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Rob0115

This is why gun owners are doomed in NJ

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Well amongst other reasons.  We are tied with Mass for last in gun ownership.  
 

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/?ftag=ACQd3cf1ab&vndid=msn-msn#tblciGiBsXOOBnmhx-oOz4-c87T4Skjl_Y3ErfwX5sTv8BQWgDiC6pj4

 

oddly the Gunshine state is 40th and Texas ain’t much better.   Montana is number one with ~67% household gun ownership.  

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It makes sense to be honest as a new gun owner it is not easy getting into gun ownership here. The form sucks as the questions are not clear especially regarding things like mental health. Asking about employment makes you wonder if your job will be contacted and you will be "outed" at work.

And personally references was challenging at best because gun ownership is so stigmatized here that I can name a dozen character references for a job or whatever but I had to look out of state to people whom I knew owned guns for references simply because of those dozen character references most if not all have taken a negative stance on "weapon" ownership.

I mentioned shooting a crossbow once and work got weird for a bit.

Add to that additional steps for hand gun permits and it simply taking forever with minimal feedback on where things are in the process and I'm not shocked to see so few gun owners here. 

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3 hours ago, CF1782 said:

as a new gun owner it is not easy getting into gun ownership here. Asking about employment makes you wonder if your job will be contacted and you will be "outed" at work.

I'm not shocked to see so few gun owners here. 

All by design to discourage gun ownership and working pretty good so far. (Although 130,000 N.J. residents applied for a FID so far this year, more than 2018-19 combined).

The employer contact info alone probably is probably a deal killer for some people.

Having the local PD call up your place of employment doesn't look good, especially these days.

And after jumping through the many hoops concealed carry isn't allowed anyway. 

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6 minutes ago, Bomber said:

The employer contact info alone probably is probably a deal killer for some people.

I'm sure it's a deterrent, and I'm sure that is by design.  

That said, not all towns bother calling the employer.  For the last 20 years in which I lived in two different towns, my employer was never contacted.  I know this because I always list my direct office number as my employer's number, figuring that if called I might be able to confirm my own employment, or worst case I transfer the call to HR.   But they never called.  Not once.

So an applicant might get lucky, depending on where they live.

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18 minutes ago, Bomber said:

All by design to discourage gun ownership and working pretty good so far. (Although 130,000 N.J. residents applied for a FID so far this year, more than 2018-19 combined).

The employer contact info alone probably is probably a deal killer for some people.

Having the local PD call up your place of employment doesn't look good, especially these days.

And after jumping through the many hoops concealed carry isn't allowed anyway. 

My office is in Texas. They laugh at me every time I apply for permits, that I have to ask the state permission to buy a handgun. 
 

I can’t WAIT to move back home. 

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9 minutes ago, 10X said:

I'm sure it's a deterrent, and I'm sure that is by design.  

That said, not all towns bother calling the employer.  For the last 20 years in which I lived in two different towns, my employer was never contacted.  I know this because I always list my direct office number as my employer's number, figuring that if called I might be able to confirm my own employment, or worst case I transfer the call to HR.   But they never called.  Not once.

So an applicant might get lucky, depending on where they live.

I went with the main office number for my building. I figured that they could identify that I work there (ID card is on file) but have never spoken to anyone I know. 

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12 minutes ago, 10X said:

I

That said, not all towns bother calling the employer.  For the last 20 years in which I lived in two different towns, my employer was never contacted.   But they never called.  Not once.

So an applicant might get lucky, depending on where they live.

Yeah, but new FID applicants unfamiliar with the process won't know they may not call.

FYI last time I applied for a PP my employer was contacted. The time before that they didn't t call, so things can change randomly.

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Last time I applied for PP they attempted to contact my employer.  My employer at the time was a huge company that contracted with a service where the caller had to pay a fee to verify employment.

The detective didn't give up at that though - he tried to get me to get him a direct HR contact at the company for him to talk to.  When I said I wasn't obligated to do that, he then demanded a copy of last pay stub to verify employment.

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4 hours ago, Rob0115 said:

You don’t need to disclose employer. 

 

4 hours ago, Tunaman said:

Just put "NA".  not applicable.  I always do.  They say nothing ever.

 

if I left that line blank or put a big" N/A" most likely I'd be getting a call from the local PD asking questions.

And my town is pretty easy with PP applications I think.

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I’ve never read where employment is a requirement to own a gun.  It’s an intimidation move.  
 

I guess I’ve been fortunate.  When I lived in Montville they never even contacted the references and would have paper in one week or less.  
 

When I bought this house in Rumson I decided to change of address my p2p because you can’t even go shooting without one these days, at least it seems.  With all the craziness I wasn’t expecting it to happen quickly but after a few months I called the local PD to see what was up.  They couldn’t have been nicer or more helpful. I made a mistake and rather than reapply the adjusted the info in the SP system and the goods arrived a couple weeks ago.  

I’m not sure I’d purchase anything but the time I’m here I’d like to be able to go to the range thus I went through the process.  I don’t understand why I need an FPID (p for purchase) but it’s a requirement everywhere.  It’s also a huge impediment for new shooters.  Yes I know at ranges it’s a suicide prevention discussion.  However for someone who has guns and no FPID I don’t see how that’s helpful.  

Moreover, many ranges won’t let me on (some clubs won’t allow me to join) because my FPID and D/L don’t match (FL license).  I dealt with that before I left the first time and even explained to several FFL’s that ID and residency are two different things and is even explained on the 4473 for multi-state residents.  I’ve been denied purchase (their store their rules) unnecessarily.   It’s just odd that notion of FPID and marching d/l (not a requirement) carries through to range membership.  Again, NJ firearms community making an already difficult environment unnecessarily worse.  

I keep my FL D/L primarily because their DMV is far and away much easier to deal with. Licenses are for 10 years and for CCW purposes reciprocity for resident vs non-residents has a much larger number of states.  
 

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16 hours ago, Bomber said:

All by design to discourage gun ownership and working pretty good so far. (Although 130,000 N.J. residents applied for a FID so far this year, more than 2018-19 combined).

The employer contact info alone probably is probably a deal killer for some people.

Having the local PD call up your place of employment doesn't look good, especially these days.

And after jumping through the many hoops concealed carry isn't allowed anyway. 

No it's not.

Every black person is self-employed: aspiring rapper.

Every white person is self-employed: aspiring influencer.

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Hmm this could be chicken and egg issue.

We have too few gun owners because ridiculous gun control laws/fees?

We are losing 2A battles because we have too few gun owners?

 

These might've also been contributing factors to low gun ownership:

- Lack of rural areas. Almost everywhere is built up with dense population, thus restrictive local ordinances

- Ridiculous hunting regulations and firearm restrictions. No .22LR for small games and no .308 for deer? common...

- Everything is expensive, from range membership, tax, etc...

- Liberal mindset of not needing a gun, and/or seeing guns as evil as a whole. I hope they've learned their lesson by now.

- Weak Castle Doctrine & use of force. Criminals are protected.

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40 minutes ago, Nam Le said:

These might've also been contributing factors to low gun ownership:

- Lack of rural areas. Almost everywhere is built up with dense population, thus restrictive local ordinances

- Ridiculous hunting regulations and firearm restrictions. No .22LR for small games and no .308 for deer? common...

- Everything is expensive, from range membership, tax, etc...

- Liberal mindset of not needing a gun, and/or seeing guns as evil as a whole. I hope they've learned their lesson by now.

- Weak Castle Doctrine & use of force. Criminals are protected.

Left off a big  one:: Concealed Carry not allowed. 

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2 minutes ago, Bomber said:

Left off a big  one:: Concealed Carry not allowed. 

Personally I don't think no concealed carry is a deterring factor of gun ownership. Carrying is just the second priority and won't cancel out the need to have one in home by itself.

The reason why I put hunting there is that many people will go for bow/arrow instead, thus reducing the chance for them to get their first gun.

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1 hour ago, Nam Le said:

Personally I don't think no concealed carry is a deterring factor of gun ownership. Carrying is just the second priority and won't cancel out the need to have one in home by itself.

 

I think firearm ownership would at least double in N.J. if CCW were ever allowed, especially these days.

Way too many hoops to jump through to purchase in N.J. then have to leave it home.

 

 

 

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Seems like CC would be a huge risk anyway, what with the backlash by prosecutors if you need the defend yourself.I couldn't afford representation if faced with that fight.

On a side note, a bankruptcy lawyer I know says he gets 2k and up to file the papers.  I was thinking if someone had the cash to pay him, they weren't in such bad shape to begin with (medical bills and wild CC balances aside)

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9 minutes ago, AlDente67 said:

Seems like CC would be a huge risk anyway, what with the backlash by prosecutors if you need the defend yourself.I couldn't afford representation if faced with that fight.

On a side note, a bankruptcy lawyer I know says he gets 2k and up to file the papers.  I was thinking if someone had the cash to pay him, they weren't in such bad shape to begin with (medical bills and wild CC balances aside)

Right, so another reason is the ban of legal insurance (what Murphy called "murder insurance").

Not even when CC, I don't even think it's more pleasant when you had to shoot in your home.

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I spoke to a FFL yesterday who I won't quote and they told me rough 4 in 10 sales he's done since he reopened are first time gun owners, some of whom are stone cold libs.  @Bomber pointed out first time applications for FPID is at a high.  I'd really like to hear from the FFL's on this board what they are seeing.  I know they are incredibly busy in this environment but perhaps they know, anecdotally, how many first time buyers they see.

 

The only three I am sure are FFL's are @remixer @JT Custom Guns @PK90.  The dynamic on purchases may be very different in the gun friendly state of AZ but I am curious what is happening there.  The FFL, the one mentioned above was NJ, that I spoke to in FL is seeing a bit more first time buyers but I am in a pretty gun friendly AO down there.

 

If we can gather some of the data perhaps we can analyze it and formulate a strategy on attracting more people.  I know it's been tried before but we are in a pretty unique period in history what with a pandemic and civil unrest.  Just a thought. I mean I can go hide in FL but the we've already been infected so it's only a matter of time before the host becomes necrotic if we don't get active in FL again--side problem.

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18 minutes ago, Rob0115 said:

I spoke to a FFL yesterday who I won't quote and they told me rough 4 in 10 sales he's done since he reopened are first time gun owners, some of whom are stone cold libs.  @Bomber pointed out first time applications for FPID is at a high.  I'd really like to hear from the FFL's on this board what they are seeing.  I know they are incredibly busy in this environment but perhaps they know, anecdotally, how many first time buyers they see.

 

The only three I am sure are FFL's are @remixer @JT Custom Guns @PK90.  The dynamic on purchases may be very different in the gun friendly state of AZ but I am curious what is happening there.  The FFL, the one mentioned above was NJ, that I spoke to in FL is seeing a bit more first time buyers but I am in a pretty gun friendly AO down there.

 

If we can gather some of the data perhaps we can analyze it and formulate a strategy on attracting more people.  I know it's been tried before but we are in a pretty unique period in history what with a pandemic and civil unrest.  Just a thought. I mean I can go hide in FL but the we've already been infected so it's only a matter of time before the host becomes necrotic if we don't get active in FL again--side problem.

Lots of first time gun owners are buying or trying to buy right now.

 

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Could be good & could be bad.

Who knows what's going on in the liberals' mind... like "Gun for me but not for thee" kind of thing.

Maybe they think "ok now I got the gun, let's vote for stronger gun control so the thugs won't have one".

Or they may just not be able to connect gun control with voting at all...

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1 hour ago, AlDente67 said:

Seems like CC would be a huge risk anyway, what with the backlash by prosecutors if you need the defend yourself.I couldn't afford representation if faced with that fight.

 

True.

However, I always think about the car jacking where that guy was shot in head in front of his wife at the Short Hills mall. 

Might have been a far better outcome had he been armed. Classic case in favor of CCW

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1 hour ago, AlDente67 said:

Seems like CC would be a huge risk anyway, what with the backlash by prosecutors if you need the defend yourself.I couldn't afford representation if faced with that fight.

On a side note, a bankruptcy lawyer I know says he gets 2k and up to file the papers.  I was thinking if someone had the cash to pay him, they weren't in such bad shape to begin with (medical bills and wild CC balances aside)

Regarding your side note, there is a standard provision for wage garnishment and prefered creditor status in most if not all bankruptcy lawyer agreements with their clients. That way you have already agreed that off the top the lawyer will get paid and if you balk it just slides out of your pay check.

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15 minutes ago, Bomber said:

True.

However, I always think about the car jacking where that guy was shot in head in front of his wife at the Short Hills mall. 

That one still infuriates me.  Because one of the perps had been picked up for illegal possession of a handgun 9 months earlier.  He was found passed out on a lawn with a loaded handgun in his pocket.  But he was released on bail, and subsequently found not guilty of the charge, because he had passed out due to an overdose of PCP.  And so he walked because he was deemed by the court to have been too drugged up to be aware that he was carrying a loaded handgun.  Which is the most convoluted, f*cked-up application of 'two wrongs somehow make a right' that I've ever encountered.  

And it's why Karif Ford was a free man when he entered the Short Hills Mall parking garage planning to carjack a Range Rover.

Perp in deadly carjacking has walked on previous gun charges because he was too drugged up to know what he was doing

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14 minutes ago, 10X said:

That one still infuriates me.  Because one of the perps had been picked up for illegal possession of a handgun 9 months earlier.  He was found passed out on a lawn with a loaded handgun in his pocket.  But he was released on bail, and subsequently found not guilty of the charge, because he had passed out due to an overdose of PCP.  And so he walked because he was deemed by the court to have been too drugged up to be aware that he was carrying a loaded handgun.  Which is the most convoluted, f*cked-up application of 'two wrongs somehow make a right' that I've ever encountered.  

And it's why Karif Ford was a free man when he entered the Short Hills Mall parking garage planning to carjack a Range Rover.

Perp in deadly carjacking has walked on previous gun charges because he was too drugged up to know what he was doing

Maybe he was on his way to apply to college?  Ya know, gentle giant and shit...

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