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1 minute ago, DonkeyPunch said:

No, you are innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution would have to make its case for guilt. Juries aren't instructed any differently in firearms cases.

 

Slingshots are legal with "an explainable, lawful purpose." I don't know of anyone getting harassed for using slingshots for target practice in NJ.

I disagree, the way the laws are written, the possessor of the gun has to prove (s)he meets one of the exceptions. In theory, I agree with you, reality in NJ is different.

Regarding the slingshot, I'd have to re-read the Statute. My point was the pure stupidity of NJ politicians and the general public that vote for them.

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6 minutes ago, kc17 said:

I disagree, the way the laws are written, the possessor of the gun has to prove (s)he meets one of the exceptions. In theory, I agree with you, reality in NJ is different.

In what way is the law written that makes one guilty until proven innocent? Can you be specific?

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11 minutes ago, DonkeyPunch said:

In what way is the law written that makes one guilty until proven innocent? Can you be specific?

Possession of firearms in NJ is illegal .... EXCEPT under certain exempted locations/situations.

Since possession is illegal by default, the burden of proof is on the possessor to show that they are in an exempted location/situation.

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15 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Possession of firearms in NJ is illegal .... EXCEPT under certain exempted locations/situations.

Since possession is illegal by default, the burden of proof is on the possessor to show that they are in an exempted location/situation.

False. It is up to the police officer to have probable cause for an arrest and the courts to go ahead and prosecute you and a jury to find that the prosecution has met its burden of proof that you are guilty. 

If one has to show a license or permit, then one must do so as agreed when they applied. The same for drivers licences and this applies in every state.

I haven't been shown that NJ is any different than any other state in regard to being innocent until proven guilty. I asked for a specific law.

The jury will be given a lesson on defendants being innocent until proven guilty before they are even picked for a case. The judge will instruct the jury that it is the prosecution's burden to prove the defendant guilty. Any halfway decent defense attorney will belabor that point.

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45 minutes ago, DonkeyPunch said:

Slingshots are legal with "an explainable, lawful purpose." I don't know of anyone getting harassed for using slingshots for target practice in NJ.

Certain day camps in this state have slingshot ranges.  ;-)

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1 hour ago, DonkeyPunch said:

False. It is up to the police officer to have probable cause for an arrest and the courts to go ahead and prosecute you and a jury to find that the prosecution has met its burden of proof that you are guilty. 

If one has to show a license or permit, then one must do so as agreed when they applied. The same for drivers licences and this applies in every state.

I haven't been shown that NJ is any different than any other state in regard to being innocent until proven guilty. I asked for a specific law.

The jury will be given a lesson on defendants being innocent until proven guilty before they are even picked for a case. The judge will instruct the jury that it is the prosecution's burden to prove the defendant guilty. Any halfway decent defense attorney will belabor that point.

@DonkeyPunch  WHOA NELLIE!

You're from Dreamland & have a lot to grasp.  Where you come from (where is THAT, exactly?) things are much simpler.  The laws are written WITH the USCON in mind.  Here in Joisey, ALL firearms are inherently ILLEGAL (they start-out that way!), and therefore exist in the hands of us serfs only through the use of EXCEPTIONS & EXEMPTIONS as stipulated in the 2C Firearms Statutes and case law.  The answer @DirtyDigz gave you is 10,000% CORRECT!  You sir owe him an apology and need to do some serious homework!

I'm considered an authority on this subject, am well-known throughout the NJ 2nd Amendment community, and as the Vice President of the busiest 2A group in NJ, have appeared too many times to mention at various venues up & down the state.  I lecture on this subject, as it's my WHEELHOUSE!  I have 48 years of experience behind the trigger, am a former Trustee of my local R&P club, I'm currently a Match Director of a hand gun league (Police Practical Competition---PPC),  shoot action leagues competitively, etc., etc., etc.  To just skim the surface of what I & most of the NJGF elders know, suggest you visit https://www.cnjfo.com/news  and https://www.JustifiableNeed.com .  

A NJ Judge was already DISBARRED for the way in which he oversaw a trial, refused attempts by the Defense Counsel to enter the aforementioned EXEMPTIONS INTO EVIDENCE, and the way he charged the Jury!  The case was Brian Aitken's.  Aitken wrote a book entitled, "Blue Tent Sky".  There's a GOLDMINE of 2A reality in there that every NJ gun owner should READ! 

This video is about 14 months old.  A friend of mine drove almost 3 hours to get there to do it.  I & a few other #2AHeavyLifters  have been invited back for March 26th and they rented a hotel meeting room for the event.

 

 

1 hour ago, DirtyDigz said:

Possession of firearms in NJ is illegal .... EXCEPT under certain exempted locations/situations.

Since possession is illegal by default, the burden of proof is on the possessor to show that they are in an exempted location/situation.

@DonkeyPunch  Suggest you do some homework so you truly grasp what it is to be a NJ gun owner in the Communist People's Republic of New Jerseystan!

Rosey

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21 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

@DonkeyPunch  WHOA NELLIE!

You're from Dreamland & have a lot to grasp.  Where you come from (where is THAT, exactly?) things are much simpler.  The laws are written WITH the USCON in mind.  Here in Joisey, ALL firearms are inherently ILLEGAL (they start-out that way!), and therefore exist in the hands of us serfs only through the use of EXCEPTIONS & EXEMPTIONS as stipulated in the 2C Firearms Statutes and case law.  The answer @DirtyDigz gave you is 10,000% CORRECT!  You sir owe him an apology and need to do some serious homework!

I'm considered an authority on this subject, am well-known throughout the NJ 2nd Amendment community, and as the Vice President of the busiest 2A group in NJ, have appeared too many times to mention at various venues up & down the state.  I lecture on this subject, as it's my WHEELHOUSE!  I have 48 years of experience behind the trigger, am a former Trustee of my local R&P club, I'm currently a Match Director of a hand gun league (Police Practical Competition---PPC),  shoot action leagues competitively, etc., etc., etc.  To just skim the surface of what I & most of the NJGF elders know, suggest you visit https://www.cnjfo.com/news  and https://www.JustifiableNeed.com .  

A NJ Judge was already DISBARRED for the way in which he oversaw a trial, refused attempts by the Defense Counsel to enter the aforementioned EXEMPTIONS INTO EVIDENCE, and the way he charged the Jury!  The case was Brian Aitken's.  Aitken wrote a book entitled, "Blue Tent Sky".  There's a GOLDMINE of 2A reality in there that every NJ gun owner should READ! 

This video is about 14 months old.  A friend of mine drove almost 3 hours to get there to do it.  I & a few other #2AHeavyLifters  been invited back for March 26th and they rented a hotel meeting room for the event.

 

 

Suggest you do some homework so you truly grasp what it is to be a NJ gun owner in the Communist People's Republic of New Jerseystan!

Rosey

Oh boy. Things are much simpler where I'm from, but you don't know where I'm from? Interesting.

 

Joisey? That's not how we talk here.

 

I owe him an apology? I haven't been shown I was wrong, but even if I were, that's a childish statement. People don't owe others any apology for being wrong in a forum when arguing in good faith. 

 

I don't care if you consider yourself an authority. You haven't shown that I am wrong and are relying on "I know more than you" type statements for me to believe otherwise. Ain't gonna happen.

 

No, the judge was not "disbarred", Mr. Expert. You might want to brush up on big legal words.

But if he was, do you not realize you're strengthening my point that NJ laws aren't written so one is guilty until proven innocent?

You should also learn what communism is.

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2C:39-2.  Presumptions
      a.  Possession of firearms, weapons, destructive devices, silencers, or explosives in a vehicle.    When a firearm, weapon, destructive device, silencer, or explosive described in this chapter is found in a vehicle, it is presumed to be in the possession of the occupant if there is but one. If there is more than one occupant in the vehicle, it shall be presumed to be in the possession of all, except under the following circumstances:

    (1) When it is found upon the person of one of the occupants, it shall be presumed to be in the possession of that occupant alone;

    (2) When the vehicle is not a stolen one and the weapon or other instrument  is found out of view in a glove compartment, trunk or other enclosed customary  depository, it shall be presumed to be in the possession of the occupant or  occupants who own or have authority to operate the vehicle;  and

    (3) When the vehicle is a taxicab and a weapon or other instrument is found  in the passenger's portion of the vehicle, it shall be presumed to be in the  possession of all the passengers, if there are any, and if not, in the possession of the driver.

      b.  Licenses and permits.    When the legality of a person's conduct under  this chapter depends on his possession of a license or permit or on his having  registered with or given notice to a particular person or agency, it shall be  presumed that he does not possess such a license or permit or has not  registered or given the required notice, until he establishes the contrary.

    L.1978, c. 95, s. 2C:39-2, eff. Sept. 1, 1979.  Amended by L.1979, c. 179, s. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1979.

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Your comprehension of the English language really sucks.

NJ Statute 2C:39-2 establishes as law, that where firearms are concerned (You should read Chapters 39 and 58 in their entirety) YOU ARE PRESUMED GUILTY UNTIL YOU CAN PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE.

Welcome to the Glorious Peoples Republik of New Jerseystan, newbie. THIS IS NOT AMERICA.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

In your case they are not illegal. They are only illegal to possess without lawful purpose. You appear to have a lawful purpose.

I since looked up the actual Statute and see the exception. I was not overly concerned about it, more so trying to make a comment on the stupidity of NJ.

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24 minutes ago, drjjpdc said:

I wonder how many other folks on this forum know this.

The New Jersey Constitution contains no provisions relating to the keeping or bearing of arms.  

It's one of the few states without them. One time I heard in passing ( I have absolutely no idea if it's true) that when the constitution was rewritten it was decided not to include a 2A since it was already protected under the US constitution. Again, I have no idea if this is true.

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4 minutes ago, WP22 said:

It's one of the few states without them. One time I heard in passing ( I have absolutely no idea if it's true) that when the constitution was rewritten it was decided not to include a 2A since it was already protected under the US constitution. Again, I have no idea if this is true.

Nah. The current Constitution was issued in 1947 and has been amended several times. It mentions lots of rights from the US Constitution, e.g., voting, right to assemble, freedom of speech, a speedy trial... 

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21 minutes ago, DonkeyPunch said:

Nah. The current Constitution was issued in 1947 and has been amended several times. It mentions lots of rights from the US Constitution, e.g., voting, right to assemble, freedom of speech, a speedy trial... 

No idea how liberal or anti 2A NJ was back in 1947... But I’d think back then it was a good state to live in - prosperity, industry, and an ideal location.  I’d assume back then better heads prevailed?

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Innocent until proven guilty. NJ is no different. 

Why don't the police stop everyone walking into a range and make them show papers to prove possession? If no proof, lock'em up. Some people here think that it would be legal per NJ law. I'm surprised at some of the "experts" opinions.

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6 hours ago, DonkeyPunch said:

I haven't been shown that NJ is any different than any other state in regard to being innocent until proven guilty. I asked for a specific law.


Here's the specific statutes:

2C:39-5  Unlawful possession of weapons.

Quote

   b.   Handguns.  (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

Possession of a handgun without a carry permit is illegal.

Quote

   c.   Rifles and shotguns.  (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

Possessing a rifle or shotgun without a FID is illegal.

Quote


   d.   Other weapons.  Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

2C:39-6  Exemptions
The exemptions to the blanket illegal possession of firearms conditions in 2C:39-5 (emphasis added):

Quote

   e.   Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person's place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to the person's residence or place of business, between the person's dwelling and place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between the person's dwelling or place of business and place where the firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair.  For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

f.   Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:
   (1)   A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying firearms necessary for target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

   (2)   A person carrying a firearm or knife in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purpose of hunting, target practice or fishing, provided that the firearm or knife is legal and appropriate for hunting or fishing purposes in this State and the person has in his possession a valid hunting license, or, with respect to fresh water fishing, a valid fishing license;

   (3)   A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:

   (a)   Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided the person has in possession a valid hunting or fishing license; or

   (b)   Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

   (c)   In the case of a firearm, directly to or from any exhibition or display of firearms which is sponsored by any law enforcement agency, any rifle or pistol club, or any firearms collectors club, for the purpose of displaying the firearms to the public or to the members of the organization or club, provided, however, that not less than 30 days prior to the exhibition or display, notice of the exhibition or display shall be given to the Superintendent of the State Police by the sponsoring organization or club, and the sponsor has complied with any reasonable safety regulations the superintendent may promulgate.  Any firearms transported pursuant to this section shall be transported in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;
 

In order to prove that possession is covered under one of the exemptions, a defendant has to go to trial and establish a rational basis of the facts to prove that they fall under the exemption. 

In other words - in NJ, a prosecutor only has to prove that you possessed a handgun and didn't have a carry permit in order for you to be convicted under 2C:39-5.  The prosecutor does not have to prove  that a defendant wasn't under an exemption.  The defendant has to prove that they were.
 

 

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9 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Innocent until proven guilty. NJ is no different. 

Why don't the police stop everyone walking into a range and make them show papers to prove possession? If no proof, lock'em up. Some people here think that it would be legal per NJ law. I'm surprised at some of the "experts" opinions.

Because a range is an exempted location?

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^ I assume you're under the impression that because the law states "is guilty of...", that means one is guilty until proven innocent, correct?

If so, you are mistaken. It would be no different than if the wording were "it is prohibited..." or any other language. "It is prohibited..." means there is a law saying you can't [fill in the blank] and if a jury finds you did said thing, you are guilty. You are still innocent until proven guilty. Every court in every state is set up this way. There are zero exceptions. 

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Just now, PK90 said:

Ok. Bad example. Driving to a range without proof.

Ok - traffic stop, officer observes gun cases in car.  Most officers will probably ask the question where driver is heading, and probably accept an answer of "to range/to gunsmith/to home". 

However, officer ALSO legally has the option in NJ to use the mere presence of firearm as probable cause to search the car, check for carry permit/FID, arrest if carry permit/FID is not present and leave it to the car occupants to prove their exemption at trial.

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2 minutes ago, DonkeyPunch said:

... You are still innocent until proven guilty. Every court in every state is set up this way. There are zero exceptions. 

I took the time to write it, please go back and read in its entirety.

If you possess a handgun and don't have a carry permit, NJ has the option to charge you with illegal possession, and unless you can prove you are within one of the exemptions, you can be found guilty.

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12 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

The prosecutor does not have to *disprove*  that a defendant wasn't under an exemption.  The defendant has to prove that they were.
 

 

Not disprove, prove. The prosecutor has to prove that the defendant wasn't under an exemption. The burden of proof is always on the prosecution.

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Just now, DonkeyPunch said:

Not disprove, prove. The prosecutor has to prove that the defendant wasn't under an exemption. The burden of proof is always on the prosecution.

BULLSHIT

Not in NJ when it comes to guns

Read 2C:39-2 again.

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3 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Ok - traffic stop, officer observes gun cases in car.  Most officers will probably ask the question where driver is heading, and probably accept an answer of "to range/to gunsmith/to home". 

However, officer ALSO legally has the option in NJ to use the mere presence of firearm as probable cause to search the car, check for carry permit/FID, arrest if carry permit/FID is not present and leave it to the car occupants to prove their exemption at trial.

I would answer "I have nothing to say"- repeatedly. 

What exemption? That he is headed to the firing range? Nope. You're wrong. The prosecution must prove that you weren't on your way to the firing range.

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3 minutes ago, DonkeyPunch said:

Not disprove, prove. The prosecutor has to prove that the defendant wasn't under an exemption. The burden of proof is always on the prosecution.

I edited that, it no longer says *disprove*.  All the prosecution has to do is prove you possessed a handgun without a carry permit.  It's up to the defendant to prove that they were covered by an exemption.

1 minute ago, DonkeyPunch said:

...The prosecution must prove that you weren't on your way to the firing range.

No, the prosecution does not have to prove that.  If you don't believe us here, please go ask some NJ lawyers who handle firearms cases.

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3 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

Read 2C:39-2 again.

I've read it. Yes, when it comes to licenses and permits, you must show when asked. Again, I stated that early on:

"If one has to show a license or permit, then one must do so as agreed when they applied. The same for drivers licences and this applies in every state."

That is not evidence that one is guilty until proven innocent.

 

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