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Stan M.

How do I Return a Firearm to MFR for Repair?

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Hi,

 

   I know, seems like a dumb question. I need to return a cheapo Turkish PAS-410 Hatfield pump .410 shotgun to the manufacturer for repair. It had been my understanding that non-FFL holders could use USPS, UPS, or FedEx to ship long guns to either the MFR or to FFL. When contacting the MFR for return authorization that is exactly what I was told. My response to them  was "understand this is NJ, not the USA".  First two stops today were the Post Offices in Morganville and Wickatunk. Morganville said "no guns in the mail whatsoever, gotta go to UPS". Wickatunk said pretty much the same, with a caveat, "I think that maybe antiques are allowed, but you should go to UPS". The next stop was the Matawan UPS store, they said " no guns, we are not a licensed carrier". A number of years ago I sent a Browning BPS to a FFL after selling on Gunbroker and got the same runaround at the UPS hub in Tinton Falls, after insisting the guy at the counter get some amplification from the supervisor, I was allowed to ship. The supervisor had to make a phone call for advice on how to proceed, but he also told me "I should have a dealer ship in the future". Why should I pay a dealer to ship if I legally don't have to? Does anyone have any advice besides using a dealer? I was thinking of just crossing the river and going to a PA Post Office.  I'm really getting fed up with NJ, I grew up in PA and have a second home there. I spent 20 years active duty USN stationed all over the country and the world. After retiring, I worked 15 years at NWS Earle in Colts Neck as a Navy civilian. I've been retired about a year- I don't want to leave my neighborhood and home, but I think it's coming due. 

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Yeah, I know. Can they send it back?  I think it has to only be sent back to NJ FFL, and NICS and transfer (again? I already did that).

The MFR says they just send to your home address, which should be OK, but again, " this is not the USA,  it is NJ" . Instead of trying to save a few bucks I think I'll just send it back through the dealer I bought at, (in PA). My experience today says that, yes you could do it on the sneak, but I'm honest. Why do you need a lawyer to do simple things here? It wasn't meant to be this way.

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I've sent guns to the manufacturer and they sent them back to me.  Packed in my own box and dropped off at the nearest drop off location.  I did ship second day air (I think) because it provided better tracking.  I think all UPS packages provide tracking now.  I didn't tell anyone what was in the box and nobody asked.   It arrived back at my door shipped UPS..

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Stevens sent me a UPS label and had UPS driver come to my door to pick it up.  And drop off the repaired gun for that matter.  If I were shipping back on my dime, I would do so by dropping it off at a hub.  AFAIK, a UPS/Fedex store won't take firearms, but a hub will.  If anyone gives you a problem, I'm sure UPS/Fedex policy is on their website somewhere.  Not sure about USPS for long guns.

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No, they don't give you a shipping label, it is on the owners dime to send it back. It's because this company (Hatfield) is pretty low rent.  Wal-Mart sells the Hatfield shotguns, and I wanted to see how well they (Hatfield not Wal-Mart) back up their stuff. I am in the beginning stage of finding out. I don't expect much, so see what happens. As far as mailing/shipping back, I'll get it done tomorrow either UPS or one of the FFL's here. 

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UPS stores are NOT UPS!!! Which is why they won't accept firearms. They aren't covered by the exemptions for common carriers. You need to go to an actual UPS customer counter. 

The main guy at the customer counter in raritan center isn't 100% up on the facts, but knows enough that you can make it work. 

 

 

 

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Ruger sent me a calltag for FedEx Next Day, and specifically said to tell them (FedEx) that it is a firearm. FedEx rep only said thank you and it is policy that you let them now it is a firearm that I am shipping, and alot of people ship firearms. and they shipped back with signature required.

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The postal employees that you spoke to were incorrect. You can ship long guns through the mail and it'll probably be cheaper than using FedEx or UPS. Try again and ask to see the postal regs if they try that BS again.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-through-us-postal-service

As for those of you advocating designating your shipment as "machine parts" rather than a firearm - God help you if the package goes missing. What is your recourse at that point? FedEx and UPS want firearms in their systems for the shortest time possible - send it labeled "machine parts" and who knows? Just a word to the wise.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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Thanks Bob,

   I will try USPS once again with that link you provided, and yes the Post Office is going to be the cheapest. It is so frustrating when you know that you know what the rules are, but the person behind the counter is so biased that they will have nothing to do with it. Some people have an irrational fear of guns. If I cant deal with the Post Office its going to have to be UPS in Tinton Falls.  The UPS store in Matawan was recommended to me by others who had shipped there, it just didn't work for me I guess because I informed them what's in the box. They wanted me to disassemble and send the gun in two packages! Funny thing is that it doesn't matter how far I take the gun down, it's broke, will not fire, so cannot be used for creating havoc anyway.    

 

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 Just tried the Matawan PO and they will not do it. Won't even look at the ATF regulation concerning this that I brought with. I asked what code they are referencing as far as "no guns" and the supervisor said "I just know that we don't ship guns, sorry". So I'm not sure what the recourse is now if they aren't willing to even follow their own rules.  

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12 minutes ago, Stan M. said:

 Just tried the Matawan PO and they will not do it. Won't even look at the ATF regulation concerning this that I brought with. I asked what code they are referencing as far as "no guns" and the supervisor said "I just know that we don't ship guns, sorry". So I'm not sure what the recourse is now if they aren't willing to even follow their own rules.  

Contact the postmaster general to sort their shit out. 

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20 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

I've sent guns to the manufacturer and they sent them back to me.  Packed in my own box and dropped off at the nearest drop off location.  I did ship second day air (I think) because it provided better tracking.  I think all UPS packages provide tracking now.  I didn't tell anyone what was in the box and nobody asked.   It arrived back at my door shipped UPS..

This. Stop bringing all this attention to yourself.

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3 hours ago, Pizza Bob said:

The postal employees that you spoke to were incorrect. You can ship long guns through the mail and it'll probably be cheaper than using FedEx or UPS. Try again and ask to see the postal regs if they try that BS again.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-through-us-postal-service

As for those of you advocating designating your shipment as "machine parts" rather than a firearm - God help you if the package goes missing. What is your recourse at that point? FedEx and UPS want firearms in their systems for the shortest time possible - send it labeled "machine parts" and who knows? Just a word to the wise.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Insurance. Always get the insurance 

lost or stolen firearms you report to your pd. But they are machine parts. Jersey is to hypersensitive...

is the fed ex police gonna come after you? Give me a break

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  So I just called Hatfield again, (the company I am trying to return to) and explained all my hassles. They agreed to send me a new trigger group for the gun which will hopefully correct the issue, and I can stop beating my head against the wall trying to accomplish something that seemed so easy but wasn't. Be nice if it works, and saves me some cash too. If Hatfield comes through with a new trigger group and the gun works then it's alright. Meantime, screw the Post Office, and more than that screw NJ too!  

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20 hours ago, Stan M. said:

No, they don't give you a shipping label, it is on the owners dime to send it back. It's because this company (Hatfield) is pretty low rent.  Wal-Mart sells the Hatfield shotguns, and I wanted to see how well they (Hatfield not Wal-Mart) back up their stuff. I am in the beginning stage of finding out. I don't expect much, so see what happens. As far as mailing/shipping back, I'll get it done tomorrow either UPS or one of the FFL's here. 

Even Hi Point isn't THAT low rent! :D

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1 hour ago, Stan M. said:

  So I just called Hatfield again, (the company I am trying to return to) and explained all my hassles. They agreed to send me a new trigger group for the gun which will hopefully correct the issue, and I can stop beating my head against the wall trying to accomplish something that seemed so easy but wasn't. Be nice if it works, and saves me some cash too. If Hatfield comes through with a new trigger group and the gun works then it's alright. Meantime, screw the Post Office, and more than that screw NJ too!  

I would still complain to the regional postal director about that PO not following procedure. They are losing money. They should not be turning business away.

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Here is the actual Postal Regulation...

432.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Except under 431.2, unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing. The following conditions also apply:

  1. Subject to state, territory, or district regulations, rifles and shotguns may be mailed without restriction when intended for delivery within the same state of mailing. These items must:
    1. Bear a “Return Service Requested” endorsement.
    2. Be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  2. A rifle or shotgun owned by a non-FFL may be mailed outside the owner‘s state of residence by the owner to himself or herself, in care of another person in the other state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. These mailpieces must:
    1. Be addressed to the owner.
    2. Include the “in the care of” endorsement immediately preceding the name of the applicable temporary custodian.
    3. Be opened by the rifle or shotgun owner only.
    4. Be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  3. Mailing of rifles and shotguns between licensed FFL dealers, manufacturers, or importers are not restricted. The Postal Service recommends that these items be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  4. Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  5. Except as described in 432.3a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to licensed FFL curio and relic collectors in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  6. Firearms meeting the definition of a rifle or shotgun under 431.4 which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum, which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without restriction when mailed between governmental museums.
  7. Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1a are mailable. A shipment containing an air gun with a muzzle velocity of 400 or more feet per second (fps) must include an adult signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must additionally comply with all applicable state and local regulations.

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 I sent an emailed complaint in to USPS yesterday, and a regional director just called me. I guess ignorance goes well up the food chain with USPS as she gave  me the same business that I got at three of her offices yesterday ( no firearms in the mail, only dealers, manufacturers and importers). I told her to please read section 432 of your own regulation it is all there in black & white. I cannot make someone understand their own regulations, if they don't know what they are supposed to know. I have a feeling that the only way to do anything about this is to write a letter to the regional Postmaster General, which I told her I intend to do. And as far as that goes, I cant say with certainty that that would even help, but will do it anyway. 

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Keep in mind that the USPS is basically a government job, I know semantics, but the employees don't care and will not jump over hurdles for you.

As far as UPS Store is concerned. As mentioned earlier, a UPS Store is NOT UPS, it's a franchise. Same holds true for UPS and Fedex authorized shipping locations such as Staples and Walgreens, they WILL NOT accpt firearms. If you want to ship firearms via UPS or Fedex you need to either take it to a customer counter or hand it to the driver, it must be second day air at least for pistols, and must require an adult signature. And finally, there should be absolutely no indication of the packages contents anywhere on the outside of the box, but you do have to tell the UPS or Fedex employee that it is a firearm so they can place it in the cage for security purposes.  

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