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PK90

4473 change ...

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The intention of the form is to physically identify the applicant.  It's not about how the applicant "feels".  If that were true, then the applicant could answer any other question in the way they feel and not with the physical fact ... this would apply to place of birth, height, weight, ethnicity ... really any other fact on the form.  Where do we draw the line?  "Sex" is a physical fact here, and there are only two of them:  xx and xy.

So yes it most certainly matters "what is between your legs" - what is in your mind in this case is irrelevant.

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14 hours ago, raz-0 said:

So. If ffls are supposed to help with the number of fun deaths by suicide, and non gender confirming individuals have significantly higher rates of suicide, should they or should they not exercise discretion in selling them a gun? especially with the antis trying to bring their efforts to ban firearms by bankrupting manufacturers and retailers with lawsuits?

So naturally you support not selling guns to construction workers since they have the highest suicide rate of any profession? Maintenance/repair is second highest. Military is pretty high. If you care about suicide so much, you'd clearly stop selling them guns if that's going to be your logic for not selling to trans people.

12 hours ago, CageFighter said:

male = male, female = female!  u can identify whatever the f*ck you want, but your DNA never changes, even on hormones.  So again, your either MALE or FEMALE!  (if neither, ur confused)

The usual argument by someone who doesn't actually understand biology. It's not nearly as simple as male is male, female is female.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Enough of this bullshit about being obsessed with what is between your legs defines who you are. No FFL has ever made every single buyer pull down their pants to confirm their sex. 

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1 hour ago, Greenday said:

So naturally you support not selling guns to construction workers since they have the highest suicide rate of any profession? Maintenance/repair is second highest. Military is pretty high. If you care about suicide so much, you'd clearly stop selling them guns if that's going to be your logic for not selling to trans people.

The usual argument by someone who doesn't actually understand biology. It's not nearly as simple as male is male, female is female.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Enough of this bullshit about being obsessed with what is between your legs defines who you are. No FFL has ever made every single buyer pull down their pants to confirm their sex. 

What exactly are your qualifications as a biologist?

You seem a little up tight about this..........

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1 hour ago, Greenday said:

The usual argument by someone who doesn't actually understand biology. It's not nearly as simple as male is male and female is female.

Yes, it really is.

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1 hour ago, JT Custom Guns said:

What exactly are your qualifications as a biologist?

You seem a little up tight about this..........

It was my minor. Aced genetics, human genetics, DNA lab, RNA lab...

If I switched careers to anything else, genetic counseling would be my first choice.

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1 hour ago, Greenday said:

So naturally you support not selling guns to construction workers since they have the highest suicide rate of any profession? Maintenance/repair is second highest. Military is pretty high. If you care about suicide so much, you'd clearly stop selling them guns if that's going to be your logic for not selling to trans people.

The usual argument by someone who doesn't actually understand biology. It's not nearly as simple as male is male, female is female.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Enough of this bullshit about being obsessed with what is between your legs defines who you are. No FFL has ever made every single buyer pull down their pants to confirm their sex. 

The suicide rate for construction workers is 52.1 per 100,000 per the CDC as of 2015. 

Granted that is successful suicides, but the attempted suicide rate for a male to female transexual is over 50%. 

PERCENT. 

That's 1 per every 2 for male to female. 

For female to male, it's a bit over 41%. 

That aside, I'm mostly playing devils advocate. You are miserable and want to off yourself? Have at it. I think it's kind of fucked up that we demand people to extend their suffering so that society can feel better about things. That being said, the 4473 is about identification and assessment of the purchaser, and as it stands now this non-binary shit doesn't work very well for the following reason: If it is something that can be self determined, and can be changed at whim, it is useless in identifying someone. IMO rather than have non-binary, the field should be dropped because once you introduce that, it's pretty useless for identification. Given the current state of the law, and the fact the antis have put forth that unless they can get around the protection of lawful commerce in arms act to go directly against manufacturers, they will focus on using lawsuits to bankrupt dealers. 

This strategy exists because one of the exceptions to the lawful commerce in arms act are suits brought against the seller for negative entrustment. Since even if you can successfully argue that manufacturers are sellers, their customers are distributors and retailers, and thus not really useful for launching lawsuits. However, FFLs are retail dealers and are selling to end users. To quote the law "“the supplying of a qualified product by a seller for use by another person when the seller knows, or reasonably should know, the person to whom the product is supplied is likely to, and does, use the product in a manner involving unreasonable risk of physical injury to the person or others,” and that right there means that if someone ticks that box non-binary and identifies themselves as a member of the population with a roughly 50% attempted suicide rate, you just flipped a coin on being exposed to that exemption. 

As for your link, did you click through and read the more factual stuff cited in it?  Because that article draws a conclusion that is not presented in most of the stuff linked. For example:

1) Sex is not genetic!!! Well, a big chunk of it is, but it also depends on environmental factor at critical stages of development. It is written to imply that this is a huge window of potential change. The reality is that absent something really exceptional, this isn't a factor post birth. 

2) We've shown that there isn't a gendered brain!!! Well no. what they showed was that there is nothing int he brain that is exclusive to males or females. So unlike whatever crotch bits you ended up with, or your XX or XY situation, you can't just evaluate the brain and come to a meaningful conclusion. However, one of the studies linked sorted MtF and FtM trans people into populations based on the differences associated with various brain structures based on a sorting of one's dangly bits for those who were mentally okay with their dangly bits. 

Mostly what they got was inconclusive and looked more or less like. MtF trans people's brians look like male brains more than female brains. And that male homosexual brians look more like female brains than heterosexual male brains or those of MtF trans people as a whole.  

This doesn't mean that science has shown gender is non-binary, it's just shown that brain structure and such is proving to be less than useful for settling this argument. 

Which brings me back to identification, activism, and shitty people. Identification is a process that isn't trying to help or harm anyone. It's generally just trying to be accurate regardless of it's end use. That use can be identifying a corpse in a plane crash, or denying you your 2nd amendment rights, or making sure you get the most effective treatment, or just ensuring that the person who waited in line is the person who they said they are. The process of identification should not be regarded as some kind of offense because you don't like what it says. Unfortunately, that's what the LGBTQ++++ activists have decided the argument is. When in reality, the problem is that people can be shitty to other people. 

As a process of identification, this shit was better defined than it is now. 

You got born presenting as male or female, the government filed you as such, and that changed when you committed to getting a sex change operation and filling our a shit ton of paperwork. You do that and you are a MtF post-op trans person, and you check off F on the 4473. You don't cross that line, and you are a dude in a dress and you check off M.  As for the person being sorted, they can either deal with that and go hmm... that's somewhat arbitrary, guess I'll move on with my life while getting what I want, or they can lose their mind that some bureaucratic form isn't capturing their precise vision of themselves. More legitimately, because of that identification, someone could be a shitty person to them because they don't like what they see sitting in front of them. Or they might do so because of what they see sitting in front of them vs. the values filled in on the form. For those inclined to such shitty behavior, what the activists have done is created a situation that can ensure that friction occurs (or can occur) with greater frequency than before. 

That seems like a huge victory eh? 

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On 12/30/2019 at 4:27 PM, JT Custom Guns said:

I can tell you this - IF a person checks off "Non-Binary" in the Sex section - I'm not giving them a gun - period!

 

It may not be a decision for you to make anyway.........The state's NICS system does not have an option for entering "non binary". If someone checked that box, putting in a NICS check as male or female would be wrong, so how would a dealer do a NICS check at that point?

 

Also, with the state going over to the automatic verification of a person's information, I would think (although I have not tried it so far) putting a gender in the system different than what the state has in their database would result in an error message and prevent a NICS check from even being initiated.

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1 hour ago, Oakridgefirearms said:

It may not be a decision for you to make anyway.........The state's NICS system does not have an option for entering "non binary". If someone checked that box, putting in a NICS check as male or female would be wrong, so how would a dealer do a NICS check at that point?

 

Also, with the state going over to the automatic verification of a person's information, I would think (although I have not tried it so far) putting a gender in the system different than what the state has in their database would result in an error message and prevent a NICS check from even being initiated.

Well, I think there are two answers to that:

1) If the ATF did switch over to this on a new 4473, I would assume the NICS unit would follow suit and add a box (section) to the on-line system. I could foresee the NJ DL eventually going to a third option as well.

2) If a person checks off "binary" on the 4473, personally - I'm not doing the NICS so what they have or don't have would be irrelevant at that point

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1 hour ago, JT Custom Guns said:

Well, I think there are two answers to that:

1) If the ATF did switch over to this on a new 4473, I would assume the NICS unit would follow suit and add a box (section) to the on-line system. I could foresee the NJ DL eventually going to a third option as well.

2) If a person checks off "binary" on the 4473, personally - I'm not doing the NICS so what they have or don't have would be irrelevant at that point

I'm wondering if you're over estimating NJ's (ancient) computer system's capabilities...... LOL, This is a system that can't handle the addition of a middle initial or adding Jr, Sr, III, etc to a name. Maybe in another 10 years they'll get a fix for that........;)

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Just now, Oakridgefirearms said:

I'm wondering if you're over estimating NJ's (ancient) computer system's capabilities...... LOL, This is a system that can't handle the addition of a middle initial or adding Jr, Sr, III, etc to a name. Maybe in another 10 years they'll get a fix for that........;)

I don't think that is true at all. They just updated the NICS system a couple weeks ago.

They added the Does the applicant have a valid Drivers lic. - and the corresponding drop down box. They added the Is the applicant a US citizen, and the confirmation box, ect.

It's not that thy can't "handle" the middle initial, they have some other reason for asking us not to enter it. previously we did enter the middle initial and there were no issues.......

 

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4 minutes ago, JT Custom Guns said:

... They added the Does the applicant have a valid Drivers lic. - and the corresponding drop down box ....

Really? So someone who doesn't drive can't acquire a firearm from a dealer?

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1 minute ago, JT Custom Guns said:

I don't think that is true at all. They just updated the NICS system a couple weeks ago.

They added the Does the applicant have a valid Drivers lic. - and the corresponding drop down box. They added the Is the applicant a US citizen, and the confirmation box, ect.

It's not that thy can't "handle" the middle initial, they have some other reason for asking us not to enter it. previously we did enter the middle initial and there were no issues.......

 

Previously there was a person looking at the information who then entered it into the various databases. My guess is those people knew to leave off any part of the information that would be problematic when entering information into the systems. Now the information we input is directly put into the database and needs to conform to what they have on file.

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The whole system is flawed. 

I accidentally entered someone as a US citizen and he was approved. I realized my error and re-ran him, with all the same info, as a non-US citizen and he was instantly denied. 

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22 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Really? So someone who doesn't drive can't acquire a firearm from a dealer?

Pau, I "think" if you say No the Valid DL question, it will ask for another form of ID, but I have not had anyone come in w/o a valid NJ DL so I never tried it.................

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On 12/31/2019 at 11:30 AM, PK90 said:

So, your saying that if a DL states that a customer is 190 pounds and they put 230 pounds down on the form, the sale should be denied? :facepalm:

It doesn't matter what they put on the form in those identifying fields. They can be obvious Black and claim they are White, etc. Who am I to question Race, Gender, Weight, POB, etc.

They why bother with the accuracy of the address?  Or the name?  A change in weight and claiming your gender isn’t what it is are not the same situation. You can’t seriously be saying it is?  :facepalm:

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