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Penguin1210

Failed NICS, Approved NJ-FPID and P2P

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Hey all,

I have owned a NJ firearms purchaser ID for over two years and was recently denied my first shotgun purchase after my NICS failed. 

i have never purchased before because I was living in a private residential home which prohibited firearms due to housing several severely autistic individuals. I have however been previously approved for 2 permits to purchase but never used them.

Why would the local PD/NJPD approve me for a firearms purchaser’s ID card and permits to purchase if my NICS would ultimately come back as denied? Wouldn’t they have access to same criminal history and just deny me up front if my history deemed me ineligible??

I ask because my history as a minor contains one rather serious second degree juvenile charge.  This was later expunged and cleared after I completed a 6-months probation period and complied with all other court-ordered requirements. I have never had this past history cause an issue in employment and have had multiple background checks come back clean due to my involvement with autistic individuals  (I do realize they are different types of background checks however)

I recently submitted my denial inquiry to NICS and have not yet heard from either NICS or NJPD on why I was denied during my purchase, but am almost certain this was that issue. 

I didn’t realize when filling out the 4473 that question 11c would have even applied to my history as I do not remember if my possible sentence (over ten years ago) was a possible year in jail or if my expungement covered that since it had been cleared. I was told expungement is permanently removed from all database (naive to think it would still be accessibly to law enforcement groups)

This is serious question because I do not want to reapply and come under suspicion for trying to purchase illegally
 

Please let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions.  I feel embarrassed that this has occurred because I would not have tried to purchase if I had known I actually banned from possessing firearms due to past stupidity as a hormonal teen. I’ve certainly come a long way as an Individual and would hate to learn I really am banned.

Thanks a lot,

-RP
 

 

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two things.. 

1) the first significant issue is you stated "I didn't realize 11c would apply" and then further say "you do not even remember the possible sentence"... for purely future reference.. whenever filling out something like this.. if you encounter something like that.. DON'T GUESS.. because lying on the form... which you MAY have potentially done (by accident) to my understanding compounds the issue.. as technically.. lying on that form can get you in really serious trouble which I THINK could include possible imprisonment.. 

2) it will be fairly difficult for people on this forum to help you because the details are unclear... you should get the denial information like you are already doing... but just being completely honest.. I would personally spend the money to at least talk to a  lawyer that deals in gun law.. and I RARELY advise people to get a lawyer... but if it were me.. I would feel.. concerned.. I am not saying run out and fully pay a lawyer to fight this end to end.. I am saying see if you can pay for the time for at least some type of consultation.. I think your first priority is to assess where you are now.. having been denied.. and having potentially lied on the form.. worry about actually getting the gun later.. just work on getting this out of the way.. 

I wouldn't be "embarrassed" things happen.. you did whatever you did.. and society levied punishment to you for it.. and you satisfied that punishment.. 

good luck with it. 

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Vladtepes, I appreciate the initial response.
Agreed that I’m more concerned about accidentally(!) withholding information that could lead to serious penalty. In the moment, it didn’t cross my mind as I’ve been told in the past that my expungement would cover me from claiming criminal history on all background checks including governmental.

I definitely learned my lesson very quickly from that incident and it changed my life for the better. stuff happens.. 

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1 hour ago, vladtepes said:

2) it will be fairly difficult for people on this forum to help you because the details are unclear... you should get the denial information like you are already doing... but just being completely honest.. I would personally spend the money to at least talk to a  lawyer that deals in gun law.. and I RARELY advise people to get a lawyer... but if it were me.. I would feel.. concerned.. I am not saying run out and fully pay a lawyer to fight this end to end.. I am saying see if you can pay for the time for at least some type of consultation.. I think your first priority is to assess where you are now.. having been denied.. and having potentially lied on the form.. worry about actually getting the gun later.. just work on getting this out of the way.. 
 

If you haven't already, join ANJRPC. They have attorneys on retainer to answer questions such as this for members.

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Hey guys thanks for advice and responses.

Finally found the following information I guess I should have been more keen to spot this while filling our form... Didn’t see these notes when filling out form or maybe didn’t even think twice to check and that’s my fault  

Under the “See More” section of NICS form for 11c:.....

“EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside, or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored, AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception, or who receive relief from disabilities under 18 U.S.C. 925(c), should answer "no" to the applicable question.”

I am certainly Covered by part (1) of exceptions but now unsure about part (2) so will go do my homework and reach out to a friend who’s an attorney.

Thanks 

-RP

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14 hours ago, Penguin1210 said:

Hey guys thanks for advice and responses.

Finally found the following information I guess I should have been more keen to spot this while filling our form... Didn’t see these notes when filling out form or maybe didn’t even think twice to check and that’s my fault  

Under the “See More” section of NICS form for 11c:.....

“EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside, or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored, AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception, or who receive relief from disabilities under 18 U.S.C. 925(c), should answer "no" to the applicable question.”

I am certainly Covered by part (1) of exceptions but now unsure about part (2) so will go do my homework and reach out to a friend who’s an attorney.

Thanks 

-RP

disregard misread.. 

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Unless he has the letter from the courts stating that the record has been expunged(every arrest in every jurisdiction where it happened) it is going to come up every time.  You need to get it fixed because you are supposed to turn the card in if you meet certain qualifications. If you are not allowed to buy guns you cant have the card either.

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I know someone that went through this shit and I won't put it out in public, but this state is beyond fucked-up! He spent a TON of $$$ to be able to purchase guns again, even though he had been buying legally for years! And no, nothing happened between those purchases and his denial. Trenton can go fuck itself!

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Hey all,

So what occurred was that my hometown Department should never have issued me a license in the first place. Seems like the Captain got a call from the State Department and requested I forfeit the card immediately. The Captain was apologetic about it and said he will hold license in his personal vault and once I get an expungement, he will reissue the same card without going through application again. I am now in the process of getting expungement but at the cost of $750, wish I knew upfront though as I would have cleared up years ago. 
 

thanks for all the concern and comments guys 

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Good luck.

It's a bit absurd that you have to go through all those hoops, but it's good that your local PD is willing to work with you a bit.  They could have just shredded it and made you start over.

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18 hours ago, Penguin1210 said:

Hey all,

So what occurred was that my hometown Department should never have issued me a license in the first place. Seems like the Captain got a call from the State Department and requested I forfeit the card immediately. The Captain was apologetic about it and said he will hold license in his personal vault and once I get an expungement, he will reissue the same card without going through application again. I am now in the process of getting expungement but at the cost of $750, wish I knew upfront though as I would have cleared up years ago. 
 

thanks for all the concern and comments guys 


thanks for coming back with the update.. its good to know the follow up in case it applies to anyone else in the future.. good luck with it.. 

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On 9/1/2020 at 4:01 PM, M4BGRINGO said:

I know someone that went through this shit and I won't put it out in public, but this state is beyond fucked-up! He spent a TON of $$$ to be able to purchase guns again, even though he had been buying legally for years! And no, nothing happened between those purchases and his denial. Trenton can go fuck itself!

 

Did he ever have a conviction or expungement on his record or was it completely random?

 

 

 

On 9/1/2020 at 5:08 PM, Penguin1210 said:

Hey all,

So what occurred was that my hometown Department should never have issued me a license in the first place. Seems like the Captain got a call from the State Department and requested I forfeit the card immediately. The Captain was apologetic about it and said he will hold license in his personal vault and once I get an expungement, he will reissue the same card without going through application again. I am now in the process of getting expungement but at the cost of $750, wish I knew upfront though as I would have cleared up years ago. 
 

thanks for all the concern and comments guys 

 

$750 doesnt sound too bad.  I would have imagined it to be much more. 

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1 hour ago, deerpark said:

 

Did he ever have a conviction or expungement on his record or was it completely random? He had something that was in a sealed juvenile record that somehow magically appeared after many NICS checks............

 

1 hour ago, deerpark said:

 

 

 

 

$750 doesnt sound too bad.  I would have imagined it to be much more. 

 

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On 6/4/2020 at 12:49 PM, Penguin1210 said:

Hey all,

I have owned a NJ firearms purchaser ID for over two years and was recently denied my first shotgun purchase after my NICS failed. 

i have never purchased before because I was living in a private residential home which prohibited firearms due to housing several severely autistic individuals. I have however been previously approved for 2 permits to purchase but never used them.

Why would the local PD/NJPD approve me for a firearms purchaser’s ID card and permits to purchase if my NICS would ultimately come back as denied? Wouldn’t they have access to same criminal history and just deny me up front if my history deemed me ineligible??

I ask because my history as a minor contains one rather serious second degree juvenile charge.  This was later expunged and cleared after I completed a 6-months probation period and complied with all other court-ordered requirements. I have never had this past history cause an issue in employment and have had multiple background checks come back clean due to my involvement with autistic individuals  (I do realize they are different types of background checks however)

I recently submitted my denial inquiry to NICS and have not yet heard from either NICS or NJPD on why I was denied during my purchase, but am almost certain this was that issue. 

I didn’t realize when filling out the 4473 that question 11c would have even applied to my history as I do not remember if my possible sentence (over ten years ago) was a possible year in jail or if my expungement covered that since it had been cleared. I was told expungement is permanently removed from all database (naive to think it would still be accessibly to law enforcement groups)

This is serious question because I do not want to reapply and come under suspicion for trying to purchase illegally
 

Please let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions.  I feel embarrassed that this has occurred because I would not have tried to purchase if I had known I actually banned from possessing firearms due to past stupidity as a hormonal teen. I’ve certainly come a long way as an Individual and would hate to learn I really am banned.

Thanks a lot,

-RP
 

 

 

How did you find out the reason for the denial?

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I filled the denial request form and mailed it in.  No word for weeks until I got a call from local PD Chief who explained he just spoke with state police and told me everything including why i failed. The following week I received my formal NICS denial paperwork detailing what they found, etc.    My phone calls were pointless. Kept getting same “ok we will take your info and call you back” 

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Also just to update, the lawyer I hired for expungement filed petition just the other day which is great news.    Unfortunately, after I legally get expunged, it still may take up to SIX MONTHS for NICs to update my records before I’d be eligible to purchase again.
 

So I will have my license back but then how in the world do I verify that NICs will pass me?   If I try to purchase in 4 months but get denied again because background never updated, that certainly doesn’t look good...  is there any way to check a NICs approval without actually purchasing?

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1 hour ago, Penguin1210 said:

I filled the denial request form and mailed it in.  No word for weeks until I got a call from local PD Chief who explained he just spoke with state police and told me everything including why i failed. The following week I received my formal NICS denial paperwork detailing what they found, etc.    My phone calls were pointless. Kept getting same “ok we will take your info and call you back” 

 

Wasnt your FFL able to find out the reason for the denial prior to you receiving your paperwork?

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1 hour ago, Penguin1210 said:

No they were just given denial notice and asked to notify me within 24 hours. I had to go sign paper which said I understand I was denied through NICS and they said they do not get informed as to why 

 

Interesting. 

The reason I ask is because I am dealing with a really strange FFL (see my other thread).

During my conversation with this particular FFL, he said that one of his customers was denied and:

 

"when he called to find out why his customer was denied, he was told that it was due to a warrant in Florida".

 

After speaking to you, I'm not sure whom he would have called.  It seems like the FFL would not have access to this information? 

I'm starting to think that everything out of this guy's mouth is a lie...

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3 hours ago, Penguin1210 said:

Also just to update, the lawyer I hired for expungement filed petition just the other day which is great news.    Unfortunately, after I legally get expunged, it still may take up to SIX MONTHS for NICs to update my records before I’d be eligible to purchase again.
 

So I will have my license back but then how in the world do I verify that NICs will pass me?   If I try to purchase in 4 months but get denied again because background never updated, that certainly doesn’t look good...  is there any way to check a NICs approval without actually purchasing?

 

Six months...  Holy sh*t

How long does the expungement itself take?

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The actual expungement may take a bit still. (Hoping by Dec./Jan.)  There is a 4-8 week waiting period to receive a hearing date which started for me the other day when my lawyer filed the full petition package.   This date is really just a court calendar marker and the hearing may be postponed.    
 

Once hearing occurs and I’m granted expungement, it only legally goes into effect once the Courts registers it which will take another 3-4 weeks after hearing date .  My lawyer will not have any information during that time until official Expungement Order is delivered to their office.    

Then from my understanding, I will be legally expunged, able to retrieve my firearms license.  After rereading lawyers emails, I found that my lawyer will then request NJSP and NICS records yo be updated and that the NJSP will confirm once BOTH systems have been updated.  At least I will know when I can legally go purchase again with a clean NICS check.   Hope this info helps. It’s been interesting to learn about 

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