Prep For Quarantine / Pandemic

[voyager9 3,434]

59 minutes ago, Indianajonze said:

your logic is deeply flawed. using your math (which i heavily dispute, but let's play), if a person may have the virus and decides to go out and about with their magical bandana, and said magical bandana knocks their spewed viral load down by 70%, that means that i, a very healthy adult male, now must endure an increased 30% risk of catching a virus from some jackass who should have kept their sick ass home

You’re combining issues. Yes, said jackass should have stayed home if he knew he was sick. As we have seen, he may not.   But as you said, if he wears a mask regardless he cuts down how much outflow he leaves in his trail. This reduces how much virus everyone around him is exposed to. 

[Indianajonze 379]

you know, you're absolutely right, i change my mind. we should all be forced to wear whatever articles of clothing dr phil murphy decides we should wear. we should shop at the places he designates we should shop, travel at the prescribed times he wants us to travel and we'll wait patiently for him to give us the ok to go biking and running again. i hope he's benevolent enough to someday allow me to go to church again and go shooting at the range. please governor murphy! please! i beg of you to have mercy on us soon

i withdraw my all of my previous statements. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

20 minutes ago, Indianajonze said:

sure. a private company can mandate whatever rules they wish on their own private company grounds. that is VERY different from an authoritarian government forcing a business to enact such rules. let's be very clear here. the government does not have the constitutional authority to do any of the following:

deem a business as "essential"

force a business to close

force a place of worship to close

force a person to wear something they object to

force a person to be vaccinated (forced covid 19 vaccines)

enforce a curfew

close a public space which is funded by taxpayers

restrict a person from traveling freely without having committed a crime

seize private property without due process

if you are supportive of any of the above for any reason, you should be rethinking what it means to be an american. i'm a big believer in the constitution, the intent of the founders and the purpose of the formation of this country. we were not born here to cower in fear, locked in our homes for fear of catching a virus. could you imagine if the people today were the ones responsible for settling the old west? we'd never have made it past parsippany. 

if you're sick, stay home. if you're high risk, stay home. if you're elderly, stay home. if you know any of these people, stay away from them. for 99% of the population though, let's get busy living. we were not born for this shit, and we're giving some very dangerous people some very dangerous ideas. wasn't it kamala harris who said the first thing she'd do is sign an eo mandating gun violence as a "national health emergency"? be careful of defending these actions, people. you could be living like this for the rest of your lives...

 

 "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - ben franklin

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” - thomas jefferson

For starters your math is flawed.  You imply 99% of the population should get on with their lives.  That's basically what Comrade DeBlassio said at the beginning of March.  That sure worked out for them didn't it?

You claim to be a Constituionalist.  "Promote the general welfare" is in the preamble.

While I think some of these restrictions are excessive most of them "promote the general welfare".

Read all the Constitution. Not just the parts that support your agenda.

[Spawne32 37]

9 minutes ago, Indianajonze said:

10th amendment 10th amendment 10th amendment. why is it that whenever anyone wants to violate the constitution they run to the 10th amendment? the 10th amendment does not allow states to violate the constitution as written. the 10th amendment allows states to create transit authorities. public housing. school systems. you know, just what it says. things NOT defined by the constitution. it does not allow them to violate the 1st amendment. or the 2nd or 4th. those things are very clearly defined in the constitution

10th amendment 10th amendment 10th amendment of the constitution of the united states of america. why is it that whenever someone claims they are upholding the constitution they like to ignore select amendments of their choosing? At any rate if you read the article it plainly states the following...

Quote

Our legal history is filled with cases where government has had insufficiently important reasons to justify restrictive measures, or where the measures themselves are overly broad. Or even cases where government restrictions turn out to have been implemented for impermissibly discriminatory reasons, such as when the city of San Francisco targeted only its Chinese residents in a bubonic plague outbreak in 1900. Not all exercises of the police power will withstand constitutional scrutiny.

And as such, many of the orders being issued during this crisis will and have been challenged in court and decisions will be made regarding their constitutional validity. Personally I don't feel that being required to wear a face covering in stores during a time of national emergency is in any way violating my constitutional rights. There are plenty of other things to be up in arms about, such as shutting down gun stores in an attempt to curb gun sales.

[Underdog 1,593]

Many good points on all sides, but who is to say what "supporting the general welfare" means.  Perhaps allowing herd immunity to happen and/or doing whatever you went out for is in some way showing your support.  Perhaps wearing a mask and going out with gloves and maintaining perfect seperation of non-contaminated and contaminated is...

Supporting the general welfare is also maintaining a Constitutional Republic with checks and balances, personal freedoms balanced with the needs of the many.  

 

6 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

10th amendment 10th amendment 10th amendment of the constitution of the united states of america. why is it that whenever someone claims they are upholding the constitution they like to ignore select amendments of their choosing? At any rate if you read the article it plainly states the following...

And as such, many of the orders being issued during this crisis will and have been challenged in court and decisions will be made regarding their constitutional validity. Personally I don't feel that being required to wear a face covering in stores during a time of national emergency is in any way violating my constitutional rights. There are plenty of other things to be up in arms about, such as shutting down gun stores in an attempt to curb gun sales.

Good point, but if masks are required, then why not provide them?  By the way, when I go out I have a mask and agree with maintaining personal responsibility.

[Underdog 1,593]

I guess maybe if we had a Governor that actually protected our rights, 1st, 2nd, 4th and on and on, then maybe we might feel a little bit better about complying VOLUNTARILY with his recommendations.  Additionally, if the younger crowd, millenials, etc. were taught through the family and community to be more participative instead of taught... ME ME ME, and everyone gets an A, and, well, we all have a RIGHT 

[voyager9 3,434]

12 minutes ago, Indianajonze said:

you know, you're absolutely right, i change my mind. we should all be forced to wear whatever articles of clothing dr phil murphy decides we should wear. we should shop at the places he designates we should shop, travel at the prescribed times he wants us to travel and we'll wait patiently for him to give us the ok to go biking and running again. i hope he's benevolent enough to someday allow me to go to church again and go shooting at the range. please governor murphy! please! i beg of you to have mercy on us soon

i withdraw my all of my previous statements. 

There is a difference between questioning whether the governor can/should have the authority to mandate what he has and questioning whether those mandates aren’t effective. 

[Underdog 1,593]

I guess maybe if we had a Governor that actually protected our rights, 1st, 2nd, 4th and on and on, then maybe we might feel a little bit better about complying VOLUNTARILY with his recommendations.  Additionally, if the younger crowd, millenials, etc. were taught through the family and community to be more participative instead of taught... ME ME ME, and everyone gets an A, and, well, we all have a RIGHT to a safe playground, and that we should be handed everything, and on aond on, oh, and that we are NOT responsible for our actions, then maybe that said governor would not have any reasons at all to want to be more draconian.  

[Spawne32 37]

2 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Many good points on all sides, but who is to say what "supporting the general welfare" means.  Perhaps allowing herd immunity to happen and/or doing whatever you went out for is in some way showing your support.  Perhaps wearing a mask and going out with gloves and maintaining perfect seperation of non-contaminated and contaminated is...

Supporting the general welfare is also maintaining a Constitutional Republic with checks and balances, personal freedoms balanced with the needs of the many.  

 

Good point, but if masks are required, then why not provide them?

If we were in court right now, I would be making the argument that "supporting the general welfare" means following the direction of experts on the subject matter of the national emergency (be it medical or military, etc) since there is no reasonable expectation that any one particular person would know the truly correct course of action by themselves alone. In that regard I would say for the purposes of a pandemic, it would be within the powers of the state to require some sort of face covering in public spaces if experts agree that it is supporting the general welfare. Although a judge could see that entirely differently.

I think the reason why they cannot provide them and advise ANY sort of face covering is because they barely are able to supply them to the first responders in the field dealing with the crisis let alone the entire population. Most rational people would not take issue with a face covering if it meant lessening the risk of people becoming infected. Court's use the "reasonable person standard" all the time to judge these types of things.

[Underdog 1,593]

1 minute ago, voyager9 said:

There is a difference between questioning whether the governor can/should have the authority to mandate what he has and questioning whether those mandates aren’t effective. 

So, did the Governor shut down the ranges and the NICs and the state parks with a heavy heart?

[Spawne32 37]

1 minute ago, Underdog said:

I guess maybe if we had a Governor that actually protected our rights, 1st, 2nd, 4th and on and on, then maybe we might feel a little bit better about complying VOLUNTARILY with his recommendations.  Additionally, if the younger crowd, millenials, etc. were taught through the family and community to be more participative instead of taught... ME ME ME, and everyone gets an A, and, well, we all have a RIGHT to a safe playground, and that we should be handed everything, and on aond on, oh, and that we are NOT responsible for our actions, then maybe that said governor would not have any reasons at all to want to be more draconian.  

True, and I fully expect that Murphy is and will continue to be challenged in court on a lot of these EO's. But I think a lot of these arguments I see raised are silly, or at least border on silly. The idea that a scarf or bandanna or even a medical grade mask is somehow violating your constitutional rights is at least. I don't see people marching with pitch forks when OSHA requires you to wear a mask on the job and shave your beard for it to be properly form fitted to your face.

[Underdog 1,593]

I have no problem with wearing face masks in public.  I have no problem with requesting one to do so.  I have a problem with mandating it.  I have a problem with releasing criminals back out and having them commit crimes over.  There was just an example of that in Middletown.  The Governor should be responsible for that.  I have a problem with banning members of the press, and or injecting your own personal views (and violating the oath you made).   I also slightly have a  problem with requiring masks if they are not provided.   That said, if somone needs a mask in my neighborhood, or gloves, I can provide, and/or sew one for him or her.  

[Spawne32 37]

1 minute ago, Underdog said:

I have no problem with wearing face masks in public.  I have no problem with requesting one to do so.  I have a problem with mandating it.  I have a problem with releasing criminals back out and having them commit crimes over.  There was just an example of that in Middletown.  The Governor should be responsible for that.  I have a problem with banning members of the press, and or injecting your own personal views (and violating the oath you made).   I also slightly have a  problem with requiring masks if they are not provided.  

Well like I said, some of these EO's will be and probably need to be challenged. I was pretty enraged over the criminal release order as well myself.

[Scorpio64 5,147]

The whole point of wearing a mask is to reduce risk.  We all like that, right? 

Seriously, what's the big deal?  Are you so handsome that covering your face to protect others would be a crime?

Yanno, in a small way, all this mask wearing is actually making our society stronger, cohesive.  The mask wearers are unknowingly engaging in a period of social bonding.  It's the same deal as wearing bandannas, it's a uniform object that represents a group with a common interest.

If Maks wasn't so stingy with photo storage, I'd show you my mask.  Its got an American flag on it.  USA  USA   USA  We are going to survive the shit out of this Chinese bat stew flu. 

America's prestige as a global leader is at stake.  If we don't have the lowest death rate, it will be an embarrassment.  The world will question our status as a nation of people able to get shit done.

 

[Underdog 1,593]

3 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

True, and I fully expect that Murphy is and will continue to be challenged in court on a lot of these EO's. But I think a lot of these arguments I see raised are silly, or at least border on silly. The idea that a scarf or bandanna or even a medical grade mask is somehow violating your constitutional rights is at least. I don't see people marching with pitch forks when OSHA requires you to wear a mask on the job and shave your beard for it to be properly form fitted to your face.

I agree, but what does "requiring" mean?  Fines/Jail/Impound car/Pepper Spray... If you are going to require it, then how do you enforce it.  I saw officers near my home today and they didn't have masks on.  They were State Police...  Still, just because others violate a edict, rule, felony? or such doesn't mean you should.

Personally, I am responsible for my family.  If I am not doing all I can to protect them, and/or if I have to venture out, or go out as an essential person, then I would want to keep my family, and all those strangers  safe, as well as myself not being a burden.  

[JohnnyB 4,324]

 

47 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

No one has the authority to force him to wear anything, not even pants. 

@PK90 will love to hear that!

[Spawne32 37]

2 minutes ago, Underdog said:

I agree, but what does "requiring" mean?  Fines/Jail/Impound car/Pepper Spray... If you are going to require it, then how do you enforce it.  I saw officers near my home today and they didn't have masks on.  They were State Police...  Still, just because others violate a edict, rule, felony? or such doesn't mean you should.

Personally, I am responsible for my family.  If I am not doing all I can to protect them, and/or if I have to venture out, or go out as an essential person, then I would want to keep my family, and all those strangers  safe, as well as myself not being a burden.  

Far as I am aware, and this is just from what I heard, you are just being asked by store managers/security to please wear a face covering or please leave. As someone mentioned above, no different then the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" rule that we are all so familiar with.

[Underdog 1,593]

6 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

The whole point of wearing a mask is to reduce risk.  We all like that, right? 

Seriously, what's the big deal?  Are you so handsome that covering your face to protect others would be a crime?

Yanno, in a small way, all this mask wearing is actually making our society stronger, cohesive.  The mask wearers are unknowingly engaging in a period of social bonding.  It's the same deal as wearing bandannas, it's a uniform object that represents a group with a common interest.

If Maks wasn't so stingy with photo storage, I'd show you my mask.  Its got an American flag on it.  USA  USA   USA  We are going to survive the shit out of this Chinese bat stew flu. 

America's prestige as a global leader is at stake.  If we don't have the lowest death rate, it will be an embarrassment.  The world will question our status as a nation of people able to get shit done.

 

I don't care about our prestige... The Capitalism and Freedoms will always win out.  I care about weakening our nation enough to bring it to its knees.  Imagine infecting our military?  Imagine not being able to transport food across our nation?   We would be too vulnerable.  Because of the evil (including Marxism/Communism/Statism) we still need to carry the biggest stick and take the leadership role and example for the rest of the less humane nations and entities on this oblate spheroid.  .  

[WP22 1,558]

Wait, is wearing mask in public mandatory now? I thought it was only store employees and shoppers.

[Scorpio64 5,147]

1 minute ago, Underdog said:

I don't care about our prestige...

You are a silly wabbit.  First you say you don't care, then go on to support all of the things that represent America's prestige.  Strong military, strong economy, American's not on their knees.

[Spawne32 37]

1 minute ago, WP22 said:

Wait, is wearing mask in public mandatory now? I thought it was only store employees and shoppers.

Order was issued yesterday that all stores are to require customers to wear face coverings, it was on NJ.com  however I can't find the article for it. Saw on it on their facebook page.

[Spawne32 37]

C'mon guy's any other day of the week you guys would wear your skull and cross bones or american flag/NRA flag gaiters and never bat an eye. Now the governor says you won't look weird wearing it in public and you guys are mad?  You can even look like joe exotic if you want and go around saying that bitch carol baskins did it.

https://sketchculture.com/collections/the-tiger-king/products/joe-exotic-face-cover-neck-gaiter?utm_source=paid_social&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sketch&utm_content=joeexoticfacecover&fbclid=IwAR0_eawClQyvSZo869OTO8vUA03dE0qinbrORbb7rZgZEHDYYnpun-XzGsw

[Indianajonze 379]

[WP22 1,558]

///

 

[Indianajonze 379]

ok 3 more and then i'm done:

1. walking across the street is now illegal in michigan...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/04/09/no-more-visiting-friends-and-neighbors-under-whitmers-expanded-coronavirus-order/5125426002/?fbclid=IwAR20iE6ulmhAK0cTbvSW-OUcY9WsULTFoqDL8WPVIfImev8OaWjnAcxpu_Q

 

2. you are no longer "allowed" to buy clothes in parts of the usa...

https://www.businessinsider.com/costco-walmart-target-stop-selling-non-essential-items-select-states-2020-4?fbclid=IwAR3ESXEu1dd3BBHKdpCyKhNgnvxvGjFLJ4-rH_fJsSCPumuDL7AIeCTPpAU

 

3. man forcibly removed from bus for not wearing a mask

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/man-without-face-mask-refuses-to-leave-septa-bus-police-pull-him-off/2359607/?fbclid=IwAR3upocMSPfp-Yn-qUbjCsQyQA2jDgVuf_IBWvzdri0NW4AvkJdMvUU-NZM

 

but hey, there's nothing to see here. all is well. it's for the general welfare after all

[Spawne32 37]

14 minutes ago, Indianajonze said:

ok 3 more and then i'm done:

1. walking across the street is now illegal in michigan...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/04/09/no-more-visiting-friends-and-neighbors-under-whitmers-expanded-coronavirus-order/5125426002/?fbclid=IwAR20iE6ulmhAK0cTbvSW-OUcY9WsULTFoqDL8WPVIfImev8OaWjnAcxpu_Q

 

2. you are no longer "allowed" to buy clothes in parts of the usa...

https://www.businessinsider.com/costco-walmart-target-stop-selling-non-essential-items-select-states-2020-4?fbclid=IwAR3ESXEu1dd3BBHKdpCyKhNgnvxvGjFLJ4-rH_fJsSCPumuDL7AIeCTPpAU

 

3. man forcibly removed from bus for not wearing a mask

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/man-without-face-mask-refuses-to-leave-septa-bus-police-pull-him-off/2359607/?fbclid=IwAR3upocMSPfp-Yn-qUbjCsQyQA2jDgVuf_IBWvzdri0NW4AvkJdMvUU-NZM

 

but hey, there's nothing to see here. all is well. it's for the general welfare after all

I ain't gonna lie, its getting nutty out there, but I trust that the system will work these issues out in the court the way its supposed to. When he sues the shit out of the police department for that and they lose the case and whatever reasoning they used for doing that gets overturned, the rest of the country will follow suit.

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

10 hours ago, silverado427 said:

What's next.     "We need to disarm you for your own safety "

 

The nypd has pulled back and given dreggs the streets for now....  but you think during this ur local pd has enough time and manpower to go door to door?  Not happening.

[Malsua 1,422]

11 hours ago, Indianajonze said:

your logic is deeply flawed. using your math (which i heavily dispute, but let's play), if a person may have the virus and decides to go out and about with their magical bandana, and said magical bandana knocks their spewed viral load down by 70%, that means that i, a very healthy adult male, now must endure an increased 30% risk of catching a virus from some jackass who should have kept their sick ass home but instead decided to venture out on the advice of dr phil murphy and his magical bandana. knocking down big chunks of the virus when they never should have been there in the first place is of no value, so i don't understand your point of wearing a covering to catch a portion of a virus. either you stop all of it (n95/p100) or you don't waste your time. this bandana crap is going to get people killed, but that's not even my overall point. no one has the authority to force me to wear anything on my head is my point, unless i sign up for it as part of my religion, and i certainly did not do that

edit: completely unrelated to the above nonsense, but this apocalypse does bring occasional good news:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-atf-authorizes-drive-through-gun-sales-to-maintain-social-distancing/

drive through gun sales! one step closer to my dream of being able to buy guns and ammo from a vending machine...

Masks stop you from coughing it out and it stops me from breathing it in.  Every barrier helps.

You clearly don't understand what a low inoculum means though.    You wanna know why seemingly healthy health care workers get a bad course of the disease and die?  They probably got a HUGE inoculum of virus.   Someone breathed in their face and billions of virus particles entered their system and started replicating.   From exposure to full on disease might occur within two days.  Their body had 48 hours to mount a defense and start fighting it.   Some evidence indicates it takes this long for the body to even begin fighting it.   Their system gets overwhelmed. They lose.

Citizen b, wearing a bandana walked through a cloud some pre-symptomatic person coughed out 5 minutes ago.   He got a very low inoculum because a good portion of it stuck to his covering.    The disease starts replicating in a small number of cells.   10 days later, when the infection gets large enough to showing symptoms, antibodies, macrophages and the whole damn 5th army of white blood cells has shown up and is stomping the guts out of the virus.  Citizen b feels a tickle in his throat and goes on about his business.  He's in that 80% that gets a minor case.

You've decided to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.   Fair enough, you want a big ole fat dose of it?  More power to ya.

 

 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

10 hours ago, silverado427 said:

You would be surprised how many sheep would  turn in their firearms with no fight.

they would be the very same people that are calling for roadblocks, checkpoints, calling the police on their neighbors for gatherings etc. they'd also happily climb in the train car if told to.

[Malsua 1,422]

1 hour ago, Malsua said:

Masks stop you from coughing it out and it stops me from breathing it in.  Every barrier helps.

You clearly don't understand what a low inoculum means though.    You wanna know why seemingly healthy health care workers get a bad course of the disease and die?  They probably got a HUGE inoculum of virus.   Someone breathed in their face and billions of virus particles entered their system and started replicating.   From exposure to full on disease might occur within two days.  Their body had 48 hours to mount a defense and start fighting it.   Some evidence indicates it takes this long for the body to even begin fighting it.   Their system gets overwhelmed. They lose.

Citizen b, wearing a bandana walked through a cloud some pre-symptomatic person coughed out 5 minutes ago.   He got a very low inoculum because a good portion of it stuck to his covering.    The disease starts replicating in a small number of cells.   10 days later, when the infection gets large enough to showing symptoms, antibodies, macrophages and the whole damn 5th army of white blood cells has shown up and is stomping the guts out of the virus.  Citizen b feels a tickle in his throat and goes on about his business.  He's in that 80% that gets a minor case.

You've decided to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.   Fair enough, you want a big ole fat dose of it?  More power to ya.

 

 

Just a quick addendum

Start watching this video about Inoculums (it starts at the appropriate timecode) from March 15 by DR Chris Martenson, PHD in pathogy.   It helps you to understand why a face mask matters: