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Legal self defense ammo in the home

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On 12/22/2020 at 10:39 PM, JohnnyB said:

Use the shotgun!  I would NEVER trust reloads that someone gave me to defend myself or my loved ones!    I would however, use my own reloads for defense over factory ammo any day!

I have always understood that custom hand loads is a very bad idea for self defense, as it is impossible to carry out ballistic testing if you are but able to use the exact same ammo.

"Determining distance using GSR evidence is supposed to be done by firing ammunition identical to what was in your gun at the time of the shooting. If the ammunition is not standard, it will be difficult to obtain accurate results. "

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/why-you-should-avoid-handloads-for-concealed-carry/#:~:text=The use of handloads can,your attacker's body or clothing.

Ayoob and others strongly discourage it.  Mas talks about problems with " forensic replicability when the shooter is accused, and opposing theories of distance become a factor."

Here's what Ayoob says:

https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/the-problem-with-handloads-for-defense/

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, leahcim said:

I have always understood that custom hand loads is a very bad idea for self defense, as it is impossible to carry out ballistic testing if you are but able to use the exact same ammo.

"Determining distance using GSR evidence is supposed to be done by firing ammunition identical to what was in your gun at the time of the shooting. If the ammunition is not standard, it will be difficult to obtain accurate results. "

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/why-you-should-avoid-handloads-for-concealed-carry/#:~:text=The use of handloads can,your attacker's body or clothing.

Ayoob and others strongly discourage it.  Mas talks about problems with " forensic replicability when the shooter is accused, and opposing theories of distance become a factor."

Here's what Ayoob says:

https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/the-problem-with-handloads-for-defense/

 

 

 

Ugh, so much stupid in those links. 

If the system is trying to screw you it will have little to do with handloads, not a single argument in those links has ever been used, and would never work with a half competent lawyer. 

If anything, load your rounds hot so there is plenty of extra GSR to go around, lol

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I’m not well versed on ammo, what I know is I buy FMJ an got to the range to practice. 
I have a question, does soft point bullets fill the void you gents are discussing? Is a SP bullet a good alternative to a HP bullet?

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17 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Ugh, so much stupid in those links. 

If the system is trying to screw you it will have little to do with handloads, not a single argument in those links has ever been used, and would never work with a half competent lawyer. 

Yeah, Mas is a total dumbass when it comes to firearms.  No one is stopping you from using hand loads. Go ahead. 

But why give the state extra ammo to help in their prosecution?  With hand loads they'll be able to throw out any argument based on ballistic testing, because there is no way to reproduce the load you used, other than based on your word.

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3 minutes ago, Redeye65 said:

I’m not well versed on ammo, what I know is I buy FMJ an got to the range to practice. 
I have a question, does soft point bullets fill the void you gents are discussing? Is a SP bullet a good alternative to a HP bullet?

SP will expand better than FMJ, but not as well as JHP typically.

What void needs filling? JHP is legal to possess in your home and is the best choice for pistol rounds. Unless you have a unicorn you can't carry a pistol away from home so the point is moot.

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2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Ugh, so much stupid in those links. 

If the system is trying to screw you it will have little to do with handloads, not a single argument in those links has ever been used, and would never work with a half competent lawyer. 

If anything, load your rounds hot so there is plenty of extra GSR to go around, lol

 

2 hours ago, leahcim said:

Yeah, Mas is a total dumbass when it comes to firearms.  No one is stopping you from using hand loads. Go ahead. 

But why give the state extra ammo to help in their prosecution?  With hand loads they'll be able to throw out any argument based on ballistic testing, because there is no way to reproduce the load you used, other than based on your word.

I've always carried factory loads.

However if they're getting in to what ammo you used you've got bigger worries.

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2 hours ago, leahcim said:

Yeah, Mas is a total dumbass when it comes to firearms.  No one is stopping you from using hand loads. Go ahead. 

But why give the state extra ammo to help in their prosecution?  With hand loads they'll be able to throw out any argument based on ballistic testing, because there is no way to reproduce the load you used, other than based on your word.

Using a case of "suicide" by gun shot to the back of the head is hardly ground breaking reasoning not to use hand loads. And GSR will be on anyone, using any rounds, if self inflicted. There is not a hand load out there that exists that wouldnt do that. 

If you use handloads neither you, nor the state has ballistic data to use in court. Thats not a lose for the defense, it's a draw. And lets be real, ballistic data doesn't change much at short home self defense ranges. 

I'm finding it incredibly hard to beleive, especially with the lack of physical evidence, that hand loads dont leave GSR at the same distances a factory load would. 

 

3 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

 

 

However if they're getting in to what ammo you used you've got bigger worries.

This was my point. 

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20 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Using a case of "suicide" by gun shot to the back of the head is hardly ground breaking reasoning not to use hand loads. And GSR will be on anyone, using any rounds, if self inflicted. There is not a hand load out there that exists that wouldnt do that. 

If you use handloads neither you, nor the state has ballistic data to use in court. Thats not a lose for the defense, it's a draw. And lets be real, ballistic data doesn't change much at short home self defense ranges. 

I'm finding it incredibly hard to beleive, especially with the lack of physical evidence, that hand loads dont leave GSR at the same distances a factory load would. 

 

This was my point. 

It does not matter what you or I believe, what matters is what you can prove by repeatable means for the court.

That being said, I think we all can agree that is it gets too that point especially in NJ, you are already screwed. 

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34 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Using a case of "suicide" by gun shot to the back of the head is hardly ground breaking reasoning not to use hand loads. And GSR will be on anyone, using any rounds, if self inflicted. There is not a hand load out there that exists that wouldnt do that. 

True

If you use handloads neither you, nor the state has ballistic data to use in court. Thats not a lose for the defense, it's a draw. And lets be real, ballistic data doesn't change much at short home self defense ranges. 

More importantly is how the jury sees it.

I'm finding it incredibly hard to beleive, especially with the lack of physical evidence, that hand loads dont leave GSR at the same distances a factory load would. 

GSR is left by both handloads and factory ammo. GSR is generally up to 5 feet away.  Use a 22 short you may not find any at 2 feet.  Use a 357 magnum and you will find it at 5 feet.  

 

This was my point. 

 

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8 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

GSR is left by both handloads and factory ammo. GSR is generally up to 5 feet away.  Use a 22 short you may not find any at 2 feet.  Use a 357 magnum and you will find it at 5 feet.  

Not for you, @GRIZ, you can enjoy the laugh, but for everyone else including @JackDaWack & @ leahcim  :

If you want to experiment with GSR, the easiest way to "trace" where it goes is to video yourself shooting the gun in question.

Different powder types burn at different rates (speed).  Different manufacturers use different powders, and some are more "clean-burning than others (reloaders know this)!  Bullseye is a dirty, slow-burning center fire propellant, NOT an explosive, and yet fills an indoor range with almost as much smoke as my black powder revo's seen here! 

Easiest way I know of to demo GSR is to shoot a few cylinder's worth of the "Holy Black", then go home, throw yer clothes in a laundry basket and take a shower.  Dry-off, then stick yer face a foot away from yer clothes and smell those glorious ROTTEN EGGS, lol!  That smell is on everything you wore, RIGHT?  That's the Poor Man's GSR Test, lol!

Rosey

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10 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Not for you, @GRIZ, you can enjoy the laugh, but for everyone else including @JackDaWack & @ leahcim  :

If you want to experiment with GSR, the easiest way to "trace" where it goes is to video yourself shooting the gun in question.

Different powder types burn at different rates (speed).  Different manufacturers use different powders, and some are more "clean-burning than others (reloaders know this)!  Bullseye is a dirty, slow-burning center fire propellant, NOT an explosive, and yet fills an indoor range with almost as much smoke as my black powder revo's seen here! 

Easiest way I know of to demo GSR is to shoot a few cylinder's worth of the "Holy Black", then go home, throw yer clothes in a laundry basket and take a shower.  Dry-off, then stick yer face a foot away from yer clothes and smell those glorious ROTTEN EGGS, lol!  That smell is on everything you wore, RIGHT?  That's the Poor Man's GSR Test, lol!

Rosey

 May be an image of 1 person 

Smokeless powders don't leave GSR based on "cleanliness". They look for trace elements contained in all smokeless powder. At least that is from what I have read and understand from forensic science. Whether you are examining the reactant of unburnt or "Dirty" powder, vs the products of combustion... either or would be present regardless of the powder used. 

The visible smoke is a good indicator of the distance GSR can travel with the naked eye. But a forensic examination is most likely running a swab across clothing and doing a test through chromatography or another element identifying process. Instead of looking for compounds, they look for the standard elements in gunpowder. 

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4 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Smokeless powders don't leave GSR based on "cleanliness". They look for trace elements contained in all smokeless powder. At least that is from what I have read and understand from forensic science. Whether you are examining the reactant of unburnt or "Dirty" powder, vs the products of combustion... either or would be present regardless of the powder used. 

The visible smoke is a good indicator of the distance GSR can travel with the naked eye. But a forensic examination is most likely running a swab across clothing and doing a test through chromatography.

The dirtier the powder, the more dense the spray & smoke.  Varying handloads in centerfire cartridges could lead to "unknowns" as far as distance vs. density, which is what Mass was referring to when he was quoted on the use of hand loads causing "problems" with forensics.  A really clean burning powder a competitive action shooter uses could raise questions (Perp was twice the distance YOU said he was in a sworn statement, so why did you shoot him?). 

I merely illustrated his point by using a photo of nice, DIRTY black powder.

Yes, the Lab will swab everything with Q-Tips looking for chemical reactions to reagents.  And yes the Lab will go to "the known values" of ppm density at distance to determine actual distance, since these records are standardized by barrel length, ammo manufacturer, type, weight, construction, primer, etc., etc.  Go "off the charts" with handloads and "science can be fooled"...

~R 

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2 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

 Go "off the charts" with handloads and "science can be fooled"...

~R 

If handloads don't fit in nicely with their "data" on factory ammo it doesn't constitute fooling anyone. They simply have no standard to compare to. 

My point is that regardless, unless you're using some super special bullets, powder or primers, they all produce similar GSR at short distances based on what they can test for. Whether its the basic components in a primer, the copper or lead from the bullets, or stabilizers or nitrates in the powder. "Clean burning" powder is not any less dense in what is detectable since they typical don't look for the substances that produce smoke. At least from what I have gathered from various law enforcement studies I have not read anything to the contrary unless it was used for a visual inspection, which would be close enough for burn marks.

If you shoot someone within close range they will have GSR on them, with out a doubt if you are in a confined space at any reasonable distance. If some prosecutor can't place you at exactly the distance, that's not your problem. 

99% of the people who handload most likely produce extremely similar GSR patterns as major manufacturers across the same calibers.  

 

 

 

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As techno-science improves, forensic analysis improves with it.  Spray of powder fragments will vary with the same ammo outta the same box.  Take any major brand in (for example) 9mm caliber, put it in a 3" subcompact and you'll get a fireball.  The fireball is the result of unburned & partially-burned powder lighting-up after the round leaves the short barrel.  Powders burn at a known rate.  It's physics.  Put that same 9mm round into a rifle and more pressure builds up behind it at ignition as more powder is efficiently burned and not merely wasted as "gas flash".  The bullet travels faster as the powder burns INSIDE the barrel instead of outside.  Less powder residue hits the ambient air.  This could be an unknown if "the murder weapon" was taken from the scene by the Perp (for instance).  What gun are the cops looking for? Then the Lab has to compare twist rates, rifling, etc. IF they can find a slug that didn't destroy itself on impact.  Wanna really screw-up forensics?  Take a S&W JM 9mm revolver and see if the Prosecutor is looking for a semi-auto "hit man" that "policed his brass"...when all the guy did was leave the spent shells in the cylinder...LOL.

Everything a Prosecutor is told MATTERS.  Conclusions can be drawn from misinterpretation of data, errors in data collection, sloppiness at the scene, etc., etc.  Some of those conclusions can jeopardize your freedom IF you let them...

Remember the Prosecutor that asked the Crime Lab gun guy to reinsert the firing pin the right way into McCloskey's .380 PPK so they could attempt to charge her with brandishing at the crowd trying to "cocktail" her house?  The PPK was incapable of discharging as it had been rendered inoperable so as to enable it to be used in a court case as evidence. 

Bottom line, If someone wants to screw with you, it can be done...

Image result for st. louis couple who pointed guns

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On 2/17/2021 at 12:36 PM, Grapeshot said:

You all do realize that GSR is not admissible in court?  The police can use it to lead them to other analysis techniques that are admissible, but GSR by itself itself is not. 

 

I was not aware of that.


I actually read an article recently (written in 2017) that provided good detail about GSR and how it's used.

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/criminology/the-importance-of-gunshot-residue-as-evidence-criminology-essay.php

 

Was there a recent decision made somewhere that now disqualifies GSR evidence in criminal cases?

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It's admissible in the UK (where that article was written (and it's a very good article - thanks!)), and in most of Europe and Latin America - just not here. 

Sit in the back of a police car. Ride around the block. Get out. Chances are very good that I can find gun shot residue on you - and that is all a defense attorney needs for reasonable doubt. This paper addressees that, but I haven't seen any trends in the US that would point to increased use. 

Just for background, I sell GSR (SEM-EDX), have given papers on it, and trained users. It's almost never used in the US anymore. The technology isn't cheap, and most police departments will spend that kind of money on DNA testing. That may change as technology improves, but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet. 

 

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On 2/16/2021 at 9:57 PM, Smokin .50 said:

Bullseye is a dirty, slow-burning center fire propellant, NOT an explosive, and yet fills an indoor range with almost as much smoke as my black powder revo's seen here! 

Minor correction, Bullseye is pretty fast, as smokeless propellants go.  And dirty.

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On 2/15/2021 at 11:01 PM, Smith said:

More importantly .. in this forum, how many people used any weapon in last 30 years for self defense in home? Yes we could say hypothetically and now sky is limit. 

I take it in your statement is directly referring to hollow point necessity? But the contents of your statement ". in this forum, how many people used any weapon in last 30 years for self defense in home?" infers to there being no point, need or necessity to keeping a defensive firearm or any other defensive weapon in ones home at all

What you said is what I would expect to see written by an anti-gun activist trolling the site.

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19 minutes ago, fslater said:

I take it in your statement is directly referring to hollow point necessity? But the contents of your statement ". in this forum, how many people used any weapon in last 30 years for self defense in home?" infers to there being no point, need or necessity to keeping a defensive firearm or any other defensive weapon in ones home at all

What you said is what I would expect to see written by an anti-gun activist trolling the site.

May be taking it too far in wrong direction. I am one of the biggest anti of anti gun activist. In my family between NJ and ohio we probably have all toys including AR. However, for home defense I don’t see this big point. I don’t think after use of three round of any type of bullet, you need any more. Assuming every else align.When I wrote comment it was about the paranoia of “need to be ready for anything” it’s kind of absolute statement.

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1 hour ago, Smith said:

I don’t think after use of three round of any type of bullet, you need any more. Assuming every else align.

How many assailants are usually involved in a home invasion?   Hint: it does not equal 1.0.

How many rounds does it take to stop a threat?  Hint: It’s not 1.  
 

What is your hit percentage at 20yds under stress?   Hint, it’s not 60%

That math alone shows you need more than 3.

Non-quantitatively, why would I base a home defense strategy “assuming everything aligns”?

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On 2/16/2021 at 10:42 AM, JackDaWack said:

I thought we were talking about hollow points for self defense in the home? 

In which case I would use them for all of the above, or alternatively polymer tipped. 

 

 

 

Armor piercing?

I mean if your gonna go...go bi----g..  go through...and keep going...

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12 hours ago, Smith said:

May be taking it too far in wrong direction. I am one of the biggest anti of anti gun activist. In my family between NJ and ohio we probably have all toys including AR. However, for home defense I don’t see this big point. I don’t think after use of three round of any type of bullet, you need any more. Assuming every else align.When I wrote comment it was about the paranoia of “need to be ready for anything” it’s kind of absolute statement.

If you're not ready for anything, then you're ready for nothing.... 

The boys scouts had it right, always be prepared. 

 

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On 2/15/2021 at 11:01 PM, Smith said:

More importantly .. in this forum, how many people used any weapon in last 30 years for self defense in home? Yes we could say hypothetically and now sky is limit. 

@Smith I'll raise my hand....ME, that's who!

FWIW do you enjoy throwing hand grenades and then disappearin' back into the woodwork?

3 rounds?  What about multiple attackers doing a home invasion?

90 posts in 11 months.  Troll much?

~R

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16 hours ago, Smith said:

I don’t think after use of three round of any type of bullet, you need any more.

Well . . . Everybody else has pointed out that you're assuming a 100% hit rate and . . . well . . . no more than three assailants . . . 

But, beyond that, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference what you think.  You will not be defending my home or my family.  It's up to me to determine what I need and/or what I want.  I don't even want to go to the range and have to reload every three rounds.

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On 2/25/2021 at 10:53 AM, EdF said:

Well . . . Everybody else has pointed out that you're assuming a 100% hit rate and . . . well . . . no more than three assailants . . . 

But, beyond that, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference what you think.  You will not be defending my home or my family.  It's up to me to determine what I need and/or what I want.  I don't even want to go to the range and have to reload every three rounds.

You are right ..May be...assume that you get one sedan( or more) full of intruders(4-5 or more) if all of them with weapon you are out numbered pretty soon unless you are using some sort of AR or something...

if intruders are either less then 4 or not have weapon with everyone, psychologically most will start running after first bullet hits target. So, I agree in range we get annoyed to reload and I am not even suggesting that we need to have mags with three rounds only...but all I am saying is under normal self defense conditions you wouldn’t need lot more. Unless you know that intruders are very well trained. Which would be good stand-off! 
 

once again practical preparedness vs paranoia...two different things. Differentiate wants from needs.  

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20 minutes ago, Smith said:

You are right ..May be...assume that you get one sedan( or more) full of intruders(4-5 or more) if all of them with weapon you are out numbered pretty soon unless you are using some sort of AR or something...

if intruders are either less then 4 or not have weapon with everyone, psychologically most will start running after first bullet hits target. So, I agree in range we get annoyed to reload and I am not even suggesting that we need to have mags with three rounds only...but all I am saying is under normal self defense conditions you wouldn’t need lot more. Unless you know that intruders are very well trained. Which would be good stand-off! 
 

once again practical preparedness vs paranoia...two different things. Differentiate wants from needs.  

So you only load 3 rounds into any gun?

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22 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

all I am saying is under normal self defense conditions

Normal self defense conditions?  The "normal conditions" at my house are that no one is breaking in or threatening me or my family.  

As soon as someone does, the conditions be ABNORMAL.  That's what we need protection for.  

24 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

if all of them with weapon you are out numbered pretty soon unless you are using some sort of AR or something...

What the hell does an AR have to do with it?  In NJ we are still limited to 10 rounds and an AR doesn't shoot or reload any faster than  a handgun.  

I'm really not sure what you are trying to show us here.

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