Cheflife15 454 Posted October 5, 2020 https://grindhardammo.com/collections/all-ammo/products/9mm-90gr-xtreme-defense Does that quality? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyB 4,289 Posted October 5, 2020 41 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said: https://grindhardammo.com/collections/all-ammo/products/9mm-90gr-xtreme-defense Does that quality? AFAIK you can use whatever you want in your home for defense! No true armor piercing or tracer I think. It's a bit expensive though at almost $2.00 per round...I would not buy it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smith 3 Posted October 5, 2020 1 hour ago, JohnnyB said: AFAIK you can use whatever you want in your home for defense! No true armor piercing or tracer I think. It's a bit expensive though at almost $2.00 per round...I would not buy it! Is it legal for citizen of Republic of NJ to do self defense? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Romeo 11 Posted October 22, 2020 I wouldn't buy it. Is it fancy - yes. Is it better than regular HP (like Federal or Gold Dot) or Hornady FTX - I doubt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUTGERS95 889 Posted October 22, 2020 lead bullets work great 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marlintag 223 Posted October 22, 2020 There is no hard rule on what to use for self-defense! I try to stick to following criteria: 1. A round designed specifically for self defense purposes 2. A round that you have tested personally and has proven to feed reliably and expand reliably. 3. A round that is readily available for immediate purchase, not something that is backordered for months. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 I keep my HD pistol loaded with Hornady Critical Defense. Also have my other guns ready with Critical Defense and Critical Duty. I also have SJHP's for a SHTF scenario. Legal to keep at home and use at the range, but not supposedly legal for self defense. Go Figure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted December 22, 2020 14 hours ago, FDHog said: I also have SJHP's for a SHTF scenario. Legal to keep at home and use at the range, but not supposedly legal for self defense. Go Figure. Can you point to anything that actually says this? NJ's self defense statutes differentiate between lethal force and non-lethal force. They do not make any distinctions within the set of lethal force. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that: (2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)]. Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A2C:39-6f. . . ." N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1). 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted December 22, 2020 The point is that if it is legal to possess in the home (it is), it is legal to use it for defensive purposes in the home. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 I'll stick to my Critical Defense, or better yet, my DP-12. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted December 22, 2020 17 minutes ago, FDHog said: N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that: (2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)]. Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A2C:39-6f. . . ." N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1). That addresses possession. It says nothing at all about use, whether defensively or otherwise. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 With the vagueness of NJ gun laws, I'll stick to the Critical Defense. I don't want to end up the poster boy for illegal use of hollow points. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted December 22, 2020 1 minute ago, FDHog said: With the vagueness of NJ gun laws, I'll stick to the Critical Defense. I don't want to end up the poster boy for illegal use of hollow points. You still haven't said where you got the information that using hollowpoints for self defense was even in doubt. Admittedly, you can't get any more vague than not saying anything at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 My point is, there is no definite answer in black and white that I can find. It only makes reference to using them for hunting. You want to use them, fine. Google hollow points for self defense in NJ and see what you get. After your head stops spinning, let me know. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdF 323 Posted December 22, 2020 https://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-hollowpoint.shtml "Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ." N.J.S.A 26:39-3f." "Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows: A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police; A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State; A person going directly to a target range, and; A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions." I've argued elsewhere that hollow points are not legal for home defense. Others were rather heated on the point that "if you are allowed to posses them, you are allowed to use them." I would differ since 26:39-6f lists for match, range and hunting. I'm not getting into an argument, again . . . This is how it was explained by an intructor and I have plenty of Hornady for my 9mm and .38Spcl. If I have to drag the AR-15 into the mix, all bets are off anyway. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 Thank you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,134 Posted December 22, 2020 You Critical Defense guys do know that Hornady themselves describe that XTP bullet as a better performing hp, right? A prosecutor will have an easy time making his case with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted December 22, 2020 17 minutes ago, EdF said: https://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-hollowpoint.shtml "Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ." N.J.S.A 26:39-3f." "Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows: A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police; A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State; A person going directly to a target range, and; A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions." I've argued elsewhere that hollow points are not legal for home defense. Others were rather heated on the point that "if you are allowed to posses them, you are allowed to use them." I would differ since 26:39-6f lists for match, range and hunting. I'm not getting into an argument, again . . . This is how it was explained by an intructor and I have plenty of Hornady for my 9mm and .38Spcl. If I have to drag the AR-15 into the mix, all bets are off anyway. And again, this talks ONLY about possession. The second part which refers to N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6f extends the exception to the prohibition of possession of hollowpoints beyond your property when taking part in the listed activities. Show me where it says anything about what you can or cannot use for self defense if lethal force is justified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdF 323 Posted December 22, 2020 Just now, Mr.Stu said: And again, this talks ONLY about possession. The second part which refers to N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6f extends the exception to the prohibition of possession of hollowpoints beyond your property when taking part in the listed activities. Show me where it says anything about what you can or cannot use for self defense if lethal force is justified. Actually . . . It talks about more than possession. It discusses uses as well. It attaches conditions to possession. Here's the thing and then I'm out . . . I already said, I'm not getting into an argument. If someone follows the advice that I was given and doesn't use hollow points for self defense, is any damage done? 8 minutes ago, siderman said: You Critical Defense guys do know that Hornady themselves describe that XTP bullet as a better performing hp, right? A prosecutor will have an easy time making his case with that. And . . . Hollow points are merely more efficiently deadly projectiles . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, siderman said: You Critical Defense guys do know that Hornady themselves describe that XTP bullet as a better performing hp, right? A prosecutor will have an easy time making his case with that. XTP bullets are not the same as Critical Defense. XTP's are hollow points, CD are polymer filled. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,134 Posted December 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, FDHog said: XTP bullets are not the same as Critical Defense. XTP's are hollow points, CD are polymer filled. Correct, mixed them up. However, at least one judge has said he considers the filled ones no different than a true hp as they are designed to achieve the same effect. Don't put too much faith in a plug of plastic vs a hostile prosecutor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted December 22, 2020 19 minutes ago, EdF said: Actually . . . It talks about more than possession. It discusses uses as well. It attaches conditions to possession. It attaches conditions to possession when you are not in an exempt location such as your home. You surely do not think you need to be actively doing one of these things while possessing hollowpoints at home? Please! 20 minutes ago, EdF said: Here's the thing and then I'm out . . . I already said, I'm not getting into an argument. If someone follows the advice that I was given and doesn't use hollow points for self defense, is any damage done? And . . . Hollow points are merely more efficiently deadly projectiles . . . Efficiency has little to do with it. Overpenetration is a serious consideration, especially with 9mm ball ammo. Therefore, potentially yes, there is more of a risk of damage done to anybody the bullet hits after it exits the intended target - bear in mind the trajectory will probably change while it is in that target so it's not just anybody directly behind the bad guy. Notwithstanding, we operate under too many illogical and draconian rules in NJ already. We do not need anybody imagining new ones and spreading them around as if they were true. I would still really like to know where this idea originated. It is not in the statutes. It is not in the Admin Code. It is not in the briefing Juries are given in self defense cases. If the only identified source is what some guy who passed the (frankly ridiculously easy) NRA Instructors class once said, it has to be classified as uncorroborated rumor at best. I prefer to do a bit of research rather than believe every word I hear from some guy at the range, or a cop, or the guy behind the counter at the gun store, etc. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 22, 2020 Shotgun. Problem solved. 1 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted December 22, 2020 We are our own worst enemy. 7 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marlintag 223 Posted December 23, 2020 Pizza Bob took the words out of my mouth. This obsession with figuring out ways of restricting ourselves in regards to sudden and violent self defense scenarios seems to be a phenomenon that only affects NJ gun owners. If a self defense encounter would to occur within my home, I will use whatever is LEGAL TO OWN, AVAILABLE, AND SUITABLE FOR THE SITUATION AT HAND. Hollow points are legal to purchase and own PERIOD. Don't fool yourself into thinking that using hornady critrical, inceptor, ruger arx, glaser ammo etc...for self defense of your loved ones will earn brownie points with some NJ prosecutor, IT WONT BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE!!!!!! GET IT. 1 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FDHog 604 Posted December 23, 2020 True. So just use a shotgun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyB 4,289 Posted December 23, 2020 All I can say is that if someone threatens my life or the lives of my family, I will kill them! I will use the most effective ammunition I can get my hands on to accomplish that goal and I don't give two shits what someone sitting in Trenton thinks about my choices! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dilbert1967 145 Posted December 23, 2020 2 hours ago, marlintag said: Pizza Bob took the words out of my mouth. This obsession with figuring out ways of restricting ourselves in regards to sudden and violent self defense scenarios seems to be a phenomenon that only affects NJ gun owners. If a self defense encounter would to occur within my home, I will use whatever is LEGAL TO OWN, AVAILABLE, AND SUITABLE FOR THE SITUATION AT HAND. Hollow points are legal to purchase and own PERIOD. Don't fool yourself into thinking that using hornady critrical, inceptor, ruger arx, glaser ammo etc...for self defense of your loved ones will earn brownie points with some NJ prosecutor, IT WONT BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE!!!!!! GET IT. I never went down that road (hollow points). I've only fired FMJ. Someone gave me a box of .38 +P HPs reloads ten years ago and it is still sitting in my ammo storage box. When all is said and done, a shotgun works. After all, sleepy Joe recommends them. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyB 4,289 Posted December 23, 2020 Use the shotgun! I would NEVER trust reloads that someone gave me to defend myself or my loved ones! I would however, use my own reloads for defense over factory ammo any day! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites