolts onto your electrical panel the prevents both the Main and the genset breakers from being on at the same time.

When I did the house addition on 2012, I horse traded with the wife.  She wanted some things, I wanted the standby generator.   I did much of the install myself.  I poured a pad, dug the trenches and did some of the electric.    It has been great.

Oh and I bought the generator on Amazon ;)

 

 

 

 

 

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I never bothered with the battery on mine. Unless I'm missing something here, these things arent too hard to pull start. Mine goes on with one good pull with the choke. 

If you're older or dont have the strength its definitely good to have it, but for me the battery is more hassle than it's worth. 

I already have 2 bikes and my tractor on battery tenders. 

I hear battery are a must have for the propane since they're a little harder to start.

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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

The well takes up almost half the power... 

Besides the submersible pump, what other well related gear draws current?  Trying to get an idea of the aggregate draw for well water.   I'm guessing that the pump draws around 8A on startup, which is pretty typical for a 220V submersible, that is only 1,760 Watts.  After the motor spins up, it only draws a couple Amps.

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1 hour ago, Malsua said:

You really need to get an interlock.   At the very least, get a mechanical interlock that bolts onto your electrical panel the prevents both the Main and the genset breakers from being on at the same time.

This is true, specially if you backfeed through a dryer outlet (which is REALLY dangerous).

That's why a manual transfer switch is so good. there's no way to backfeed into the panel and main line, (unless a switch goes bad, I guess). Either the circuit in the house is being fed by the main panel or by the generator/transfer switch.

51w3zDTYg5S._SX425_.jpg

28 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

I'm guessing that the pump draws around 8A on startup, which is pretty typical for a 220V submersible, that is only 1,760 Watts.  After the motor spins up, it only draws a couple Amps.

That's an important calculation when deciding on the size of the genny. Factor in surge amps on startup, not running amps, because well pumps, furnaces, fridges, etc. have a surge when they start. Plus, factor what else is already running when a second item surges/starts.

46 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I hear battery are a must have for the propane since they're a little harder to start.

Starting mine is no different than pull starting any gas equipment. Just have to pay attention to the priming sequence.

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7 minutes ago, Sniper said:

This is true, specially if you backfeed through a dryer outlet (which is REALLY dangerous).

That's why a manual transfer switch is so good. there's no way to backfeed into the panel and main line, (unless a switch goes bad, I guess). Either the circuit in the house is being fed by the main panel or by the generator/transfer switch.

51w3zDTYg5S._SX425_.jpg

 

The one neighbor has a similar setup.  The only issue I see with that is routing all the frickin wires.   I really dislike working in electrical panels as there is never enough space.  Adding in a whole bunch of extra wires is a pain in the ass.   It is the perfect option for portables though.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Malsua said:

The one neighbor has a similar setup.  The only issue I see with that is routing all the frickin wires.   I really dislike working in electrical panels as there is never enough space.  Adding in a whole bunch of extra wires is a pain in the ass.   It is the perfect option for portables though.

Yep, I agree with that, it wasn't much fun when I installed mine. Definitely could get curly hair if you stick your fingers or screwdriver in the wrong place. But, it's a straight forward system that anyone can understand, and not worry if the panel or incoming house supply might be energized accidentally.

22 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Interlockswitch.com

Unbelievable ..... :facepalm:

interlock.jpg

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1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

Besides the submersible pump, what other well related gear draws current?  Trying to get an idea of the aggregate draw for well water.   I'm guessing that the pump draws around 8A on startup, which is pretty typical for a 220V submersible, that is only 1,760 Watts.  After the motor spins up, it only draws a couple Amps.

I think the running amps is about 8 and about 2k watts.. so your numbers are close. 

Start surge would be almost double that. Which isnt bad on it's own. But I have heard people having issues with just a 4kw gen on a similar set up as my well.  Burning out their pumps with prolonged use.

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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

I think the running amps is about 8 and about 2k watts.. so your numbers are close. 

Start surge would be almost double that. Which isnt bad on it's own. But I have heard people having issues with just a 4kw gen on a similar set up as my well.  Burning out their pumps with prolonged use.

My research is showing as much as 3x startup. And this “ power factor coefficient “

 

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