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Nearly 1 in 3 American workers run out of money before payday—even those earning over $100,000

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2 hours ago, Sniper said:

Yep, typical discussion here. One person brings charts, links and data, the others, bring OPINIONS (not backed by anything) which they THINK are facts.

Just another day in paradise!

I'm sorry but not a single one of your charts links or data correlates that people pay down debt in a good economy...  

Factually speaking, debt is used as a vector for economic growth for both the public and private sectors... 

ThIS is how money enters into an economy after a recession, and how it typically grows.

When markets are overvalued and debt finally catches up to the most irresponsible, we move into a recession. But when is debt accrued? Who is handing out debt in a poor economy? So it would be paid down in a good one?

 

The responsible people you mention dont lose their homes and cars during recessions. That's your prize for being smart in a good economy 

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I work in HR and Payroll.  I can promise you there is no correlation between the economy and personal financial management.  Poor personal finance skills cross all economic boundaries, from minimum wage earners to corporate big wigs.  I've seen things that would make you cringe - corporate CFOs with multiple bankruptcies, employees with 13 - yes 13 - separate garnishment orders, people at all income levels taking 401k loans for revolving debts, employees using "bonus season" to spend 10x of their bonus amount on a car and then getting upset the following year because bonuses aren't as good.

No matter how much you make, spending more than that is a recipe for personal disaster.  A downturn in the economy is just  a point where personal finance decisions really make or break you.  An unexpected large expense or loss of income when you're living paycheck to paycheck is a financial breaking point for many folks.  When that happens many people lash out, blaming everyone and anyone except themselves.

All through the banking crisis, I never heard of a bank that forced someone to take that large mortgage, or to buy that $75,000 pickup truck or $100,000 BMW.  There was plenty of fraud, yes, but usually by mortgage brokers getting questionable loans approved.  There is no such thing as foreclosure or repossession if your payments are current.  Yes, bad things happen to good people, but many good people also cause themselves major problems by constantly living in the moment.

The issue IMO with student loan debt is the easy access to money with no linkage between the amount borrowed and the future potential to pay it back.  What could possibly go wrong by giving an 18 year old a blank check and encouraging them to study whatever it is they "want to do" as opposed to what will support them in the lifestyle they want to live in - whatever that may be.

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1 hour ago, mustang69 said:

I've seen things that would make you cringe - corporate CFOs with multiple bankruptcies, employees with 13 - yes 13 - separate garnishment orders, people at all income levels taking 401k loans for revolving debts, employees using "bonus season" to spend 10x of their bonus amount on a car and then getting upset the following year because bonuses aren't as good.

 

1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

Factually speaking, debt is used as a vector for economic growth for both the public and private sectors... 

ThIS is how money enters into an economy after a recession, and how it typically grows.

Ahhh, I see... so all these people Mustang is talking about are taking on this INCREASED debt because of GOOD economic conditions and record low unemployment. And tapping out their 401Ks for loans early is a vector for economic growth. That's one interesting economic theory. I wonder how all the multiple bankruptcies factor into that amazing economic growth model in this terrific economy.

Please tell us more.

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48 minutes ago, Handyman said:

We can pretty much end the thread right here. 

Yeah, this is the point I was trying to make from post 2. The story in CNBC quoting some guy that 1/3 of USians have trouble with finances in the Trump economy is bogus. There will always be a subset of people that make bad choices. Couple that with the source being someone who runs a student loan refi service, and probably oversampled his clients perhaps?

Lastly the graphs and such make my eyes glaze over. Zero Hedge has been posting the same 100s of graphs every week for the last 8 years at least, and it's always gonna happen that tomorrow is the collapse of the world economy--this time FER SHERRRR!!

The whole thing is propaganda, for student loan wannabe deadbeats, a/k/a Democrats to point at and say: 'SEE!! Trump SUCKS! People have no money in this supposedly Great Economy!?!?!?!??!??????!??!. Stop spreading Media LIES

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1 hour ago, matty said:

Lastly the graphs and such make my eyes glaze over.

 

1 hour ago, matty said:

The whole thing is propaganda, for student loan wannabe deadbeats, a/k/a Democrats to point at and say: 'SEE!! Trump SUCKS!

You're free to post your own data points and graphs to prove this is all propaganda. Help us out, go ahead, do it!

I'll wait......................................................................

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53 minutes ago, Sniper said:

 

You're free to post your own data points and graphs to prove this is all propaganda. Help us out, go ahead, do it!

 

 

350px-GDP_growth_1923-2009.jpg

Change in GDP, vs credit

Odd that it would correlate the exact opposite of what you claim.

fred.png

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/elenabotella/2020/02/13/credit-card-debt-all-time-high-inflation-recession/amp/

 

"Historically, high levels of household debt and a booming economy have gone hand-in-hand."

And If you have issues with the authenticity of the author...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elenabotella/#2332a9f62f0d

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i'm one of those ones without actual data. what i do have however is what i see with my own 2 eyes when customers come in. when the customer opens up their wallet and they've got 12 credit/debit cards, it paints a clear picture. when you know a guy's a public defender(which i think is decent money, but not great money), and you see they live in the expensive section of town, it paints a picture.

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First thing I would like to know is where do these 2,700 people who responded to this survey live. Do they live in NYC, LA, Northern Jersey, or do they live in the south or mid-west? If they live anywhere in the northeast or west coast then I can see how this might be true since living expenses are often greater then salaries. A person making $100,000 in NYC is A LOT worse off then someone making the same salary in South Carolina for example.

Another issue I see, as many have already mentioned, is personal habits of these people. I can tell you from personal example of my own. I had a few friends, liberals, hence the emphasis on HAD, with similar salaries as my wife and I that would eat at expensive restaurants at least 3 times a week while my wife and I shopped for food at shoprite and used coupons. Needless to say they were always crying how they always had money problems and couldn't even get a mortgage because their credit was crap. While my wife and I both have new cars, fully paid off, and a mortgage that is almost paid off, and perfect credit on top of that.

So just because 2,700 people have trouble living paycheck to paycheck, that is absolutely no indication of the economy as a whole.

As a matter of fact, I do believe that this is another attempt by the libs to paint a bad picture of the economy.

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12 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/elenabotella/2020/02/13/credit-card-debt-all-time-high-inflation-recession/amp/

"Historically, high levels of household debt and a booming economy have gone hand-in-hand."

And If you have issues with the authenticity of the author...

Did you actually read the entire article? Apparently not. Here are a few other points in the article:

....." Historically, in the United States and around the world, household debt has been at its highest when the unemployment rate has been at its lowest. But that doesn’t mean the credit card debt itself is good news. It’s time for a history, economics, and psychology lesson. The high levels of consumer debt show that there may be trouble ahead.

This doesn’t mean that credit card debt isn’t a serious problem for American families: it absolutely is! In 2006 and 2007, like now, the unemployment rate was low and fairly steady, hovering at or below 5%. But consumers weren’t using their paychecks to pay off their debt — and the strength of the economy meant that lenders felt comfortable taking greater risks,

That helps to explain why high levels of debt occur at the same time as low unemployment. But these researchers also found that the high levels of debt eventually forced economies to contract, because payments became too hard for borrowers to manage.

the higher levels of lending and borrowing make both banks and families feel wealthier than they truly are. “With credit plentiful, borrowers typically spend more than is sustainable, giving them the appearance of being prosperous. In turn, lenders who are enjoying the good times are more complacent than they should be. But debts can’t continue to rise faster than the money and income that is necessary to service them forever,” writes Dalio.

When the amount of debt in the economy starts to exceed what families can realistically repay, everybody suffers.

Put simply: the high level of debt in the economy doesn’t mean we’ve hit “rock bottom.” It actually means we’re reaching the peak: the high level of debt means that things can only go downhill from here.

That’s occasionally true, but when you look across the economy as a whole, we usually see the exact opposite phenomenon: families get into high-interest credit card debt as the economy grows, and then have to struggle to pay it back at the exact same time that the job market is tightening. "

So, @JackDaWack, please share with us this economic theory again that "Factually speaking, debt is used as a vector for economic growth for both the public and private sectors..."

You also might want to read the COMPLETE article that you post....., for facts.... 

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1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Did you actually read the entire article? Apparently not. Here are a few other points in the article:

....." Historically, in the United States and around the world, household debt has been at its highest when the unemployment rate has been at its lowest. But that doesn’t mean the credit card debt itself is good news. It’s time for a history, economics, and psychology lesson. The high levels of consumer debt show that there may be trouble ahead.

This doesn’t mean that credit card debt isn’t a serious problem for American families: it absolutely is! In 2006 and 2007, like now, the unemployment rate was low and fairly steady, hovering at or below 5%. But consumers weren’t using their paychecks to pay off their debt — and the strength of the economy meant that lenders felt comfortable taking greater risks,

That helps to explain why high levels of debt occur at the same time as low unemployment. But these researchers also found that the high levels of debt eventually forced economies to contract, because payments became too hard for borrowers to manage.

the higher levels of lending and borrowing make both banks and families feel wealthier than they truly are. “With credit plentiful, borrowers typically spend more than is sustainable, giving them the appearance of being prosperous. In turn, lenders who are enjoying the good times are more complacent than they should be. But debts can’t continue to rise faster than the money and income that is necessary to service them forever,” writes Dalio.

When the amount of debt in the economy starts to exceed what families can realistically repay, everybody suffers.

Put simply: the high level of debt in the economy doesn’t mean we’ve hit “rock bottom.” It actually means we’re reaching the peak: the high level of debt means that things can only go downhill from here.

That’s occasionally true, but when you look across the economy as a whole, we usually see the exact opposite phenomenon: families get into high-interest credit card debt as the economy grows, and then have to struggle to pay it back at the exact same time that the job market is tightening. "

So, @JackDaWack, please share with us this economic theory again that "Factually speaking, debt is used as a vector for economic growth for both the public and private sectors..."

You also might want to read the COMPLETE article that you post....., for facts.... 

The article doesnt dispute a single thing I have said, and doesn't support a single thing you have said.

You just read it all, but being selective in what YOU want to hear.

"families get into high-interest credit card debt as the economy grows"

What are you even arguing? 

I said good economies produce high debt... 

I showed you the graphs, and even a very well written article explaining that from someone who managed Credit debt.

You said people paid down debt in good economies, but you havent shown a single piece of evidence that suggests that. 

 

Do you want to arguing if this debt is good or bad for an economy? then start doing that because you haven't. 

Credit agencies just updated how they calculate scores due to people taking out personal loans to pay off credit cards, and then rack up the credit cards again... is that bad? Yes. Will unmanaged credit lead to economic down turn? Yes... but does that mean the economy today is weak? No. In fact, it's a good regulation that will better help lenders know who should not be given more credit.

 

I have shown in a number of different ways how debt is used to grow economies.. at this point you're just ignoring those fact. Whether it's a company looking to expand, a company looking for a start ( as corporate debt also follows the same trend), a family looking to purchase products, a state or local government looking to invest in infrastructure with bonds. All with the specific intent to create cash flow. 

Unmanaged debt will crash the economy, eventually. They have been calling for this recession since the day Trump took office. As discussed in the article, when people are force to pay down their debt and cant obtain more due to a tightening economy, the economy peaks, less cash flow, and we head into a recession. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

The article doesnt dispute a single thing I have said, and doesn't support a single thing you have said.

You just read it all, but being selective in what YOU want to hear.

"families get into high-interest credit card debt as the economy grows"

What are you even arguing? 

I said good economies produce high debt... 

I showed you the graphs, and even a very well written article explaining that from someone who managed Credit debt.

You said people paid down debt in good economies, but you havent shown a single piece of evidence that suggests that. 

 

Do you want to arguing if this debt is good or bad for an economy? then start doing that because you haven't. there is no such thing as good debt. ever. you're being lied to by those who would try to convince you otherwise.

Credit agencies just updated how they calculate scores due to people taking out personal loans to pay off credit cards, and then rack up the credit cards again... is that bad? Yes.kind of a personal version of raising the debt ceiling.  Will unmanaged credit lead to economic down turn? Yes... but does that mean the economy today is weak? No. In fact, it's a good regulation that will better help lenders know who should not be given more credit.lenders don't need any more regulations to figure this out. regulations is how we got into the shitshow we have now.

 

I have shown in a number of different ways how debt is used to grow economies.. at this point you're just ignoring those fact. Whether it's a company looking to expand, a company looking for a start ( as corporate debt also follows the same trend), a family looking to purchase products, a state or local government looking to invest in infrastructure with bonds. All with the specific intent to create cash flow. 

Unmanaged debt will crash the economy, eventually. that crash will more than likely hit us before 2024. They have been calling for this recession since the day Trump took office. As discussed in the article, when people are force to pay down their debt and cant obtain more due to a tightening economy, the economy peaks, less cash flow, and we head into a recession. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with properly managed debt... 

A majority of people cant buy a house or car with out it. Or receive a good education with out it. Provided all of these debts end with valuable assets which allow you to earn more in the long run, and the interest paid doesn't out-weight other factors. If you are saving to buy a house, and paying rent.. does the rent cost more than the interest if buying one? If so, you stand to lose money buy avoiding debt. In 30 years, the people who rented and outright bought their home can very possible have less net wealth. 

I can pay off a car and house, at extremely low interest rates, while compounding interest in investments as the economy grows..  earn dividends.. utilize my own free crash to work for me.. instead of not having any being due to it tied up in liquid assets

So debt CAN BE GOOD, and can actually increase your net worth over time. Especially if that debt leads to valuable assets.  That requires working both side of the market.. and investing your surplus not spending it. And doing it smart.

Why would I put all my money into a house to save 3% a year when I can use it to earn potentially 10%? The house eventually gets paid off, and I have a fat retirement account with a major asset like a home.

Regulations can go either way... deregulating mortgages led to the housing crisis.. Clinton's dream that every American would own a home.. So they are very important in establishing who can get a loan, ESPECIALLY if we are to bail out dumbass banks for handing out LEGAL predatory loans because people are stupid.

Any regulation that makes it harder to borrow money is IMO good, but when we need a way out of a recession.... we print money and loan it out. We make it easier to borrow and start the cycle all over again. 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, dilbert1967 said:

I didn't learn "personal financial management" in school, it was instilled in me by my parents.  Today, my house is paid for, no student loan debt, an auto loan that will be paid in one year, and no credit card debt (I pay it off at the end of the billing cycle, if I can't afford it, I don't buy it).   I didn't know it was taught in schools today.

It very often is not taught in schools. 

I moved in middle school and moved into a school district that had a pretty robust civics class that spent a quarter going over the basics of personal finance, budgeting, investment and stuff like that. 

Later one year of health class was personal finance and retirement planning. 

Outside of getting into more advanced math they were pretty solid. When I went to college I met back up with some of my friends prior to moving. They did not get the same kind of coverage of such subjects. 

 

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20 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

It very often is not taught in schools. 

I moved in middle school and moved into a school district that had a pretty robust civics class that spent a quarter going over the basics of personal finance, budgeting, investment and stuff like that. 

Later one year of health class was personal finance and retirement planning. 

Outside of getting into more advanced math they were pretty solid. When I went to college I met back up with some of my friends prior to moving. They did not get the same kind of coverage of such subjects. 

 

9.1 PERSONAL FINANCIAL LITERACY

https://www.state.nj.us/education/cccs/2014/career/91.pdf

I do wonder how many schools properly teach this.

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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with properly managed debt... 

A majority of people cant buy a house or car with out it. Or receive a good education with out it. Provided all of these debts end with valuable assets which allow you to earn more in the long run, and the interest paid doesn't out-weight other factors. If you are saving to buy a house, and paying rent.. does the rent cost more than the interest if buying one? If so, you stand to lose money buy avoiding debt. In 30 years, the people who rented and outright bought their home can very possible have less net wealth. 

I can pay off a car and house, at extremely low interest rates, while compounding interest in investments as the economy grows..  earn dividends.. utilize my own free crash to work for me.. instead of not having any being due to it tied up in liquid assets

So debt CAN BE GOOD, and can actually increase your net worth over time. Especially if that debt leads to valuable assets.  That requires working both side of the market.. and investing your surplus not spending it. And doing it smart.

Why would I put all my money into a house to save 3% a year when I can use it to earn potentially 10%? The house eventually gets paid off, and I have a fat retirement account with a major asset like a home.

Regulations can go either way... deregulating mortgages led to the housing crisis.. Clinton's dream that every American would own a home.. So they are very important in establishing who can get a loan, ESPECIALLY if we are to bail out dumbass banks for handing out LEGAL predatory loans because people are stupid.

Any regulation that makes it harder to borrow money is IMO good, but when we need a way out of a recession.... we print money and loan it out. We make it easier to borrow and start the cycle all over again. 

 

 

 

This! I could have paid for my home in cash but I would have cleaned out 99.9% of everything I had. Instead I got a mortgage and kept a good chunk of money which I invested. Total earnings off those investments was 14k and change in 2019. That's more than my mortgage and property taxes cost me in 2019! 

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One name, Dave Ramsey. If you've never heard of him check him out. His principles totally changed me and my wife's life. We are now totally debt free except our house, have a 3 month emergency savings, are saving to buy my wife's next new car with cash in a couple months then we will start making double or triple mortgage payments and have our house paid off in 4 years. To practice what he preaches you have to totally change your way of financial thinking and a lot of people have a hard time accepting that or they think their plan is better but his has proven itself millions of times over. I even argued with my wife why it was a bad idea, then I tried it and haven't looked back.

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3 hours ago, gimmemym1 said:

One name, Dave Ramsey. If you've never heard of him check him out. His principles totally changed me and my wife's life. We are now totally debt free except our house, have a 3 month emergency savings, are saving to buy my wife's next new car with cash in a couple months then we will start making double or triple mortgage payments and have our house paid off in 4 years. To practice what he preaches you have to totally change your way of financial thinking and a lot of people have a hard time accepting that or they think their plan is better but his has proven itself millions of times over. I even argued with my wife why it was a bad idea, then I tried it and haven't looked back.

I've been paying double payments on mortgage for 2.5 years now. making sure the extra all goes to the principle. it'll be paid off in 2 years from now. 

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21 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

You just read it all, but being selective in what YOU want to hear.

Selective... that's funny and rich... you read the complete article, and post a SINGLE sentence to support YOUR narrative, while I post MULTIPLE paragraphs to support my narrative from the SAME article to prove you wrong... Folks, you just can't make this shit up.

21 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

"families get into high-interest credit card debt as the economy grows"

What are you even arguing? 

Didn't read what I posted, did you? Here it is again:

22 hours ago, Sniper said:

the higher levels of lending and borrowing make both banks and families feel wealthier than they truly are. “With credit plentiful, borrowers typically spend more than is sustainable, giving them the appearance of being prosperous.

So, you think it's acceptable to take on MORE debt because of the PERCEPTION that people FEEL wealthier. Boy, that's really sound financial logic.... not....

18 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

there is no such thing as good debt. ever. you're being lied to by those who would try to convince you otherwise.

And it seems to be working. Many involved in this thread are being totally lied to by Trump, but since it's Trump and MAGA. they think all is good... Sad...

18 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

but when we need a way out of a recession.... we print money and loan it out. We make it easier to borrow and start the cycle all over again. 

So, tell us. The media (and Trump) says our economy is GREAT!! So why did the FEDS lower the federal funds rate three times the end of last year, and why have they been printing/injecting $50B - $100B in the overnight REPO market every night? Does that sound like a GREAT economy???

And if your theory that borrowing money and taking on NEW debt makes so much sense to grow the economy, why is GDP floating in the 2% - 3% ranges, barely keeping ahead of inflation? If debt helps the economy grow, with the level of new debt, the GDP should be north of 6%.... but it isn't....

Here are two charts, yeah, I know, those pesky FACTS... this DOESN'T happen during a "Great" economy...

fed funds.jpg

balance.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Selective... that's funny and rich... you read the complete article, and post a SINGLE sentence to support YOUR narrative, while I post MULTIPLE paragraphs to support my narrative from the SAME article to prove you wrong... Folks, you just can't make this shit up.

Didn't read what I posted, did you? Here it is again:

So, you think it's acceptable to take on MORE debt because of the PERCEPTION that people FEEL wealthier. Boy, that's really sound financial logic.... not....

And it seems to be working. Many involved in this thread are being totally lied to by Trump, but since it's Trump and MAGA. they think all is good... Sad...

So, tell us. The media (and Trump) says our economy is GREAT!! So why did the FEDS lower the federal funds rate three times the end of last year, and why have they been printing/injecting $50B - $100B in the overnight REPO market every night? Does that sound like a GREAT economy???

And if your theory that borrowing money and taking on NEW debt makes so much sense to grow the economy, why is GDP floating in the 2% - 3% ranges, barely keeping ahead of inflation? If debt helps the economy grow, with the level of new debt, the GDP should be north of 6%.... but it isn't....

Here are two charts, yeah, I know, those pesky FACTS... this DOESN'T happen during a "Great" economy...

fed funds.jpg

balance.jpg

I said debt increases with a good economy.. every single good econmy in US history. You made up some shit beyond that I didnt say.

 

You said it didnt.. 

 

Sorry you're wrong.

 

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4 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I said debt increases with a good economy..

Yes, and I posted the charts to show that. But you said taking on the debt was a GOOD thing. I've shown that it's a BAD thing, and people are way over leveraged.

Do you even remember what you post?

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4 hours ago, Sniper said:

Yes, and I posted the charts to show that. But you said taking on the debt was a GOOD thing. I've shown that it's a BAD thing, and people are way over leveraged.

Do you even remember what you post?

I said... debt drives the economy upwards, I said it can be good if its managed properly... 

You're attempting to say the economy is bad today because of high debt levels... when even the article I posted said it's a sign the economy is peaking and may start to slow down. Every good economy of the past has had high debt levels... and they all peak. But I said that debt is not an indication of the economies actual health.

As of right now, major economic indicators say the economy is relatively healthy despite your opinion on debt. 

Jobs, GDP, inflation, interest rates, stock market.. 

Is it the best? No. Everything to Trump is "the best".. he's certainly a narcissist.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/12/10/only-the-financial-pundits-see-recession/amp/

None of those things show what you describe as a poor economy. Can that change when debt limits are met, yes it definitely will, and bust will follow the boom. 

 

You cant ignore basic economic principles to prove a point. People arent given MORE debt when they are broke and dont have jobs in a poor economy.  A primary indicator of market down turn is when interest levels drop because people STOP looking for credit. But the federal rate was reduce mildly to stimulate the economy.... and they havent reduced it since and I havent read anything indicating they plan to this year.. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

I said... debt drives the economy upwards,

It does? With the GDP running at between 2% - 3%, these record levels of debt don't seem to be helping.

3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

You're attempting to say the economy is bad today because of high debt levels...

No, I said the high debts levels are a symptom of a not good economy. People are using their credit cards (and increasing their balances) just to pay for their everyday stuff. MOST aren't using debt in a strategic way to MAKE money.

You think taking out a new car loan for 7 or 8 years is a sign that people are doing great in this economy? 

3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

But I said that debt is not an indication of the economies actual health.

It's an indication, depending on what type of debt, is their economic health. If they're taking on new debt, just to get through the month, then it's a big indication.

3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

As of right now, major economic indicators say the economy is relatively healthy despite your opinion on debt. 

Jobs, GDP, inflation, interest rates, stock market.. 

Relatively healthy? First, the stock market has ZERO connection the real world. 60% of the population doesn't even participate in it. Like I said above, if debt grows the economy, how come GDP is flat, just abut even with inflation?

Jobs? Just because people are working doesn't mean they're doing OK and making money. Real median disposable income is up like $100 a month, YOY. Does having an extra $100 a month in your pocket make you want to add thousands to your credit card bill or buy a car? Only if you believe what the media "is selling you" that things are good.

Interest Rates? Since last Fall, FED rates are dropping, does that happen during a  great economy or down times? How about the Fed balance sheet? They've been printing money since last September? Is that a sign of a great economy? Go look again at the two charts I posted above.

4 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

You cant ignore basic economic principles to prove a point.

Exactly, and I just gave you a bunch of FACTUAL economic data points. You can either believe the print media that everything is great in MAGA Land, or you can look at actual economic data points.

Your choice.

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11 minutes ago, Sniper said:

It does? With the GDP running at between 2% - 3%, these record levels of debt don't seem to be helping.

No, I said the high debts levels are a symptom of a not good economy. People are using their credit cards (and increasing their balances) just to pay for their everyday stuff. MOST aren't using debt in a strategic way to MAKE money.

You think taking out a new car loan for 7 or 8 years is a sign that people are doing great in this economy? 

It's an indication, depending on what type of debt, is their economic health. If they're taking on new debt, just to get through the month, then it's a big indication.

Relatively healthy? First, the stock market has ZERO connection the real world. 60% of the population doesn't even participate in it. Like I said above, if debt grows the economy, how come GDP is flat, just abut even with inflation?

Jobs? Just because people are working doesn't mean they're doing OK and making money. Real median disposable income is up like $100 a month, YOY. Does having an extra $100 a month in your pocket make you want to add thousands to your credit card bill or buy a car? Only if you believe what the media "is selling you" that things are good.

Interest Rates? Since last Fall, FED rates are dropping, does that happen during a  great economy or down times? How about the Fed balance sheet? They've been printing money since last September? Is that a sign of a great economy? Go look again at the two charts I posted above.

Exactly, and I just gave you a bunch of FACTUAL economic data points. You can either believe the print media that everything is great in MAGA Land, or you can look at actual economic data points.

Your choice.

I'm curious.. how do you think we got out of the last recession?

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6 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I'm curious.. how do you think we got out of the last recession?

Lowering interest rates and printing money (which has been going on since last Fall).

I'm still waiting for you to tell me the financial theory that supports this action during a "great" economy.

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15 minutes ago, Handyman said:

Can't the economy be strong, and can't people make stupid financial decisions, and can't these two things operate independently of one another?

Sure... but I'm still waiting for one of you guys to actually post true data, besides just hyperbole, showing proof the economy is strong. Lots of talk/bloviating, but ZERO verifiable proof so far..

Why is that?

And, for the bonus question, if the econony is so great, and everyone is making money, how come the government is running a $1.3 TRILLION deficit? Last time that happened was Obama's first year, when the country was trying to climb out of the recession.

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