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Ray Ray

SOCOM16, perfect or ridiculous?

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For some reason, this rifle speaks to me.  I got her as a birthday present last year and she has not disappointed.   I decided that she needed to be pressed into service, so I made some "upgrades".

Sadlak Industries front rail

Sadlak Industries enlarged magazine release 

Specter Gear 3 point sling

Inforce WMLX 

Primary Arms microdot on an American Defense quick detach mount. 

My question, is this heavy bitch an overkill or done right?

20200320_230819.jpg

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10 hours ago, vladtepes said:

I like the gun a lot but find your optic and light choice more in alignment with close shooting.. which strikes me as odd...

Which is what she is designed for.  I don't live in the country.  

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I like the look of the socom, but in reality it’s just not great from a practical standpoint. 
 

By going to 16” you are hitting 30-30 velocities.  Or 7.62x39 velocities and doing it in a bigger gun that cost more. 

Also, rocking the mags to seat them is SLOW. 

 Then there is the amount of muzzle flash, and the not great optic mounting options, and the garand thumb. 

 It looks cool, but it doesn’t add up to good. 

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39 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

I like the look of the socom, but in reality it’s just not great from a practical standpoint. 
 

By going to 16” you are hitting 30-30 velocities.  Or 7.62x39 velocities and doing it in a bigger gun that cost more. 

Also, rocking the mags to seat them is SLOW. 

 Then there is the amount of muzzle flash, and the not great optic mounting options, and the garand thumb. 

 It looks cool, but it doesn’t add up to good. 


No Garand thumb on a M1A ai it has a bolt catch, and you load it from the bottom via a magazine. Even if you use a stripper clip to load it from the top, you still have the bolt catch.

From a practicality standpoint, it is surpassed by other (AR10, SCAR, various bullpups) designs, but to each his own. No one can say you are under gunned, and I personally love the Garand/ M14/M1A family of rifles.

 

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17 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

For some reason, this rifle speaks to me.  I got her as a birthday present last year and she has not disappointed.   I decided that she needed to be pressed into service, so I made some "upgrades".

Sadlak Industries front rail

Sadlak Industries enlarged magazine release 

Specter Gear 3 point sling

Inforce WMLX 

Primary Arms microdot on an American Defense quick detach mount. 

My question, is this heavy bitch an overkill or done right?

20200320_230819.jpg

I think it's fine.

I'm a fan of the .308 caliber.

Look like it will be point and shoot up to 200 yards.

 

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4 hours ago, silverado427 said:

Every time I watch Daylights end   I want one .   I would run a LPVO and lose the light , And it needs a 20 round mag. jmho.

Bingo, someone got it.

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5 hours ago, raz-0 said:

I like the look of the socom, but in reality it’s just not great from a practical standpoint. 
 

By going to 16” you are hitting 30-30 velocities.  Or 7.62x39 velocities and doing it in a bigger gun that cost more. 

Also, rocking the mags to seat them is SLOW. 

 Then there is the amount of muzzle flash, and the not great optic mounting options, and the garand thumb. 

 It looks cool, but it doesn’t add up to good. 

No, I am not getting 30-30 ballistics.  Or 7.62x39mm ballistics.  I'm getting 308 ballistics.   It's 16 inches, not 8.  And you don't lose that much going from 18 to 16.

Rocking the magazines in takes practice, yes.  But so does AKs and ARs.  Is it as fast as an AR?  Nope.  Can I do it quickly?  Yeah.

Muzzle flash isn't an issue for me, and it points naturally for most shooters.  

Garand thumb?  I'm not using stripper clips.  And IF in some insane scenario where I had to use stripper clips, it uses what's called a bolt catch.  It's a new fangled device that holds the bolt to the rear until you charge the rifle.

You could have mentioned her weight, which is heavier than most 308s.  

You could have mentioned the need for a cheek riser, but I can shoot her without one.

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.308 was designed for a 24 inch barrel. 

Based on the dudes with a rifle, a chop saw, and a chrono, with a 147gr load you are down to around 2400-2500 FPS. Which is basically what you get out of a 150gr 30-30, or a mil-spec 7.62x39 cartridge out of an ak. 
 Except in a bigger, heavier rifle. 
 

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1 hour ago, raz-0 said:

.308 was designed for a 24 inch barrel. 

Based on the dudes with a rifle, a chop saw, and a chrono, with a 147gr load you are down to around 2400-2500 FPS. Which is basically what you get out of a 150gr 30-30, or a mil-spec 7.62x39 cartridge out of an ak. 
 Except in a bigger, heavier rifle. 
 

So, a 7.62x39mm rifle is the same as a 7.62x51mm rifle?  No

Incorrect math

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15 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

So, a 7.62x39mm rifle is the same as a 7.62x51mm rifle?  No

Incorrect math

They are close enough. Sectional density and bc are slightly different,  but not different enough that once you kill a bunch of velocity you get wildly different results. 

Go chrono it. Between bleeding gas and the 16" barrel, the ballistics wont be terribly impressive. 

What it can di that those can't is shoot heavier bullets, but I'm guessing you aren't feeding it  175gr ammo. 

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7 hours ago, silverado427 said:

Every time I watch Daylights end   I want one .   I would run a LPVO and lose the light , And it needs a 20 round mag. jmho.

3 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Bingo, someone got it.

Needs an Aimpoint PRO to be like “Daylights End”.

I don’t think you can mount a LPVO up there due to eye relief issues. 

If it’s a social gun, it needs a light. You don’t shoot what you can’t see and ID as a legitimate threat.

Also, a 16” barrel is perfectly adequate for what Ray Ray is doing here. Plenty of 16” .308 gas guns out there stacking bodies in the GWOT.

Badass Ray! 

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1 hour ago, raz-0 said:

They are close enough. Sectional density and bc are slightly different,  but not different enough that once you kill a bunch of velocity you get wildly different results. 

Go chrono it. Between bleeding gas and the 16" barrel, the ballistics wont be terribly impressive. 

What it can di that those can't is shoot heavier bullets, but I'm guessing you aren't feeding it  175gr ammo. 

A 16 inch 308 is better than a 16 inch x39mm, yes.  How much better?  Ask the dude on the receiving end, he won't know the difference in all reality.   It all depends on shot placement, bullet choice and distance.  

I appreciate the back and forth, and you made some interesting points.  But I'd rather a x51mm than a x39mm.  

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28 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Needs an Aimpoint PRO to be like “Daylights End”.

I don’t think you can mount a LPVO up there due to eye relief issues. 

If it’s a social gun, it needs a light. You don’t shoot what you can’t see and ID as a legitimate threat.

Also, a 16” barrel is perfectly adequate for what Ray Ray is doing here. Plenty of 16” .308 gas guns out there stacking bodies in the GWOT.

Badass Ray! 

I thought of getting the Aimpoint Pro, and I might still switch.  Can I get a low mount for one?

It has a light, the Inforce WMLX.  The O-Light is brighter but the button is better on the Inforce.

Correct on her mission, urban environment.   Not Afghanistan.  

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25 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

I thought of getting the Aimpoint Pro, and I might still switch.  Can I get a low mount for one?

It has a light, the Inforce WMLX.  The O-Light is brighter but the button is better on the Inforce.

Correct on her mission, urban environment.   Not Afghanistan.  

Yes. ADM Also makes the lowest mount I have found for a PRO. I have one on my MSAR.

I know it has a light - because you’re sensible. I was responding to Silverado saying to lose the light.

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When I put together my AR10 I did a lot of reading. Similarly to Ray I was looking for a "battle rifle" build. I chose an 18" barrel because a lot of literature and feed back from people with 16" vs 18" was significant muzzle flash.  Since the purpose of the rifle is contact under 200 yards a long barrel is pointless, and the extra velocity.

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2 hours ago, raz-0 said:

They are close enough. Sectional density and bc are slightly different,  but not different enough that once you kill a bunch of velocity you get wildly different results. 

Go chrono it. Between bleeding gas and the 16" barrel, the ballistics wont be terribly impressive. 

What it can di that those can't is shoot heavier bullets, but I'm guessing you aren't feeding it  175gr ammo. 

Look at the difference in drop. I had to do some conversions from charts I found of .308 out of a 16” and other charts of 7.62x59. Velocities out of the 308 were superior, pushing a heavier projectile (in the neighborhood of 200+ FPS). Also, the .308 drops at almost 1/2 the rate of 7.62x39 at some distances.

It seems like an apples to oranges comparison. I’m not “that guy” with ballistics, but I can’t find any charts to compare that show the two rounds being “the same.”

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I can throw some 7.62x39  124 gr #     at you.

!00 yds     0     drop

200 yds      7.41 "  drop   I average  8" drop from a 7.62x39 ar   at  200 yds 16" barrel 

300 yds       26.84 "  drop the round drops fast

I just picked up some tula 154 gr SP  7.62x39  cant wait to try them out.

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18 minutes ago, silverado427 said:

I can throw some 7.62x39  124 gr #     at you.

!00 yds     0     drop

200 yds      7.41 "  drop   I average  8" drop from a 7.62x39 ar   at  200 yds 16" barrel 

300 yds       26.84 "  drop the round drops fast

I just picked up some tula 154 gr SP  7.62x39  cant wait to try them out.

Thanks for the info. I’ll leave the chart I was looking at here. https://rifleshooter.com/2015/02/the-16-inch-308-winchester-bolt-action-rifle/
 

Keep in mind the chart is in MRAD, so you must convert it to inches in this case.

Also, the projectile they used for the drop test was a 175 grain, which is a factor as well.

 

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34 minutes ago, Vicious said:

Look at the difference in drop. I had to do some conversions from charts I found of .308 out of a 16” and other charts of 7.62x59. Velocities out of the 308 were superior, pushing a heavier projectile (in the neighborhood of 200+ FPS). Also, the .308 drops at almost 1/2 the rate of 7.62x39 at some distances.

It seems like an apples to oranges comparison. I’m not “that guy” with ballistics, but I can’t find any charts to compare that show the two rounds being “the same.”

The 308 will perform better from 200-300 yards even at the lower velocities. However, the projectiles tends to be designed for optimum performance somewhere between 2800-3000 FPS with adequate performance at around 2400fps, and basically bullet diameter expansion sub 2000fps. 
 

With the shorter barrel you are looking at peak velocity just over 2400fps. Velocity, drop, and bullet design leave you with a 0-300 yard usable range. Which a .223 gun will stay within the sweet spot of the projectile design 0-400, be much flatter shooting and easier to aim and hit with a dot out to 300 yards. And do it in a smaller, lighter, cheaper package with better mounting options, faster mag changes, higher capacities, and let you carry more ammo in less space. 
 

The socom looks cool, but practically it’s functional but sub optimal. 

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