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Bagarocks

RCBS Lock Out Die Max Min test

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I really like the RCBS Lock Die and have been using them for a while now. So I did a test to see when and where The Die would Lock out on undercharge and overcharge. I don't know if these #'s will work with all powders. 

I did this test on the bench not on the press.

Fer those not familiar, the die has 2 ball bearings in a collar with a shaft down the center with a key way notched in shaft for locking the shaft with the bearings if the pass parameters aren't met.

Resources for Test:

38 Spl Federal Brass

Vhita Vuori 3N37 Powder - Tubular small grain, flows great through Lee auto drum measure. 

RCBS M500 Balance Beam scale

6.2 gn powder charge 

I first ran an empty case through and the Die and it locked, then ran dbl charge 12.4 gn and it locked.

Testing under charge weights:

6.0 pass - 5.8 pass - 5.4 pass - 5.0 catch bearing then release - 4.6 catch bearing then release - 4.2 grab then release 3.8 Locked up Die. 

So a 40% reduction in powder charge locks out the loading process. is 3.8 a squib load?

Testing over charge weights:

7.2 Locked - 6.8 locked - 6.6 locked - 6.4 locked - 6.2 free

I did not try these #'s on the press. The out come could be different than the bench test. If I do try on press I'll post my findings.

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3 hours ago, Bagarocks said:

I really like the RCBS Lock Die and have been using them for a while now. So I did a test to see when and where The Die would Lock out on undercharge and overcharge. I don't know if these #'s will work with all powders. 

I did this test on the bench not on the press.

Fer those not familiar, the die has 2 ball bearings in a collar with a shaft down the center with a key way notched in shaft for locking the shaft with the bearings if the pass parameters aren't met.

Resources for Test:

38 Spl Federal Brass

Vhita Vuori 3N37 Powder - Tubular small grain, flows great through Lee auto drum measure. 

RCBS M500 Balance Beam scale

6.2 gn powder charge 

I first ran an empty case through and the Die and it locked, then ran dbl charge 12.4 gn and it locked.

Testing under charge weights:

6.0 pass - 5.8 pass - 5.4 pass - 5.0 catch bearing then release - 4.6 catch bearing then release - 4.2 grab then release 3.8 Locked up Die. 

So a 40% reduction in powder charge locks out the loading process. is 3.8 a squib load?

Testing over charge weights:

7.2 Locked - 6.8 locked - 6.6 locked - 6.4 locked - 6.2 free

I did not try these #'s on the press. The out come could be different than the bench test. If I do try on press I'll post my findings.

Sounds about right. The lock out die is great tool to prevent a double charge or empty case from getting by... but that's about it... I has figured (non scientifically) it would allow +-50% charge weight passed the station.  

If you do all this testing you can adjust the die to a "middle point" since you have a 2.6gr error in its ability to catch an incorrect powder throw. 

I know I set mine to the first point it will lock out on an over charge... so like yours there is lots of room for error on the low side.. but I'm okay with that.. I can deal with an under charged case, where as overcharged can really make things go boom.

3.8 is not a "squib" persay.. not ideal by any means and severely underpowered.. but I don't see that bullet getting stuck in the barrel.

I would not and don't rely on this method for catching over/under charged cases for "accuracy", but to make sure I dropped powder, and didn't drop it twice. 

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Well I just started testing since I got all this time on my hands:)

I always adjusted mine to tight tolerance on free passage of charge weight. Just past the bump or clik. I never gave it a thought to find middle ground and see what that would produce, hhmmm.  Over charge is the Biggee now isnt it.

I have never had a squib or Kaboom. Dont want neither! I load for accurate, high quality and reliable ammo. Not Speed loading ammo.

  As like you the Die is for powder, no powder and overcharge. how ever if I can get a better handle on how much each swing is that info could be useful.

This afternoon I loaded up my Lee auto drum with Unique. Im amazed at how well this measure with a Titan loading Baffle does load after load at the precise charge weight desired. 

This test was done on the LM Press.

Die Locked out on empty Case

I set Die up with powder charge of 5.3 gns Unique

Overcharge, Die Lock out at 10.6 gns a double charge.

Then I started at Max powder charge of 6.9 gns and it passed the die.

7.4 gns. I got a clik and passed - 7.7 gns. Die Locked out. - 7.6 gns Clicked passed.

So the Die Locked out at 12% over Maximum Charge. Way under a Double charge that will definitely go KABOOM. Is 12% over a KABOOM?

Im gonna keep this goin for now. Next test will be with a 2.3 gn load of Bullseye. 

 

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 Its hard looking in 44 mag's 357's and 38 spls, 32 H& r's. So far this test is going well in my estimation. #1 an empty case will not pass.

I Prime with the Lee bench prime then resize with the Lee APP, I useta use the breech lock for sizing.

My Loadmaster set up, Station #1 flare and powder charge, Station #2 Lockout Die, Station #3 Bullet feed, Station #4 Bullet seat, Station #5 crimp. I have a LED light looking down center hole lighting shell plate. I cant see in any of the cases mentioned unless I stand up with a flash light and look almost straight down at station 3. So this Die has suited me for thousands of rounds, Im very happy with the 4  I have, I just got time on my hands so im doing this.

And its starting to look like a 40% under charge will Lock out. Which doesn't appear to give you a squib. and if the 12 % on the over charge holds I dont believe that is a kaboom worthy load at the moment. I dont wanna load 12% over to find out But I do know a dbl charge is kaboom. And this die picks that up.

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This test as the previous was done on the Press.

The first 3 tests were set up to the Powder charge weight of the load data. #'s 4&5 were not

Bullseye Powder powder charge weight for Load data was 2.7gns

Test #3 Powder charge weight 2.7gns  Set up Die to Pass this charge

empty case Lockout - dbl charge 5.4gns Lock out 

Overcharge: 3.8gns clik Pass - 4.0 gns Lock out

Under charge 40% 1.7 gns Lockout. >> This is pretty much the same as the first 2 tests 

Test #4 -  Under charge, set up die on Empty case to Lockout this charge

Powder charges : 2.7 passed - 3.8 max load Lockout - 1.7 40% (2.7) passed - 1.5 and 1.0 passed Empty lockout

Test #5 - Set up die on 3.8 gns Max load to Lockout this charge

Powder charges: 3.8 gns Lockout - 2.7 gns passed - 1.7 40% (2.7) passed - 1.5 gns passed 1.0 gns passed empty case Locked out

So I guess, it seems their is a multitude of setups to get the conclusions you desire with these lockout dies.

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21 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

I really dont understand the use of these dies.  When exactly would you get that kind of weight difference in the powder charges? 

You can set it to lockout an overcharge.. lots of reason powder can stick in a funnel and drop with the next charge.. 

If your already running max you won't be able to visually see how much extra might be in that case...  if you see the powder volume looks right when you inspect you also know it won't be a squib... win win in my book... place the bullet and crank. 

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2 hours ago, Tunaman said:

I really dont understand the use of these dies.  When exactly would you get that kind of weight difference in the powder charges? 

Tuna all the load charges quoted were weighed by me then sent through the die to see if the die would Lockout the Press from cycling or let the press continue its cycling process.  The RCBS Lockout Die is static on the press and only "measures" the charge you put in the case at the Powder measure. Its only duty is to Let the Progressive Press continue loading or Lock it out to stop it from loading.

Look up Gavintube RCBS lockout die he really has an excellent tube of how it works.

My testing has been to see where it Locks out and where it lets pass charges of different powders and different weights.

The only consistency was the 40% Lock out of The powder charge for the load data. Everything else had some slight deviations but gave me enough info to make qualified decisions based on my testing.

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Are you using the Lee AutoDisc or Autodrum?  I have never seen either one of these powder dispensers drop anything other than close to perfect.  When are you getting this kind of variation in powder drops?  Once you set the powder measure and die to the correct charge it doesnt vary ever by that much. In 20 years of reloading I have never seen a need for that die.  Many might be worried about an over or under charge but is just doesnt happen if you check every case.  It may come in handy though if you dont pay attention or run out of powder.

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Loadmaster Lockout die 

Im sorry your just not understanding the RCBS Lockout die go to this link it will explain everything.

https://ultimatereloader.com/2010/09/19/rcbs-lock-out-die-part-i-theory-of-operation/

Me myself and I made the variations in the powder drops! to put them into the RCBS die to see how those powder drops would affect the RCBS die. There is nothing wrong with any of my Lee Auto drums they work flawlessly with any powders I use flake, stick or whatever.

You said previously you look in the case. Well this Die looks for me mechanically, I was trying to see how variations in powder drops would affect the RCBS's die functions pertaining to my reloading. 

Look at the picture, above the 2 empty cases on the left. you will see a white plastic die adapter hanging down that will fit in the case, its attached to the plunger that goes up into the die. that die adapter will ride on the powder in the case. and function accordingly to the parameters that were set by the operator of the press.

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On 4/25/2020 at 8:24 PM, Tunaman said:

Thats why I dont use them.  To much variation.  Auto disc or auto drum will never be off that far.  Screw the die...look in EVERY case.  There is no other way to be sure.

 

18 hours ago, Tunaman said:

I really dont understand the use of these dies.  When exactly would you get that kind of weight difference in the powder charges? 

These dies are for use on progressive presses. It is in fact relying on the powder drop to either dump it all or dump none of it. It is the suspenders to belt and suspenders. For me, it is something I put in place once I started getting a lot of crimped primer brass in 9mm. It'd hit the priming station, I'd have to deal with it, sometimes I'd overly focus on remediation and wonder if I had re-indexed everything properly, and be both paranoid and delayed dealing with it. 

IMO, unless dealing with REALLY compact powder in a big cartridge, it'll stop double charges, no charge, and for some cartridge/charge combos catch it if you substantively sling powder out of the case in a progressive. 

The other reason to go with one is ergonomic. lock out function aside, it and the hornady powder cop let you replace looking into the case with watching a rod move up and down. Because I find the lock out die does not work very well with .223, I use the powder cop there. It's a pain in the ass, even with a good press light, to see the powder and make a determination on how full it is. And with rifle, you have a long powder column. So if it's less than 50% full, it doesn't move. With my powder selection, there's not enough room to overcharge the case without seriously impeding seating. A double charge will make a huge mess. So it's good enough. 

Prior to using the powder cop, I've gotten a couple of squibs. Since going to it, I've had none, and it has caught a couple. 

Another benefit, at lest for my LnL-AP, is that it catches it earlier than my eyeball. Due to the shape of the press, without it I go size->prime->powder->nothing->seat->crimp. And you can't apply the old mark 1 eyeball prior to where I seat due to the press support. When it does catch something, there is one less case with powder to deal with, and simpler remediation is always better. It's harder to screw up simpler. 

Another benefit beyond that, at least to me, is that the mechanism tamps the powder down. With flake powders, I find that depending on how the flakes fell, stack, and bind, there can be significant variation in the visual appearance of a correct charge. The mechanism of the lockout die tamps it down a bit and makes visual presentation much more uniform. Which makes my visual check more effective. No more tapping the occasional outlier that looks overly full to see if it settles or not. Which speeds things up. 

17 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

You can set it to lockout an overcharge.. lots of reason powder can stick in a funnel and drop with the next charge.. 

If your already running max you won't be able to visually see how much extra might be in that case...  if you see the powder volume looks right when you inspect you also know it won't be a squib... win win in my book... place the bullet and crank. 

I've got over 120k rounds reloaded. I've never had powder stick in a drop tube, much less stick and drop free later. I suspect that is because anything that might do that will meter like crap and self-selects itself out of contention as a usable powder. 

What you can use it to protect against varies greatly with the powder in use. But for me, I always adjust it so that it is just shy of locking out from overcharge with my actual intended load. 

As a note, adjustment should periodically be verified it can drift a bit over time, especially if you adjusted it to the ragged edge of locking on your expected charge. 

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42 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

 

 

I've got over 120k rounds reloaded. I've never had powder stick in a drop tube, much less stick and drop free later. I suspect that is because anything that might do that will meter like crap and self-selects itself out of contention as a usable powder. 

What you can use it to protect against varies greatly with the powder in use. But for me, I always adjust it so that it is just shy of locking out from overcharge with my actual intended load. 

As a note, adjustment should periodically be verified it can drift a bit over time, especially if you adjusted it to the ragged edge of locking on your expected charge. 

 Unfortunately I have dealt with serious electro static issues and had a hard time resolving it, specifically with flake powder. I now run graphite through my drop after cleaning it which has solved a majority of the issue.. 

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13 hours ago, Bagarocks said:

Loadmaster Lockout die 

Im sorry your just not understanding the RCBS Lockout die go to this link it will explain everything.

https://ultimatereloader.com/2010/09/19/rcbs-lock-out-die-part-i-theory-of-operation/

Me myself and I made the variations in the powder drops! to put them into the RCBS die to see how those powder drops would affect the RCBS die. There is nothing wrong with any of my Lee Auto drums they work flawlessly with any powders I use flake, stick or whatever.

You said previously you look in the case. Well this Die looks for me mechanically, I was trying to see how variations in powder drops would affect the RCBS's die functions pertaining to my reloading. 

Look at the picture, above the 2 empty cases on the left. you will see a white plastic die adapter hanging down that will fit in the case, its attached to the plunger that goes up into the die. that die adapter will ride on the powder in the case. and function accordingly to the parameters that were set by the operator of the press.

Wow you got 2 strips of LEDs I only run one along with an insert which goes in the top hole and shines down.

https://inlinefabrication.com/collections/lighting/products/skylight-led-lighting-system-for-the-hornady-lnl-ap

 

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32 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

 Unfortunately I have dealt with serious electro static issues and had a hard time resolving it, specifically with flake powder. I now run graphite through my drop after cleaning it which has solved a majority of the issue.. 

Stop using plastic where there shouldn't be plastic. 

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1 hour ago, carl_g said:

Wow you got 2 strips of LEDs I only run one along with an insert which goes in the top hole and shines down.

https://inlinefabrication.com/collections/lighting/products/skylight-led-lighting-system-for-the-hornady-lnl-ap

I no longer use that setup, that photo is from a few years ago I now go with a single light through the center hole of the Turret.

This Turret happens to be a Mike Reloadings bench Turret with a hole in the center for a small Harbor Freight LED light.

It lights things up pretty good.

I drilled out the center hole on my Lee Turrets and mounted a light like Mikes Turrets.

 

LMRCBSLO1.thumb.jpg.33e70fa01acdb449706d576699a7a996.jpg

 

 

 

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