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Where's All That Ammo Going?

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9 hours ago, oldguysrule649 said:

Am curious whether you also considered  #4 Buck As an option  to reduce the risk of over penetration?

@oldguysrule649:

Yes, I did consider #4 buckshot, but decided against it.  Based on my research, for home defense I am more confident with a 00 buckshot shot shell with 8 - 0.33” buckshot steel balls to stop a large threatening intruder like this guy, who may well indeed have over 11” of gel (fat)...

AVB-AMG

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3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Professionals with disagree with me, but there is a reason for that...

You want a nice open pattern of 00 buck for HD at about 20 yards.. not 40 yards. Those flight control shells give you about an extra 20 yards of effective pattern spread, that's great for hunting, or someone who is really good with a shotgun in CQB to put a massive hole in targets..

Standard 00 buck at 10 yards is highly effective for the average shooter.  

 

Most HD situations... I bet that flight control hull has barely let go of the BB's, if at all,  in the distance most targets are.

 

On paper they look great, but for practicality of use... who needs that tight of a pattern beyond 20 yards in a house? I don't.. 

 

I bought a few of the high power 175 round cans  XM12700AC from federal for like 100 bucks a pop

take your shotgun to the range and pattern it with the ammo you will use.. I bet you are surprised at 7 yards.. 
I had a coworker that purchased a Mossberg 500 pistol grip only for home defense because he suffered from the Hollywood delusion of hip fire 3 ft wide spreads.. the gun shop worker also told him something like "its a shotgun you won't even have to aim"..

He is a remote worker.. so we did not have his actual gun... we brought my S12 out to the range.. which is basically a 14in shotgun without a choke and a folding stock.... and we folded up the stock and proceeded to put some rounds onto paper at like 7 yards.. keep in mind the short side of your "average" living room is only like 12ft.. with some of the ammo we were getting almost solid single holes.. to very little spread... 

a shotgun is fine if thats what you want to run.. but keep in mind in most home distances.. its going to be ALMOST LIKE a single large projectile.. obviously there is a ton of variation there for shotgun type.. choke... ammo.. etc.. one of the things that I DONT like about a shotgun is at the muzzle you have a single large projectile.. and at the furthest end you have a few inches wide that you need to account for.. I don't want to be trying to range threats in my home and make quick mental spread calculations.. I just want to point and click.. AR15 all day long.. 

 

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@Zeke

My handguns are my initial go-to home/self defense firearms.  My tactical shotgun is just an additional means of HD, if I ever have the need for it.  It also provides a psychological reassurance that I could potentially fend off more than one attacker, provided that I had the time to get to my loaded shotgun.  Of course, all of this is hypothetical, understanding that in the heat of the moment with one’s adrenaline flowing fast, especially if one has just awoken, gun selection may be impacted in an unexpected way....

AVB-AMG

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3 hours ago, W2MC said:

This reminds me of an interesting conversation I had with (I think) @vladtepes a couple years ago concerning penetration of .223 versus 12 gauge buckshot, and which was "safer" for home defense.

Contrary to my thinking, it seems the .223 went thru fewer sheetrock walls than the 00 Buck.

Surprised me....

 

what a round does is impacted by several things right... you have the high velocity of 5.56... but you have virtually no mass.. so it is not ideal for killing things on the other side of barriers... will it go through a house? sure.. almost any round can penetrate an interior structure.. but passing through the structure is going to steal a lot of velocity and energy off of the round and reduce the penetration on the other side.. that is assuming it doesn't break up or otherwise deform.. 

9... 45.. 12.. all have the capacity to penetrate deeper post interior wall.. so if thats the case.. why not just go with the best solution.. soft shooting.. highly accurate carbine.. 

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27 minutes ago, AVB-AMG said:

@oldguysrule649:

Yes, I did consider #4 buckshot, but decided against it.  Based on my research, for home defense I am more confident with a shot shell with 8 - 0.33” buckshot steel balls to stop a large threatening intruder like this guy, who may well indeed have over 11” of gel (fat)...

AVB-AMG

image.jpeg.33d05f96e819e6d282dd8374ca9c254c.jpeg

FYI Federal does make #1 Buck in Flight Control. By all accounts it is the bees-knees when it comes to shotguns.

Unfortunately, it can be hard to track down and expensive when you do.

Personally, I stick to the 12g 8 pellet 00B Federal Flight Control.

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3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

You are accountable for every pellet that leaves your muzzle. You want to make sure that all of those pellets hit their target and reduce your chance of any flyer. If those rounds are still in the wad when it hits, and it acts like a slug, I’ll take that all day over a flyer over my targets shoulder that hits an unintended target.

I certainly don't disagree. We want every "boolit" to hit our target. HOWEVER, the thought behind using  buck shot is that it creates a spread so accuracy becomes less challenging, but even the "normal" shells provide little spread in a home.. 

 

I would think for a professional, they simply want the effective range.. they may not be in a house, or approaching one from a distance so that make a lot of sense. Other issues like bystanders certainly play a role... 

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You have a suspect notion of what shotguns are capable of and why a professional would choose it.

No one relies on “Pellet spread” to hit on what is otherwise a marginal shot. You need to aim and control the trigger just like any other firearm if you want to get good hits.

As far as terminal ballistics, you want as little spread as possible. You want the pellets to hit as close to each other as you can get (aside from bird hunting). It’s a happy coincidence that tighter groups up close translate to tighter groups at distance.  

I don’t care what round you are using - at typical interior house distances, you will get one large ragged hole. Where the flight control and Hornady offering excel is the lower potential for a flyer in the group - especially if use of 8 pellet instead of 9 pellet loads.

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9 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I certainly don't disagree. We want every "boolit" to hit our target. HOWEVER, the thought behind using  buck shot is that it creates a spread so accuracy becomes less challenging, but even the "normal" shells provide little spread in a home.. 

 

I would think for a professional, they simply want the effective range.. they may not be in a house, or approaching one from a distance so that make a lot of sense. Other issues like bystanders certainly play a role... 

to paint the most unlikely but terrifying situation.. 

a lunatic on meth breaks in.. and has a loved one by the hair and is bashing her face in screaming about how he is going to kill her... do you want this to be the moment you realized that having the most accurate weapon possible was in your best interest.. and maybe a shotgun with a potential stray pellet is less than ideal.. 

I would rather take that shot with a carbine than a shotgun OR a pistol for that matter.. I subscribe to the mindset of preparing for the worst.. 

6 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

I don’t care what round you are using - at typical interior house distances, you will get one large ragged hole. 

that is EXACTLY what we saw with almost all the ammo we used at the distance we shot.. one real big hole.. 

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15 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Personally, I stick to the 12g 8 pellet 00B Federal Flight Control.

The 8 pellet is symmetrically superior to 9 pellet as the 9th pellet sits off to one side of the cup and usually spreads away from the main pattern the quickest.

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Agreed Vlad and Agreed Ray.

Just for shits and giggles though -

Feb 2018: Hostage Rescue with a shotgun:

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/video-san-diego-cop-delivers-shotgun-blast-to-face-rescues-hostage-P0Bncwcxx0GXTVfNsdA0ow

Click the link and watch the video.

Cop closes the distance and takes the HR shot with a shotgun. He made the situation work for the tools he had by maneuvering to a more favorable position of advantage. good knowledge of the capabilities of both his tools and himself.
Quick thinking and ballsy.

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21 minutes ago, vladtepes said:

to paint the most unlikely but terrifying situation.. 

a lunatic on meth breaks in.. and has a loved one by the hair and is bashing her face in screaming about how he is going to kill her... do you want this to be the moment you realized that having the most accurate weapon possible was in your best interest.. and maybe a shotgun with a potential stray pellet is less than ideal.. 

I would rather take that shot with a carbine than a shotgun OR a pistol for that matter.. I subscribe to the mindset of preparing for the worst.. 

that is EXACTLY what we saw with almost all the ammo we used at the distance we shot.. one real big hole.. 

My HD gun is an AR15, worst case a pistol because accuracy is always my number one factor.

Shotgun has always been there just to round out the collection lol

Shot gun is a nice thought, buts its got a lot wildcards in its application 

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8 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Agreed Vlad and Agreed Ray.

Just for shits and giggles though -

Feb 2018: Hostage Rescue with a shotgun:

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/video-san-diego-cop-delivers-shotgun-blast-to-face-rescues-hostage-P0Bncwcxx0GXTVfNsdA0ow

Click the link and watch the video.

Cop closes the distance and takes the HR shot with a shotgun. He made the situation work for the tools he had by maneuvering to a more favorable position of advantage. good knowledge of the capabilities of both his tools and himself.
Quick thinking and ballsy.

yeah at that distance that thing was a solid chunk of lead.. 

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51 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

You have a suspect notion of what shotguns are capable of and why a professional would choose it.

No one relies on “Pellet spread” to hit on what is otherwise a marginal shot. You need to aim and control the trigger just like any other firearm if you want to get good hits.

As far as terminal ballistics, you want as little spread as possible. You want the pellets to hit as close to each other as you can get (aside from bird hunting). It’s a happy coincidence that tighter groups up close translate to tighter groups at distance.  

I don’t care what round you are using - at typical interior house distances, you will get one large ragged hole. Where the flight control and Hornady offering excel is the lower potential for a flyer in the group - especially if use of 8 pellet instead of 9 pellet loads.

I think a lot people buy shotguns thinking the spread will make up for accuracy. 

As a duck hunter myself, I've spent more time and money than I'd like to admit getting just the right pattern at 30 yards.

 

I never fully understood the application of shotguns for HD, I get that buck shot has some serious knock down power without over penetraring but I feel like a lot of modern day pistol and rifle rounds offer the same. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Agreed Vlad and Agreed Ray.

Just for shits and giggles though -

Feb 2018: Hostage Rescue with a shotgun:

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/video-san-diego-cop-delivers-shotgun-blast-to-face-rescues-hostage-P0Bncwcxx0GXTVfNsdA0ow

Click the link and watch the video.

Cop closes the distance and takes the HR shot with a shotgun. He made the situation work for the tools he had by maneuvering to a more favorable position of advantage. good knowledge of the capabilities of both his tools and himself.
Quick thinking and ballsy.

Donut Operator did a video on this with badge cams too.  12 gauge is the KING of one shot stops inside 25 yards.

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1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Donut Operator did a video on this with badge cams too. 

Body cam footage is at the end.

1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Headshots are the KING of one shot stops inside 25 yards.

FIFY....

41 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Oh Christ! Post the video @Ray Ray

weve been over this sooo many times, Christmas I wanna shine a wml on it.

ad naseum... jus sayen 

Huh?

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4 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

I think a lot people buy shotguns thinking the spread will make up for accuracy. 

I never fully understood the application of shotguns for HD, I get that buck shot has some serious knock down power without over penetraring but I feel like a lot of modern day pistol and rifle rounds offer the same.

@JackDaWack:

I agree that with the advances made in both handgun and rifle ammunition over the past 15 years, that they both provide proven stopping power for a home/self-defense scenario.  I currently have Hornady 9mm+P Luger 135 gr. FlexLock Critical Duty ammo for my HD 9mm semi-automatic handguns, having previously had them loaded with Speer 9mm Luger 124+P Gold Dot Hollow Points.  Both are well tested and proven for that purpose.

For a home defense scenario, hypothetically, I would not anticipate using a shotgun to stop a threat that is farther away than 15 yards.  That is another reason why for HD shotgun ammo, it makes sense to use what has been tested and is considered by experts to be the best that is available.  From my research and it sounds for those on this forum more knowledgeable than me about this topic, two of the best are Federal Law Enforcement (LE133), 2 ¾” 12 GA, 00 Buckshot and Hornady Critical Defense, 2 ¾” 12GA 00 Buckshot.  The Federal LE is low-recoil with a muzzle velocity of 1145 fps vs. the Hornady Critical Defense that has a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps.  Therefore, whatever less penetration the Federal has compared to the Hornady, it makes up for with less recoil, which can be an important distinction.

I do not buy into the argument that one uses or prefers to use a shotgun for HD because you do not have to aim it as carefully as with a rifle.  One has to aim any firearm, whether a handgun, rifle or shotgun to put your shot into an approx. 12” x 18” center of mass target which presumably is a threatening human. The benefit of the shotgun loaded with this type of shot shells is that each time you pull the trigger and hit your target; you're putting 8 holes into it.  That is essentially eight .32 caliber pellets going through the vitals per trigger pull, which is arguably superior to just about anything else out there, no matter if those pellets land within millimeters or inches of each other. As such, a full load (5 + 1 in the chamber in my 12 GA semi-automatic tactical shotgun), of 00 buckshot could conceptually, put a total of 40 - .32 caliber pellets into the vitals of the intruder/attacker, assuming that one takes the time and care to properly aim.

It sounds like many of us do not just depend on having one or one type of firearm for our home defense.  I take comfort in knowing that I will have the redundancy and variety of firearms at my disposal to counter most conceivable threats.  I also am looking forward to practicing with this shotgun outside this summer, using my recently acquired Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buckshot and seeing for myself what the resulting patterning is at 7, 10 and 15 yards on paper targets, as well as getting a good feel for what the recoil will be like.

AVB-AMG

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39 minutes ago, AVB-AMG said:

@JackDaWack:

I agree that with the advances made in both handgun and rifle ammunition over the past 15 years, that they both provide proven stopping power for a home/self-defense scenario.  I currently have Hornady 9mm+P Luger 135 gr. FlexLock Critical Duty ammo for my HD 9mm semi-automatic handguns, having previously had them loaded with Speer 9mm Luger 124+P Gold Dot Hollow Points.  Both are well tested and proven for that purpose.

For a home defense scenario, hypothetically, I would not anticipate using a shotgun to stop a threat that is farther away than 15 yards.  That is another reason why for HD shotgun ammo, it makes sense to use what has been tested and is considered by experts to be the best that is available.  From my research and it sounds for those on this forum more knowledgeable than me about this topic, two of the best are Federal Law Enforcement (LE133), 2 ¾” 12 GA, 00 Buckshot and Hornady Critical Defense, 2 ¾” 12GA 00 Buckshot.  The Federal LE is low-recoil with a muzzle velocity of 1145 fps vs. the Hornady Critical Defense that has a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps.  Therefore, whatever less penetration the Federal has compared to the Hornady, it makes up for with less recoil, which can be an important distinction.

I do not buy into the argument that one uses or prefers to use a shotgun for HD because you do not have to aim it as carefully as with a rifle.  One has to aim any firearm, whether a handgun, rifle or shotgun to put your shot into an approx. 12” x 18” center of mass target which presumably is a threatening human. The benefit of the shotgun loaded with this type of shot shells is that each time you pull the trigger and hit your target; you're putting 8 holes into it.  That is essentially eight .32 caliber pellets going through the vitals per trigger pull, which is arguably superior to just about anything else out there, no matter if those pellets land within millimeters or inches of each other. As such, a full load (5 + 1 in the chamber in my 12 GA semi-automatic tactical shotgun), of 00 buckshot could conceptually, put a total of 40 - .32 caliber pellets into the vitals of the intruder/attacker, assuming that one takes the time and care to properly aim.

It sounds like many of us do not just depend on having one or one type of firearm for our home defense.  I take comfort in knowing that I will have the redundancy and variety of firearms at my disposal to counter most conceivable threats.  I also am looking forward to practicing with this shotgun outside this summer, using my recently acquired Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buckshot and seeing for myself what the resulting patterning is at 7, 10 and 15 yards on paper targets, as well as getting a good feel for what the recoil will be like.

AVB-AMG

Can I shoot it?

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Wait, you guys are telling me my home defense loads shouldn't be 18 pellet 12ga 3 1/2" magnums and 1oz slugs??  Fine, I'll go back to #9 birdshot.

 

So, serious question...  My understanding is that the higher velocities/lower mass from a .223 help prevent overpenetration through lots of layers of construction materials, vs say a 9mm JHP or 00 buck pellet.  Would something like a poly tipped 45-50 grain .223 be preferable to a 55/62 grain soft point/hollow point/HD round, assuming a 16" AR?  Or is a properly designed HD .223 round of lower velocity still superior because of bullet design?

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9 minutes ago, Malice4you said:

Wait, you guys are telling me my home defense loads shouldn't be 18 pellet 12ga 3 1/2" magnums and 1oz slugs??  Fine, I'll go back to #9 birdshot.

 

So, serious question...  My understanding is that the higher velocities/lower mass from a .223 help prevent overpenetration through lots of layers of construction materials, vs say a 9mm JHP or 00 buck pellet.  Would something like a poly tipped 45-50 grain .223 be preferable to a 55/62 grain soft point/hollow point/HD round, assuming a 16" AR?  Or is a properly designed HD .223 round of lower velocity still superior because of bullet design?

The upshot is "yes" ... the .223 round is "safer" than the larger/slower/heavier rounds, as it tends to 'set-up' on whatever it first encounters, and dumps the bulk of its energy into that first impact.  Its kind of counter-intuitive; I thought a buckshot round (for example) with its inferior ballistic qualities wouldn't penetrate like a .223 round, but testing proves otherwise.

The 'best' use of birdshot is to be able to tell the judge that you reached for your trusty "bird gun" when surprised by the intruder intending you harm, and not having to explain that you defended your life with that evil, sinister black "assault" rifle (whatever that is...).

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8 hours ago, Malice4you said:

Wait, you guys are telling me my home defense loads shouldn't be 18 pellet 12ga 3 1/2" magnums and 1oz slugs??  Fine, I'll go back to #9 birdshot.

 

So, serious question...  My understanding is that the higher velocities/lower mass from a .223 help prevent overpenetration through lots of layers of construction materials, vs say a 9mm JHP or 00 buck pellet.  Would something like a poly tipped 45-50 grain .223 be preferable to a 55/62 grain soft point/hollow point/HD round, assuming a 16" AR?  Or is a properly designed HD .223 round of lower velocity still superior because of bullet design?

to be completely clear.. virtually every viable HD round can penetrate a wall and kill what's on the other side.. the point on a low mass round is just the hopes of reduced depth of penetration.. if you miss and hit sheetrock with almost anything.. its going through.. 

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Also to be clear, my go-to is an AR with 55gr sp currently. That said, I also have a 12ga loaded with 00 buck which is also accessable.

I would hope no one but hollywood writers thinks a layer of sheetrock is bulletproof, same as flimsy wooden tables, sofas, or the average car door.

The question of the lighter than normal .223 rounds was serious - are 45-50 grain rounds still a viable round for defense against a human threat?  Because of their higher velocity and light weight, I would expect them to go through *fewer* layers of sheetrock/building layers in a miss (but also less penetration anywhere), but even a "lowly" .22LR blows through 2x3s like nothing.  Is the 45 or 50gr .223 simply too light a round to reliably stop a human threat  when compared to a traditional 55+gr HD round?

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5 hours ago, Malice4you said:

Also to be clear, my go-to is an AR with 55gr sp currently. That said, I also have a 12ga loaded with 00 buck which is also accessable.

I would hope no one but hollywood writers thinks a layer of sheetrock is bulletproof, same as flimsy wooden tables, sofas, or the average car door.

The question of the lighter than normal .223 rounds was serious - are 45-50 grain rounds still a viable round for defense against a human threat?  Because of their higher velocity and light weight, I would expect them to go through *fewer* layers of sheetrock/building layers in a miss (but also less penetration anywhere), but even a "lowly" .22LR blows through 2x3s like nothing.  Is the 45 or 50gr .223 simply too light a round to reliably stop a human threat  when compared to a traditional 55+gr HD round

 You need penetration and cavitation both temporary and permanent.. I don't see a reason to think that SP would fail to produce that.. 

with that said.. I suspect it would fill through walls at just about the same level as FMJ.. or at least I should say not substantially different.. 

 

You 

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On 4/10/2020 at 9:34 AM, oldguysrule649 said:

MidwayUSA has several brands(Federal, Aquila) of 556 in stock as of 15 minutes ago. 
Just successfully placed an order. Act fast before it is gone. 
 

An update on my order.  I did receive it. Ordered on 4/10, per Midway shipped on 4/17, arrived on 4/24.   Note that is was not until the day before delivery that I saw tracking details. So patience is called for.

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After searching for awhile I was finally able to recently locate and purchase, via mail order, 250 rounds of Federal Premium Law Enforcement (Tactical), 12 GA, 2 3/4”, 00 Buckshot (9 pellets), Item LE132, without paying a ridiculous price-gouging markup. 

This additional quantity of shotgun ammunition will compliment my large supply of Hornady Critical Defense, 2 3/4”, 12 GA 00 Buckshot, that I was able to purchase in several orders from different vendors earlier this year.  Unfortunately, this specific ammo from Hornady has been increasingly mor difficult to locate and acquire since that time and has been and is still on back order from most retailers nationally.

I believe it is important to have a plentiful supply of ammo to regularly practice with, that is the same ammo you choose to depend on if, God-forbid, the self/home defense scenario ever presents itself.  These are the only two factory HD shotgun shells that I plan to use in my Benelli M2 semi-automatic 12 GA shotgun.

I am reassured by the expressed opinions and experience of those here on NJGF, ( I.e. @High Exposure and @Ray Ray), who are more familiar than I am with these two shotgun shells for use for home defense.  I am also confident in the design characteristics and reputation of consistent quality control of factory manufacture of both of these shotgun shells, and that both will effectively serve their intended purpose.

AVB- AMG

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8 minutes ago, AVB-AMG said:

After searching for awhile I was finally able to recently locate and purchase, via mail order, 250 rounds of Federal Premium Law Enforcement (Tactical), 12 GA, 2 3/4”, 00 Buckshot (9 pellets), Item LE132, without paying a ridiculous price-gouging markup. 

This additional quantity of shotgun ammunition will compliment my large supply of Hornady Critical Defense, 2 3/4”, 12 GA 00 Buckshot, that I was able to purchase in several orders from different vendors earlier this year.  Unfortunately, this specific ammo from Hornady has been increasingly mor difficult to locate and acquire since that time and has been and is still on back order from most retailers nationally.

I believe it is important to have a plentiful supply of ammo to regularly practice with, that is the same ammo you choose to depend on if, God-forbid, the self/home defense scenario ever presents itself.  These are the only two factory HD shotgun shells that I plan to use in my Benelli M2 semi-automatic 12 GA shotgun.

I am reassured by the expressed opinions and experience of those here on NJGF, ( I.e. @High Exposure and @Ray Ray), who are more familiar than I am with these two shotgun shells for use for home defense.  I am also confident in the design characteristics and reputation of consistent quality control of factory manufacture of both of these shotgun shells, and that both will effectively serve their intended purpose.

AVB- AMG

Not a suggestion but more of a question. Isn't Hornady Critical Defense, 2 3/4”, 12 GA 00 too powerful for home defense? Indoors 8 pellets at 1600fps will go thru target and probably multiple walls. I've shot this ammo and it kicks pretty hard. 

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