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70gto

Now Im on this 3 gun kick

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What AR do you guys like or compete 3 gun with ? Or just any run of the mill gas impingement AR would work? I only own a piston AR (LWRC) and would like a gas gun. I also would like to try my hand at 3 gun. Anything that requires serious thought? or Just middle of the road AR with some mods would be fine. I know it sounds like analysis paralysis but I value and would like to hear your opinions, Thanks

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A lot of guns i see run lower receivers with extras like built in mag well flairs etc. The noveske comes to mind, but im sure there are many cheaper options in billet form out there now that are just as good.. Everything is else is part based customization. 

I would think most race guns shares similar characteristics to aid in reload speed, and fast target acquisition. The rest is up to you. 

I really wish we had something in northern NJ for 3 gun.

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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

 

I really wish we had something in northern NJ for 3 gun.

Its easy for me to talk because its free, but seriously is it really that hard or complicated to have something like this in this state

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I try not to criticize because I'm in no position to. I have zero knowledge in the sport, or the skills to initiate something. It seems like a place like Cherry Ridge would be great for events like this, but sadly I feel like they are offering less as years go by.

Its nice that there are offerings in the area, but its hard enough getting to the local range once a month. 

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14 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

@Shepherd9

How is that radial lower working out for you, get it together yet? 

 

Not yet, still waiting on the upper/handguard from Radian.  It was supposed to be a 4 week lead time but was advised covid increased that. Going on 7 weeks now.  Hopefully soon, everything else is pretty much here.

 

 

 

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I would run with whatever you have and get a feel for the matches.

You could get new upper for your rifle if you dont want to run the piston upper.

Mods are a personal matter, choose what works for you.

Arredondo and I think Lancer make a magwell to ease in mag loading. (I have the arredondo and stopped using it)

https://www.arredondoaccessories.com/product/ar-magwell/

https://lancer-systems.com/product/adaptive-magwell/

The rifle I use is a JP-15 with a 18" med weight barrel. At the time it was the "setup" to get. It's a little heavy but not unbearable. Have a 1x6 scope, bad lever, extended mag release, and sling mounts. If I was to do it again, I'd get either a 14.5 or a 16 inch light weight barrel. Really don't need a medium barrel. Ultimately you want your gear to work and be reliable. Last thing you want is going up to the line to shoot with doubts on your gear. The real monster in 3gun is the shotgun. 

Old Bridge used to run matches several times a year, but not in a while.

Quinton in South Jersey have matches going on, and if you are willing to drive there are matches in PA all the time.

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2 minutes ago, ronhonda said:

The real monster in 3gun is the shotgun. 

I am leaning towards the benelli m2 for that. Is there anything in particular, that made you say that? Reliabilty? Practice, reload? ETC?

Jut asking all I know about these matches is all Ive seen via video. I should go see one in person. it does seem challenging and ultimately a good time, If I dont overthink everything . 

 

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I have a M2. It runs all day with whatever i put in it. If you can get one do it. Buy once cry once.

Practice, practice, practice your reloads. If you can load faster and consistently more than others, that is where you will save time.

Shotgun is the hardest skill to master. Loading 2/4 takes practice, a lot of practice. Weak hand or strong hand? Then there is shell caddies with so many choices and options it can be confusing.

If there is a match, go to it. You'll see many different setups and everyone will be more than happy to show and fondle their gear.

I'm not a expert or a top dog, just sharing what I know.

There are others here who shoot more regularly and can chime in.

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The AR is going to be the most friendly platform to "run what you brung".  That being said, there are some commonly agreed upon concepts that are helpful for 3-gun.  

Things that help;

  • 16" plus barrel with a mid to full length gas system.  The longer the gas system, the flatter it is going to shoot.  You can do a full rifle length gas system reliably as "short" as an 18". 
  • Rifle length buffer tube in lieu of carbine length, for the same reasons as above
  • Lower mass reciprocating components (BCG, buffer) coupled with an adjustable gas key or gas block allow you to further flatten the recoil impulse by having less mass thrashing around.  You need to turn the gas down to take advatage of this though, if you just slap light parts in they'll be lighter and simply fly around faster negating your gains.  You need to slow them back down to "normal" speed and then you feel the gains.  You can even lighten your buffer spring during your tuning to get the gas down even further.
  • Light barrel.  You're not shooting bench rest and if you have an 18" tube it's not going to be "too light", I promise.  You can drive the gun notably faster for the close targets and it's not going to hurt you when you're shooting a big target out far. 
  • Aggressive muzzle brake 
  • A long hand guard so you can extend your support hand out.  No reason not to go a full 15".  You want one that's light, durable, and with a flat bottom.  Flat bottom is helpful when you're shooting off a barricade like a VTAC
  • Fancy cerakote.  it takes at least 10 seconds off each stage time guaranteed. 
  • Optic, style depending on your division, will be necessary to be competitive.  

If you're doing to drop coin on a new gun though specific for 3-gun, if you already have a halfway decent AR, I'd get either a nice shotgun or handgun that's set up for the game.  A halfway decent AR is going to be fine but shooting a shotgun or handgun that isn't ideal for the sport is going to hurt you a lot more than an AR that is not ideal for the sport.  I hope that makes sense.  Basically, focus on the handgun and shotgun first if you have an AR that you can make do with.

 

2017_Shooting_Images-7228_zpsqcywig6j.jpg

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31 minutes ago, Tony13 said:

Tipically what are the optics on the AR's? Is just a reddot fine or do you need magnification?

It all depends on what division you are running.

Tactical Division allows red dots

Limited can have a 1x? scope with BUIS

Open any magnified scope and back up red dot sights.

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2 hours ago, Pew Pew Plates said:

The AR is going to be the most friendly platform to "run what you brung".  That being said, there are some commonly agreed upon concepts that are helpful for 3-gun.  

Things that help;

  • 16" plus barrel with a mid to full length gas system.  The longer the gas system, the flatter it is going to shoot.  You can do a full rifle length gas system reliably as "short" as an 18". 
  • Rifle length buffer tube in lieu of carbine length, for the same reasons as above
  • Lower mass reciprocating components (BCG, buffer) coupled with an adjustable gas key or gas block allow you to further flatten the recoil impulse by having less mass thrashing around.  You need to turn the gas down to take advatage of this though, if you just slap light parts in they'll be lighter and simply fly around faster negating your gains.  You need to slow them back down to "normal" speed and then you feel the gains.  You can even lighten your buffer spring during your tuning to get the gas down even further.
  • Light barrel.  You're not shooting bench rest and if you have an 18" tube it's not going to be "too light", I promise.  You can drive the gun notably faster for the close targets and it's not going to hurt you when you're shooting a big target out far. 
  • Aggressive muzzle brake 
  • A long hand guard so you can extend your support hand out.  No reason not to go a full 15".  You want one that's light, durable, and with a flat bottom.  Flat bottom is helpful when you're shooting off a barricade like a VTAC
  • Fancy cerakote.  it takes at least 10 seconds off each stage time guaranteed. 
  • Optic, style depending on your division, will be necessary to be competitive.  

If you're doing to drop coin on a new gun though specific for 3-gun, if you already have a halfway decent AR, I'd get either a nice shotgun or handgun that's set up for the game.  A halfway decent AR is going to be fine but shooting a shotgun or handgun that isn't ideal for the sport is going to hurt you a lot more than an AR that is not ideal for the sport.  I hope that makes sense.  Basically, focus on the handgun and shotgun first if you have an AR that you can make do with.

 

2017_Shooting_Images-7228_zpsqcywig6j.jpg

Solid advice thanks a million. Nive Rig you got there, care to share?

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2 hours ago, 70gto said:

Solid advice thanks a million. Nice Rig you got there, care to share?

Sure, no worries!  I put the build list at the bottom of this post.  It came out to about 6 pounds with empty mag and no optic.  I built it with such a light "foundation" I figured i could actually still shave another half pound or so if I opted for a lighter stock and bolt.  I use a stainless and not titanium bolt because I wanted to maintain reliability although titanium bolts really do run just fine.

@Tony13 About optic, it depends on division.

  • Factory, limited, or "irons", allows a single zero magnification optic.  If you have good eyes it's not an issue.  If you have bad eyes and want to work up to large matches then you could have issues at 400+ yards
    • I use the Vortex spitfire AR for two reasons.  #1, etched reticle so if the battery craps it doesn't matter and you can turn it way down or even just run it off (black) for precision.  Green is nice too sometimes.  The other convenience is the two circles surrounding the center dot are a known size that you can do "poor mans BDC" math with and better judge holdover on further targets.  
  • "practical" or "tac-ops" allows a single optic with unlimited magnification but youll want a variable 1-6x or 1-8x to be competitive because you have to have 1x for close in work.  Using that 1x floor as a requirement the furthest you'll go is a 1-10x (expensive)
  • open allows whatever you want.  That's when you see a red dot for close in work and usually still you'll see a low powered variable optic but the difference is those shooters don't waste motion turning the zoom up or down, they set it where they want it for the long range targets and then use a offset mounted red dot to shoot the close targets.  

Hope this sheds more clarity!

2a.jpg

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5 hours ago, Tony13 said:

Tipically what are the optics on the AR's? Is just a reddot fine or do you need magnification?

Red dots can be good under 200 yards. Once you need to do significant hold over it won't cut it. 

The AR needs to be accurate and not too heavy that you won't over swing on transitions due to inertia. 
 

The real place where money pays significant dividends for rifle is the optic. A good low power variable optic is a game changer.  Vortex razor 1-6, trijicon 1-8 ffp accupower or whatever they recently changed the name to, or the Bushnell 1-8 ffp are all in the sweet spot of quality and price. All a bit over $1k and you'd have to spend a LOT more to get much better. 
 

IMO bang for the buck setup with readily accessible accessories.
 

Decent AR with one of the above scopes a decent barrel and a decent trigger. 
Stoeger m3k
Sig p320 x-5 legion with a trigger that let's you dial out overtravel. 

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3 hours ago, Pew Pew Plates said:

Sure, no worries!  I put the build list at the bottom of this post.  It came out to about 6 pounds with empty mag and no optic.  I built it with such a light "foundation" I figured i could actually still shave another half pound or so if I opted for a lighter stock and bolt.  I use a stainless and not titanium bolt because I wanted to maintain reliability although titanium bolts really do run just fine.

@Tony13 About optic, it depends on division.

  • Factory, limited, or "irons", allows a single zero magnification optic.  If you have good eyes it's not an issue.  If you have bad eyes and want to work up to large matches then you could have issues at 400+ yards
    • I use the Vortex spitfire AR for two reasons.  #1, etched reticle so if the battery craps it doesn't matter and you can turn it way down or even just run it off (black) for precision.  Green is nice too sometimes.  The other convenience is the two circles surrounding the center dot are a known size that you can do "poor mans BDC" math with and better judge holdover on further targets.  
  • "practical" or "tac-ops" allows a single optic with unlimited magnification but youll want a variable 1-6x or 1-8x to be competitive because you have to have 1x for close in work.  Using that 1x floor as a requirement the furthest you'll go is a 1-10x (expensive)
  • open allows whatever you want.  That's when you see a red dot for close in work and usually still you'll see a low powered variable optic but the difference is those shooters don't waste motion turning the zoom up or down, they set it where they want it for the long range targets and then use a offset mounted red dot to shoot the close targets.  

Hope this sheds more clarity!

2a.jpg

The barrel looks like an 18 or is it 16?

You guys knowledge is worth the price of admission thanks again

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15 hours ago, raz-0 said:

Red dots can be good under 200 yards. Once you need to do significant hold over it won't cut it....

I don't agree, I've shot mine in matches out to 600 yards with great success.  If you have bad eyes, sure, but I wouldn't say it won't cut it as a rule.  It is more difficult, but certainly cuts it.

Don't forget you're only competing against other red dots if you're in that division.  Overall score isn't as telling, that's the whole point of different divisions.  That said, I have competed  in two point series that was exclusively zoom optics so I wasn't in a different division.  I still wound up doing really well.  Check this video out, these were targets at 200, 300, 460, and 600 yards.  All these ranges are where you say it won't cut it, but only the 300 yard gave me issues which was probably because i was still catching my breath.  Red dots are awesome with practice.

@70gto it's an 18" with rifle length gas

Note: big mags in video kept out of state 

 

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1 hour ago, 70gto said:

Curious any advantage on the 18 vs the 16 inch competing, or just personal prefernce?

18 inch gets more velocity and also has lower gas pressure at the port which means softer cycling. 

I like a mid length 16 more than a mid length 18 for feel. But it is pretty easy to get a rifle length 18" running. 

I like the 16" form factor better, and an intermediate gas length 16 is even a bit gentler than an 18 rifle length set up. But it is a pita to get running reliably. 

You can also get pre built rifle length 18" uppers.  Intermediate length 16" uppers not so much. 

But cutting the gas impulse combined with a good comp and a reduced mass carrier and buffer help keep your sights on target through the whole recoil cycle. 

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10 hours ago, Pew Pew Plates said:

I don't agree, I've shot mine in matches out to 600 yards with great success.  If you have bad eyes, sure, but I wouldn't say it won't cut it as a rule.  It is more difficult, but certainly cuts it.

Don't forget you're only competing against other red dots if you're in that division.  Overall score isn't as telling, that's the whole point of different divisions.  That said, I have competed  in two point series that was exclusively zoom optics so I wasn't in a different division.  I still wound up doing really well.  Check this video out, these were targets at 200, 300, 460, and 600 yards.  All these ranges are where you say it won't cut it, but only the 300 yard gave me issues which was probably because i was still catching my breath.  Red dots are awesome with practice.

@70gto it's an 18" with rifle length gas

Note: big mags in video kept out of state 

 

I was at that match with you. Also shooting a dot. Most of the red dot people did not fare as well as you. I argue you need exceptional vision as you need a dead on zero at range. Which most people are not capable of with a dot due to his much detail they need to see vs. their visual acuity.

I didn't do so hot on the 600 target because my zero was less than perfect and ended up hitting to the left of it until I timed out. 

Most people with average vision, can get a decent 50 yard zero. Then they can use the dot itself to do holdover and hold under out to 250-300. Even if it is only 250, most targets are suitable for using the target itselF for holdover. And you don't even need access to a 200 yard range to do it. However once holdover for an acceptable poi ceases to be on or abutting the target, you are just guessing on holdover. This is usually not the case with an lpvo. 

So a steel uspa target or a steel a/c target you can likely do out to 400 just by holding high on the target 

So depending on the match yeah your can shoot it with a dot and be able to pull it off if you do your part well.

Regardless, for most people it's a place to buy a massive boost in performance. 

In your visited stage iirc I got the 460 after a lot of tries with a 3moa dot. 

Same location with a 1-8x lpvo i cleared a 200 400 and 450 target in less time than I spent on that 460 with a dot.

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23 hours ago, raz-0 said:

 

Most people with average vision, can get a decent 50 yard zero. Then they can use the dot itself to do holdover and hold under out to 250-300. Even if it is only 250, most targets are suitable for using the target itselF for holdover. And you don't even need access to a 200 yard range to do it. However once holdover for an acceptable poi ceases to be on or abutting the target, you are just guessing on holdover. This is usually not the case with an lpvo. 

Whether you're running a dot or a LPVO, if you have only zeroed it at 50 yards you only have a 50 yard zero. There may be a crossover at approximately 300 yards but until you have verified it you do not have a 300 yard zero.

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46 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Whether you're running a dot or a LPVO, if you have only zeroed it at 50 yards you only have a 50 yard zero. There may be a crossover at approximately 300 yards but until you have verified it you do not have a 300 yard zero.

If you keep it to the right velocity you are zeroed pretty close at 200. I'm not saying it is perfect but it works for most. You can go be pedantic all you want but the point of my post is what you can get away with as good enough to not be totally wasting your time. 

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On 6/26/2020 at 8:14 PM, raz-0 said:

Stoeger m3k

^this.  @70gto if the Benelli is not in your budget, the Stoeger is the way to go. 

I mentioned this in the pistol thread, start with what you already have before you commit to anything customized.

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makes sense, As far as shotguns I have ole reliable remington 870 and benelli m4. I have seen some reasonable benelli m2's for sale lately.

A buddy of mine asked re shotguns and he is on a really strict budget. Between the Stoeger and the mossberg 500, which way would you go for competition for him?

Also besides watching and practicing , would there be any benefit for some lessons for 3 gun?

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There's always some benefit from lessons, but if you have solid fundamental shooting skills you should be good to get started  The key at least for me is don't worry so much about speed at first but focus on safe and steady.  :)

I have the 870 and used it for 3-gun but have seen that semi-auto is the better way to go as I found the pump action slows me down.  The Stoeger is on my "next to purchase" list.  I think the Mossberg 500 is on par with the 870.  If you want a competition semi-auto Mossberg, then that would be the 940 JM Pro.

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Don't forget to consider the Beretta 1301 comp.

Price point is inbetween the benelli & the stoeger at a little over $1k and it's more ready out of the box than the benelli.

The Stoeger isn't junk but it isn't exactly a like substitute for the benelli.  You have a pretty good chance of needing to play with it to get it to work 100%.

The Beretta, unlike both the Benelli & Stoeger, is gas operated.  It cycles faster with a cleaner feeling recoil cycle which makes it run really well.  Reliability is incredible and I shoot mine way better than my Dad's RCA custom Benelli also set up for 3-gun.

Don't even consider the 930/940 if you actually want to shoot 3gun.  Mossberg had the great idea of trying to fix the reputation by sending one to the blue line 3-gun match to be a stage gun and it jammed for every other competitor until Dillen Easely broke it in half.  Whoops...

940.jpg

 

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Don't get the beretta 1301. I don't think I've seen one not have issues over a fairly short period of use. Not so much you aren't going to get through a match, but expect to be needing with it over a busy match season. 

I shot two seasons with my stoeger and it started having issues in the third season. It just needed a new magazine spring. 

The inertia guns won. Don't pay double for gas gun problems. 

I've got a 930 with about $1000 in it trying to make it run right. It gathers dust since I got my stoeger.

My friend is looking at ditching their 1301 for a stoeger.

IMO there's really two sensible choices in terms of a value proposition. Go for best bang for the buck and get the stoeger. Our decide you want the pinnacle of three gun shotguns and just go straight to Roth performance. By the time you are done having someone dick around making a benelli just right, you are most of the way to the price tag on the Roth. 

Pew Pew isnt right about the m3k. Yes the 3000 needed a little tlc on some guns. I know about a dozen people running them box stock. Some people swap out the extractor for a benelli one, but you don't really need to. 

 

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11 hours ago, raz-0 said:

Don't get the beretta 1301....................

........................Pew Pew isnt right about the m3k. 

Let me clarify this;

I make a subjective observation that the M3k isn't the greatest based off my personal experiences and state an opinion that it's not the best choice.  My opinion is wrong.

You make a subjective observation about the 1301 based off of similar experiences, and assert as fact that I am wrong and imply you are right.  

That doesn't really make sense.  

I don't really think my experiences are biased.  I have over 20k rounds through my 1301 (is that a short period of use?) and I had one single fail to feed that when i touched the charging handle it chambered.  These rounds were mostly over a 2.5 year period where I only cleaned it about 10 times.  I also have the gun you recommended, a roth custom benelli.  Do you own both guns to practice with side by side? The Benelli sits in the safe because it sucks compared to my 1301.  Maybe I'm just lucky (and every other 1301 around me is also lucky), maybe I just have strange preference but I shoot the 1301 way better and it never fails.  You're gas gun experience was with the worst semi auto race shotgun in history, it's no wonder you have a bias against them.  

I will agree the Stoeger is a good value, but I still uphold you're rolling the dice on having one that runs like a top.  There's also the Breda b12i option if you want to bridge the gap inbetween the M3K and the M2 and stay in the inertia gun family.  

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