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Hey guys, I have a question for you. I’ve asked this on Reddit but I’d like a 2nd opinion. 

 

I was rejected an FID here when I was 18. I had no prior arrests or detainments and zero psych history. Not even a speeding ticket. Yet I was denied and the reason given was due to my background check(?). I then filed for an appeal. This request was ignored and they never got back to me. This was two years ago. Now I have a residence down in Florida with my father and the deed has both our names on it. If I understand correctly, I do not need an FID here if I legally purchase one in florida without an FID and bring it back to my NJ residence. Since I only need an FID to purchase here as a jersey resident, I would purchase in Florida as a Floridian resident under ATF law, no? And then legally transport it and keep the firearm here. I’ve read about others doing this but it seems to good to be true. 

 

Can anyone settle he legality of this?

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I'm not a lawyer. But if you legally purchase a firearm in FL you can bring it to a second residence you own or rent here in NJ.

If you don't own or rent where you're staying in NJ, it's not your residence and you can't legally keep the firearm there.

If you do transport it to NJ be sure to adhere to the transportation laws.

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9 minutes ago, Nogunverysad said:

Hey guys, I have a question for you. I’ve asked this on Reddit but I’d like a 2nd opinion. 

 

I was rejected an FID here when I was 18. I had no prior arrests or detainments and zero psych history. Not even a speeding ticket. Yet I was denied and the reason given was due to my background check(?). I then filed for an appeal. This request was ignored and they never got back to me. This was two years ago. Now I have a residence down in Florida with my father and the deed has both our names on it. If I understand correctly, I do not need an FID here if I legally purchase one in florida without an FID and bring it back to my NJ residence. Since I only need an FID to purchase here as a jersey resident, I would purchase in Florida as a Floridian resident under ATF law, no? And then legally transport it and keep the firearm here. I’ve read about others doing this but it seems to good to be true. 

 

Can anyone settle he legality of this?

If you are a resident of Florida, you will need a Florida ID of some sort to purchase a firearm from a gun store.  I believe person to person transfers do not require an FFL in Florida.

That said, if you live in NJ, have a NJ license, pay NJ state income taxes, you are not a resident of Florida.

Just because you are on a deed in Florida, does not make you a Florida resident.  I own a property in Florida and until I am no longer working in NJ, I can't become a Florida resident.

All that said, guns legally purchased in a different jurisdiction that do not violate any NJ gun laws, like 10 round limits, the assault weapons bans, etc. can be legally brought to YOUR residence in NJ.   You can take them to the range, you can hunt, take them to a gun shop as long as you follow NJ state transportation laws.

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Malsua said:

If you are a resident of Florida, you will need a Florida ID of some sort to purchase a firearm from a gun store.  I believe person to person transfers do not require an FFL in Florida.

That said, if you live in NJ, have a NJ license, pay NJ state income taxes, you are not a resident of Florida.

Just because you are on a deed in Florida, does not make you a Florida resident.  I own a property in Florida and until I am no longer working in NJ, I can't become a Florida resident.

All that said, guns legally purchased in a different jurisdiction that do not violate any NJ gun laws, like 10 round limits, the assault weapons bans, etc. can be legally brought to YOUR residence in NJ.   You can take them to the range, you can hunt, take them to a gun shop as long as you follow NJ state transportation laws.

 

 

 

Yes. My bad. I am not a Florida resident. I meant I would be treated like one under their laws and wouldn’t need to present an FID. You’re correct. 

 

To clarify — Since I I was denied an FID, for what reason, i don’t know, but still acquired a firearm legally in Florida, I could take it back to my NJ primary residence and keep it here legally. 

 

Is that correct in your opinion? I plan to call Nappen and the NJSP in the coming week to further clarify. Figured I would run it by you fellas first to not seem like a total clown when asking. 

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2 minutes ago, Nogunverysad said:

Yes. My bad. I am not a Florida resident. I meant I would be treated like one under their laws and wouldn’t need to present an FID. You’re correct. 

 

To clarify — Since I I was denied an FID, for what reason, i don’t know, but still acquired a firearm legally in Florida, I could take it back to my NJ primary residence and keep it here legally. 

 

Is that correct in your opinion? I plan to call Nappen and the NJSP in the coming week to further clarify. Figured I would run it by you fellas first to not seem like a total clown when asking. 

I brought quite a few guns with me when I moved to NJ in 1996. They were all legal. 

If you get a Florida ID and plan to be a resident in Florida, Florida considers you a resident.    If you live in NJ, NJ owns you and will hound you to the end of the Earth on taxes.

So the bottom line is, if you _LEGALLY_ acquire a firearm in a different jurisdiction, such as Florida, you may bring that firearm to your residence in NJ.  

Here's the rub.  If you have a firearm as a resident of NJ and no history of being anything other than a resident of NJ, you definitely need to be able prove how you acquired the firearm.   I have years of Tax returns proving I was a resident of Ohio.  I can't show up with a Gen 5 glock and they don't have any record that I used a permit on it but claim I bought it in Ohio 25 years ago.  The math doesn't work. But all the guns I acquired in the 80s and early 90s are A-ok.

If I were you as a younger person, I would move to Florida and make your life there.   You'll be much better off in the long run.  You get a bit older, you buy a house and NJ will bleed you for the next 40 years.

 

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You say in your last post that you are not a not a resident of Fl. If that is true and you acquired firearms in Fl that you want to bring to N.J., then you acquired them illegally in Fl and cannot bring them into NJ. You then say you would be treated like a resident of Fl in Fl. You might be, but it would be because you lied under oath if you acquired a firearm in Fl either from a FFL or in a private sale under FL law since you admit you are not a Fl resident. Just because you are are a  joint tenant on a deed on property located in Fl. does not make you a Fl resident unless you also reside in Fl. If you reside at a residence in Fl and also reside at a residence in NJ, you might be a dual resident of both states, in which case if you are not under any disabilities in Fl regarding firearm acquisition, you can legally acquire a firearm in Fl and bring it back to N.J. What State is your DL in?. If it is in Fl  and you are also on a deed that you probably are a Fl resident and possibly may be resident of NJ also. If your Dl is in NJ or another State, a Fl FFL will only transfer to you if the FFL is satisfied you have adequate secondary proof of Fl residence. Yes, the next poster is correct that you can have multiple residence and only one domicile, however if you rely on dual residence for firearm acquisition in Fl you still need to be a bona fide resident of Fl at the time you acquired in the State of Fl.

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You both are conflating domicile and residence. You can only have one state of domicile, but you can have many states of residence.

My domicile is NJ. My states of residence are NJ and PA. I have homes and buy firearms in both. And transport freely between them.

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1 hour ago, 45Doll said:

You both are conflating domicile and residence. You can only have one state of domicile, but you can have many states of residence.

My domicile is NJ. My states of residence are NJ and PA. I have homes and buy firearms in both. And transport freely between them.

Florida has some specific requirements as to residence.  Believe me, I tried.  They require NOW that you relinquish all ID from other states.  It used to be you could get a FL state identification card and have a NJ driver license.  This is no longer the case.  This is all part of the "Real ID" requirements from the Feds.

 

 

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So when you buy a firearm in FL and fill out the 4473 Florida law demands that you use a FL driver's license for identification?

Also, does FL make you fill out any additional forms like our P2P for handguns?

8 minutes ago, Malsua said:

Florida has some specific requirements as to residence.  Believe me, I tried.  They require NOW that you relinquish all ID from other states.  It used to be you could get a FL state identification card and have a NJ driver license.  This is no longer the case.  This is all part of the "Real ID" requirements from the Feds.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Malsua said:

Florida has some specific requirements as to residence.  Believe me, I tried.  They require NOW that you relinquish all ID from other states.  It used to be you could get a FL state identification card and have a NJ driver license.  This is no longer the case.  This is all part of the "Real ID" requirements from the Feds.

I think this is generally how it works now, you can only have 1 "Real ID" from 1 state, and that state becomes your "domicile" as @45Doll says.  So to the OP, what DL do you have?  That determines what laws you must follow to purchase a firearm, even when purchased out of state.  If you have  NJ DL and wish to purchase in FL, then the FL dealer must also follow NJ law (in addition to FL law) in order to sell to you. IANAL but that's my understanding.  

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https://www.cabelas.com/assets/product_files/pdf/federal_state_firearms_regs_online.pdf

Quote
  • All handguns must be transferred from an FFL dealer to the customer in the state of the customer’s residence.
  • Long guns can be purchased and transferred to a resident of any state in any state provided that the transfer is legal in both the purchaser’s state and the state in which the transfer is taking place.

 

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8 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

So when you buy a firearm in FL and fill out the 4473 Florida law demands that you use a FL driver's license for identification?

Also, does FL make you fill out any additional forms like our P2P for handguns?

 

Florida does not require P2P for handguns.

Florida does require a state or federal picture ID with a your address located in FL to purchase a handgun.

You could purchase a long gun, but as a NJ resident, I'm not quite sure what they'd do now.  Call NJ nics?  No idea, they'd probably just turn you away.  You used to be able to fill out the long gun form.  They'd look at you funny and toss it in the trash I suspect.

You can purchase person to person in Florida without involving a dealer and it legally cannot violate federal laws.

 

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4 minutes ago, Malsua said:

Florida does not require P2P for handguns.

Florida does require a state or federal picture ID with a your address located in FL to purchase a handgun.

You could purchase a long gun, but as a NJ resident, I'm not quite sure what they'd do now.  Call NJ nics?  No idea, they'd probably just turn you away.  You used to be able to fill out the long gun form.  They'd look at you funny and toss it in the trash I suspect.

You can purchase person to person in Florida without involving a dealer and it legally cannot violate federal laws.

 

I was on to that. I have someone who is willing to do so as long as it’s legal for me to taken ownership. 

 

I guess Nappen will have to tell me and I’ll forward what he says to you guys. 

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1 minute ago, Nogunverysad said:

I was on to that. I have someone who is willing to do so as long as it’s legal for me to taken ownership. 

 

I guess Nappen will have to tell me and I’ll forward what he says to you guys. 

I can tell you what Nappen will say.

"Don't do it".

The reason?  He always goes that way for everything.  If there is a 100% safe option, that's what he will chose.

He will probably tell you that he can get you your NJ Firearms Purchase ID and he's probably right.    2 years later and 10 grand lighter, it'll probably be in your pocket.

 

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2 hours ago, Nogunverysad said:

Yes. My bad. I am not a Florida resident. I meant I would be treated like one under their laws and wouldn’t need to present an FID. You’re correct. 

 

To clarify — Since I I was denied an FID, for what reason, i don’t know, but still acquired a firearm legally in Florida, I could take it back to my NJ primary residence and keep it here legally. 

 

Is that correct in your opinion? I plan to call Nappen and the NJSP in the coming week to further clarify. Figured I would run it by you fellas first to not seem like a total clown when asking. 

You're a young guy with a long life in front of you, so I would strongly recommend that you NOT bring any firearms into NJ until you sort out the issue with your FID.

You may have the letter of the law on your side, but when firearms are concerned that doesn't always help in NJ.

If something goes sideways now you'll have a LONG life ahead of you trying to skirt the law and potentially lose your gun rights permanently in NJ.

 

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8 minutes ago, Malsua said:

I can tell you what Nappen will say.

"Don't do it".

The reason?  He always goes that way for everything.  If there is a 100% safe option, that's what he will chose.

He will probably tell you that he can get you your NJ Firearms Purchase ID and he's probably right.    2 years later and 10 grand lighter, it'll probably be in your pocket.

 

You might be right. But for the sake of argument, here is a quote by Nappen in his book New Jersey Gun Law Guide quote — 

Please note that under Federal law, dual residency is recognized for handgun purchase purposes under Title 27, CFR Part 478.11. This Regulation as defined gives the following definition and specific examples of dual residency: 

The State of Residence is the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. ... The following are examples that illustrate this definition: 

...

Example 2 - 'A' maintains a home in State 'X' and a home in State 'Y'. 'A' resides in State 'X' except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State 'Y' for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that 'A' actually resides in State 'X', 'A' is a resident of State 'X', and during the time that 'A' actually resides in State 'Y', 'A' is a resident of State 'Y'. 

...

A person who qualifies under the Federal requirements may purchase handguns in other states while a resident of the other state and lawfully transport them and possess them in New Jersey without needing a NJ FPID or PPP or registration under the Federal law of USC 18 926A and the NJ law exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6.

sorry for the walls of text. I’m about to do it to you again. Here’s some ATF quotes on ID. 

"Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the Brady Act. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of the transferee may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's residence address. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, and may satisfy the identification document requirement by presenting his or her military identification card along with official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is within the State where the licensed premises are located. “

 

Heres some of their secondary forms of ID.. 

 

The following secondary forms of ID are acceptable:

•    ⁠A current lease.
•    ⁠Evidence of currently paid personal property tax or real estate tax.
•    ⁠A current utility or telephone bill.
•    ⁠A current voter registration card.
•    ⁠A current bank check.
•    ⁠A current passport (must include an address).
•    ⁠A current automobile registration.
•    ⁠A current hunting or fishing license

 

so, my father could simply use a quit claim deed and get me off it and make me a lease holder under him and this would satisfy it since the bills are in his name alone. 

 

Seems like considering all this, IMO, I look good. Though I’m a fool so don’t listen to me. 

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ATF Rule 2010-6 states that you can have residences in several states and buy firearms in each if you observe any additional state requirements. (And we're not referring to your one state of domicile.)

If you purchase a firearm legally in another state there is no NJ requirement to have an FID to possess a firearm in your residence or transport it to any other permitted location like a range or FFL, if you observe the transport requirements.

If I were an FL resident I would want to read the relevant statutes or talk to a firearms attorney to make sure I was getting accurate information. Why?

If I asked a hundred PA FFLs if I can buy firearms in PA with a NJ DL a substantial number will say 'No'. And they will mean 'No you can't legally do that', not 'No, you can legally do that but we don't want to do it'. And if I ask a random sheriff's deputy if I can have a resident PA LTCF without a PA DL, a substantial number will say 'No'. I've had more than one say that to me.

I have a resident PA LTCF and I buy and possess firearms in both states according to the federal and state requirements, and I transport them freely between both. Observing of course, in the case of NJ, that firearms I bring here are NJ legal.

Good luck with your exploration.

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We're getting into the weeds here a bit.

You can definitely be a resident of two states and buy in each one.

The issue, now, today, is that someone like me, who owns a property in FL and in NJ cannot get a picture ID in Florida that is acceptable.   There may be some kind of federal ID I can get against my FL residence, but I'm at a loss as to what that is.  I already have a Global Entry ID but like my passport, it does not have an address on it.  Maybe my passport and tax bill?  One covers ID, the other covers address.

The law changed in 2019.  If I had tried earlier in 2019, it's possible I could have obtained a state identification card, but that window is closed.  All those forms of ID listed above require a photo ID at some point. 

 

 

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Without a NJ FID, you could at most keep it in your house and use it at the range, but if you are caught out of the house with it, good luck proving where you were going. Now you've been caught with a firearm and no ID with no proof of where you are going. Felony with mandatory prison time.

Then there's the matter of the denied FID. You really need to find out why you were denied because you might be on a list of people banned from owning as a result of something you are unaware of. Then you'd truly be up shits creek.

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8 minutes ago, Greenday said:

Without a NJ FID, you could at most keep it in your house but if you are caught with a gun in NJ as a resident without a FID, you are committing a 2nd degree felony and looking at mandatory prison. Forget the fact that you were denied a FID and decided to circumvent that anyway which will just lessen how much slack you are given.

Citations please. People move into this state all the time with legal purchased firearms from other states. 

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4 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Citations please. People move into this state all the time with legal purchased firearms from other states. 

Edited already for clarity.

Did the OP not go to their court date for the appeal?

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1 minute ago, Zeke said:

Citations please.

Criminal lawyers.

Feel free to ask Nappen and ask him. He'll say the same thing. The fact that the OP is trying to circumvent NJ law by trying to purchase out of state after having been denied a FID is going to work against him.

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Just now, Zeke said:

Sooo you’re just making stuff up as usual 

Why are you encouraging people to commit felonies or give shitty advice based on no facts that could get them arrested?

And criminal lawyers are basing statements off the law. Where did you study again?

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2 minutes ago, Greenday said:

Why are you encouraging people to commit felonies or give shitty advice based on no facts that could get them arrested?

And criminal lawyers are basing statements off the law. Where did you study again?

Citations please 

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Just now, Zeke said:

Citations please 

Your previous posts denying that my assertion that he would get in trouble if caught with weapons outside the house/range for not having a FID and when it comes up he was denied a FID so he was circumventing NJ law.

This isn't the 1A forum, this isn't the place for your trolling.

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