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Is anyone going to start carrying? How about hunting?

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35 minutes ago, oldguysrule649 said:

When I purchased my 12 gauge shotgun 6 years ago(btw, my first firearm purchase In decades), I naively thought non-lethal rounds would be a good idea and purchased several varieties.  However, after further educating myself, my goto shotgun defensive round became #4 buckshot.  If confronted with an armed intruder, and fearing for my life, once I make the decision to shoot, I want it to be as effective as possible.  Why give the intruder a second chance to inflict unspeakable horrors upon you and your loved ones.

They are not "non-lethal" rounds they are "less-lethal".  If you hit someone in the wrong place or from too close a distance with a less-lethal round you can most definitely kill them.  

25 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Does anyone here actually know of someone who pulled the trigger on a intruder? We all speculate, but what happens to you in reality, after the cops show up? What type of legal headaches follow?

I know my wife would really be pissed if I splattered intruder blood on the carpet. :swoon:

I shot someone as a LEO in 2012 (not with a shotgun, not in NJ) but the investigation process for that is different.  When I was in the investigations division I worked a number of shootings, but since it wasn't in this state, probably not an accurate prediction of what would happen here. 

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40 minutes ago, Regular Guy said:

When I was in the investigations division I worked a number of shootings, but since it wasn't in this state, probably not an accurate prediction of what would happen here. 

Can you give a general idea how fooked the shooter was, in a self defense situation, not a 'hood shooting?

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I would like to go on record the thought of things going THIS sideways is repulsive to me.

I only shoot at paper targets and would NEVER intentionally harm another human being.

documented.

 

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8 hours ago, Regular Guy said:

 

They are not "non-lethal" rounds they are "less-lethal".  If you hit someone in the wrong place or from too close a distance with a less-lethal round you can most definitely kill them.  

You are correct. I misspoke.  Thanks for the clarification.  

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23 hours ago, Sniper said:

Can you give a general idea how fooked the shooter was, in a self defense situation, not a 'hood shooting?

I only remember 1 self defense shooting off the top of my head.  2 guys ordered a pizza and gave the address of vacant house.  Pizza guy showed up and got jumped by the 2 guys.  Their goal was to rob the pizza guy.  A scuffle took place on the porch and the pizza guy got knocked off the porch, breaking his leg when he hit the ground.  As the attackers came down to continue the assault, pizza guy shot (and killed if I remember correctly) one bad guy, causing the other to flee.  It was immediately ruled self defense and he was not charged.  The lead detective called the prosecutor, discussed the major details right there on the scene and it was a cut and dry self defense shooting.

The rest were shootings that were not self defense.   

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On 3/20/2020 at 11:44 AM, Sniper said:

I was having a conversation last night, regarding the natives getting restless when their paychecks stop. We've been talking here about lethal rounds for self defense.

Has anyone considered using non-lethal rounds instead? If the situation truly arises that you need to defend from a tweaker getting in, do you want to deal with that bloody mess, and all the police and legal crap that comes with it?

What about some non-lethal rounds from a 12 ga, like bean bag rounds or rubber bullets? Certainly would get the point across to the invaders, but might not bring all that other legal crap.

Just spitballin here...

I understand where you’re going here...but I don’t think less than lethal rounds are a good idea in this situation. 
 

“Deadly force, also known as lethal force, is use of force that he/she knows causes the risk of death or serious bodily harm to another person. Its use is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed.“

IMHO, if you’ve reached the point where it’s time to pull your weapon, it’s time for lethal force to be used, because all lesser means have failed or cannot be reasonably employed. 

If someone breaks into my home while we are in it...one has to presume they are there to cause death or serious bodily harm to me or my family. That gets the ‘I feared for my life’ response, which in my mind, means ‘Molly get the mop’. The intruder(s) are going to get lethal force used on them. Until they are no longer a threat to me and my family. 

Period. 
 

If you are using less than lethal rounds, you are, (IMHO) NOT in fear for your life. 
 

I fully realize NJ has some fucked up laws when it comes to self defense, but I’d rather stand in front of a jury explaining WHY I defended my life/family than being put into a hole in the ground, or worse, burying a family member because I failed to employ lethal force in that last resort moment. 
 

Just my $.02.

 


 

 

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2 hours ago, Displaced Texan said:

IMHO, if you’ve reached the point where it’s time to pull your weapon, it’s time for lethal force to be used, because all lesser means have failed or cannot be reasonably employed. 

If someone breaks into my home while we are in it...one has to presume they are there to cause death or serious bodily harm to me or my family. That gets the ‘I feared for my life’ response, which in my mind, means ‘Molly get the mop’. The intruder(s) are going to get lethal force used on them. Until they are no longer a threat to me and my family. 

No. I absolutely agree for the majority of situations. I was just spitballin, as I expect the "tweakers", out of work, who are just trying to do a quick "grab and run" of a few dollars to feed their habit. Maybe some rubber bullets will make them think twice about stopping back, and eliminate the whole messy legal crap and clean up on "Aisle One". Just another "war game" exercise...

3 hours ago, Displaced Texan said:

I fully realize NJ has some fucked up laws when it comes to self defense, but I’d rather stand in front of a jury explaining WHY I defended my life/family than being put into a hole in the ground, or worse, burying a family member because I failed to employ lethal force in that last resort moment. 

That's why I asked the question. NJ doesn't have a clear Castle Doctrine like other free states, I was just speculating on how to turn the threat away, without having to put the family through legal jeopardy. My whole defensive plan is built around pulling the trigger as the last resort, showing that I deployed other measures first to deter the threat. Most of that is designed to help my legal defense.  :scratchhead:

I have zero concerns or worries if it comes to pulling the trigger. But I'm also cognizant of how much bullshit I'll go through after that act.

How screwed up up is that? Having a plan of action to help prove your innocence, instead of just defending against threat, because of how we're treated in this state. :no2:

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1. There is no duty to retreat in your home. Defend as necessary to neutralize the threat.

2. The police are not your friends. In a state of shock you could misspeak. Invoke the 5th Amendment and remain silent.

3. Contact a competent attorney. A couple hours of his or her time will be much less expensive than defending you against your own words being used against you by a prosecutor looking to make a name for himself or herself.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

1. There is no duty to retreat in your home. Defend as necessary to neutralize the threat.

2. The police are not your friends. In a state of shock you could misspeak. Invoke the 5th Amendment and remain silent.

3. Contact a competent attorney. A couple hours of his or her time will be much less expensive than defending you against your own words being used against you by a prosecutor looking to make a name for himself or herself.

 

 

1a. You should have a weapon light in order to make sure you don’t accidentally shoot an unintended target

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2 hours ago, carl_g said:

 

1a. You should have a weapon light in order to make sure you don’t accidentally shoot an unintended target

I'm not a fan of lights. 

Because...  it gives away your position. 

If the bad guy is waiting in the dark, he easily sees the light coming. 

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16 minutes ago, deerpark said:

I'm not a fan of lights. 

Because...  it gives away your position. 

If the bad guy is waiting in the dark, he easily sees the light coming. 

I'm not a fan of them either.  I don't need one.  No one knows your own house better than you.  If you remember the final scene in the movie "Enough!", Jennifer Lopez is counting the steps she can take before she reaches an obstacle in your husband's house.  She practices moving in the darkened room.  With a few years practice, I am confident in my ability to do that.....And I have no one else to worry about in the house.

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47 minutes ago, deerpark said:

I'm not a fan of lights. 

Because...  it gives away your position. 

If the bad guy is waiting in the dark, he easily sees the light coming. 

 

22 minutes ago, dilbert1967 said:

I'm not a fan of them either.  I don't need one.  No one knows your own house better than you.  If you remember the final scene in the movie "Enough!", Jennifer Lopez is counting the steps she can take before she reaches an obstacle in your husband's house.  She practices moving in the darkened room.  With a few years practice, I am confident in my ability to do that.....And I have no one else to worry about in the house.

You two are dangerous.   

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25 minutes ago, dilbert1967 said:

I'm not a fan of them either.  I don't need one.  No one knows your own house better than you.  If you remember the final scene in the movie "Enough!", Jennifer Lopez is counting the steps she can take before she reaches an obstacle in your husband's house.  She practices moving in the darkened room.  With a few years practice, I am confident in my ability to do that.....And I have no one else to worry about in the house.

You got your firearm training from a j lo movie?

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24 minutes ago, dilbert1967 said:

I'm not a fan of them either.  I don't need one.  No one knows your own house better than you.  If you remember the final scene in the movie "Enough!", Jennifer Lopez is counting the steps she can take before she reaches an obstacle in your husband's house.  She practices moving in the darkened room.  With a few years practice, I am confident in my ability to do that.....And I have no one else to worry about in the house.

Exactly how I feel, and got a ton of crap for it. No one knows your house better than you. I think the guys who think they need a WL, have never actually did any drill or practice to see how they get around in the dark. The worst thing you can do is give up the tactical advantage of knowing your surroundings by advertising with a spotlight "Here I come!!!"

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1 minute ago, Sniper said:

Exactly how I feel, and got a ton of crap for it. No one knows your house better than you. I think the guys who think they need a WL, have never actually did any drill or practice to see how they get around in the dark. The worst thing you can do is give up the tactical advantage of knowing your surroundings by advertising with a spotlight "Here I come!!!"

You THREE are dangerous.

Officer:  "why did you shoot your ________?"

You 3:  "It was dark and I was scared.   J-Lo can do it, so I thought I could too.  Guess not. "

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1 hour ago, deerpark said:

I'm not a fan of lights. 

Because...  it gives away your position. 

If the bad guy is waiting in the dark, he easily sees the light coming. 

So, uh, what do you do if you have a deadly force confrontation under normal daylight conditions? You know, where a bad guy can see you, and therefore your mere presence gives away your position?

Do you quickly throw on your cloak of invisibility? 

:facepalm:

You can’t quickly discriminate a deadly threat from a non-deadly threat, if you can’t see.

You can’t accurately shoot a positively IDed threat, if you can’t see.

You can’t accurately determine if your shots hit, if you can’t see.

You can’t verify that your hits worked to incapacitate your threat, if you can’t see.
 

The ability to see, and the mentally process what you see, is the single most important factor in deciding who wins a gunfight. Why should you engage in a gunfight and remove your biggest advantage ON PURPOSE?!?!?

The weapon light is not for navigating your home. It’s for friend/foe identification and for making deadly force decision with proper information.

I don’t care if you can somersault around your house blindfolded and never bump a wall or piece of furniture. That’s not what the light is for.

What’s important is determining if what you are pointing your gun at is a deadly threat that is a valid target, or not - and doing it faster than your opponent By getting inside their OODA loop.

But, but, but ambient light and stuff!!

Even under full daylight conditions you may need a weapon light to target discriminate a threat, let alone ambient light. 
 

Here is my son, in my kitchen during the day. (This is simply for demonstration of light conditions and how we “see” the world, even when it isn’t dark out. I’m not advocating shooting children burglars in your home, or even offering up a scenario for discussion. He is simple the model I had on hand to demonstrate this very common setup of bright background with shadow.)

What’s in his hand? A SIRT training pistol or a TV remote?

ieweU6I.jpg
 

duvgSoK.jpg

How fast could you make the determination of a shoot/no shoot under these common daytime, normal, lighting conditions if my son was actually an unknown person?

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1 hour ago, deerpark said:

I'm not a fan of lights. 

Because...  it gives away your position. 

If the bad guy is waiting in the dark, he easily sees the light coming. 

Then how do you expect to find the bad guy in the dark? 

Ya'll ninjas or something?

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7 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

So, uh, what do you do if you have a deadly force confrontation under normal daylight conditions? You know, where a bad guy can see you, and therefore your mere presence gives away your position?

Do you quickly throw on your cloak of invisibility? 

Wait....you mean you’re not ALWAYS wearing your cloak of invisibility?!!! 
 

I must be doing it wrong....

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You guys realize they have an on off switch? Jeebus you can tell the guys that watch movies to learn this stuff and not get actual training.

laze them to scare them

pump the shotgun to scare them.

its like you learned from Yeager 

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