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Legal self defense ammo in the home

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13 hours ago, EdF said:

Normal self defense conditions?  The "normal conditions" at my house are that no one is breaking in or threatening me or my family.  

As soon as someone does, the conditions be ABNORMAL.  That's what we need protection for.  

What the hell does an AR have to do with it?  In NJ we are still limited to 10 rounds and an AR doesn't shoot or reload any faster than  a handgun.  

I'm really not sure what you are trying to show us here.

@EdFI never said those those things you quoted.  You did.  

You're arguing with yourself. Do you do that in front of a mirror?

So do you or don't you load more than3 rounds in a firearm?  Earlier on you said that's all that's needed.  Then you go on to to talk about normal and abnormal self defense conditions.

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2 hours ago, GRIZ said:

I never said those those things you quoted.  You did.  

I think the quote got messed up. Both what EdF replied to and what you say he said: 

2 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Earlier on you said that's all that's needed.  Then you go on to to talk about normal and abnormal self defense conditions.

Came from Smith.  

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16 hours ago, Smith said:

You are right ..May be...assume that you get one sedan( or more) full of intruders(4-5 or more) if all of them with weapon you are out numbered pretty soon unless you are using some sort of AR or something...

if intruders are either less then 4 or not have weapon with everyone, psychologically most will start running after first bullet hits target. So, I agree in range we get annoyed to reload and I am not even suggesting that we need to have mags with three rounds only...but all I am saying is under normal self defense conditions you wouldn’t need lot more. Unless you know that intruders are very well trained. Which would be good stand-off! 
 

once again practical preparedness vs paranoia...two different things. Differentiate wants from needs.  

You’re right that there is a fine line between preparedness and paranoia.  That’s a balance each of us must find and it is not a one-size fits all answer. Both terms are subjective. 

That said, relying on any intruders retreating doesn’t seem like a safe strategy. You don’t know the intent, experience or state of mind of the intruders.    If they are desperate, used to being around gunshots, or whacked out of their mind on something, then they may not retreat. If you assume they will then you’re left at an extreme disadvantage.   Does that mean you need a 30mm Phalanx in your driveway?  No.  But to recommend a single 3-round magazine is equally dumb. 

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43 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Does that mean you need a 30mm Phalanx in your driveway?  No.  

Speak for yourself :)

Someday someone will let me design their security to a level that would require one as part of the physical layer......

Corporate property management just does not see the need.......  smh.

 

So a serious question for self defense ammo - as I am sorting on a rainy day.

I was given in a trade 100 Rounds in a dillon box of Federal .357 158Gr Jacketed soft points - the fellow cannot find the box- these are them.

Federal 357 Mag 158 gr Jacketed Soft Point 50/Box | Sportsman's Outdoor  Superstore

All my self defense ammo, I keep the original box, with the production data of it - or if I move it to another hard box, I clip the box production code information and type and place it in that hard box.

So I am hesitant to use this ammo for self defense - Am I being overly anal about this?

What are your thoughts? ( and I realize it is not legal advice )

 

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4 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

 

 

What are your thoughts? ( and I realize it is not legal advice )

 

I'm struggling to understand why you'd be hesitant to use this.  Not being facetious.  Are you concerned it's been stored poorly?

I wouldn't use it if only because it isn't one of the top tier hollow point rounds.   I'm quite sure it'll stop someone.  It may over penetrate, it may not stop them as quickly.  Shrug.  It's probably fine and the difference in 100 shootings is probably so close to zero as to be zero.   That said, If I'm going to pay top dollar for self defense rounds, may as well pay the extra and get the best stuff that gives you that tiny little erg more that may only matter once in 100 shootings.  Hornady Critical defense, Corbon, Winchester PDX1 or the like.  

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5 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Speak for yourself :)

Someday someone will let me design their security to a level that would require one as part of the physical layer......

Corporate property management just does not see the need.......  smh.

 

So a serious question for self defense ammo - as I am sorting on a rainy day.

I was given in a trade 100 Rounds in a dillon box of Federal .357 158Gr Jacketed soft points - the fellow cannot find the box- these are them.

Federal 357 Mag 158 gr Jacketed Soft Point 50/Box | Sportsman's Outdoor  Superstore

All my self defense ammo, I keep the original box, with the production data of it - or if I move it to another hard box, I clip the box production code information and type and place it in that hard box.

So I am hesitant to use this ammo for self defense - Am I being overly anal about this?

What are your thoughts? ( and I realize it is not legal advice )

 

Soft point is designed to pentrate more than hollow point.  Just about every SD round will penetrate leaving an entry and exit wound.

I prefer a 125 gr JHP in 357 as a SD round.  Traveling faster it expands faster but will still go through. 

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23 hours ago, Smith said:

You are right ..May be...assume that you get one sedan( or more) full of intruders(4-5 or more) if all of them with weapon you are out numbered pretty soon unless you are using some sort of AR or something...

if intruders are either less then 4 or not have weapon with everyone, psychologically most will start running after first bullet hits target. So, I agree in range we get annoyed to reload and I am not even suggesting that we need to have mags with three rounds only...but all I am saying is under normal self defense conditions you wouldn’t need lot more. Unless you know that intruders are very well trained. Which would be good stand-off! 
 

once again practical preparedness vs paranoia...two different things. Differentiate wants from needs.  

Out of curiosity, where are you getting this information from? What is a normal self defense situation regarding a home invasion? 

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2 hours ago, Malsua said:

I'm struggling to understand why you'd be hesitant to use this.  Not being facetious.  Are you concerned it's been stored poorly?

I wouldn't use it if only because it isn't one of the top tier hollow point rounds.   I'm quite sure it'll stop someone.  It may over penetrate, it may not stop them as quickly.  Shrug.  It's probably fine and the difference in 100 shootings is probably so close to zero as to be zero.   That said, If I'm going to pay top dollar for self defense rounds, may as well pay the extra and get the best stuff that gives you that tiny little erg more that may only matter once in 100 shootings.  Hornady Critical defense, Corbon, Winchester PDX1 or the like.  

I meant more of a point of not having the original box and lot number.

2 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Soft point is designed to pentrate more than hollow point.  Just about every SD round will penetrate leaving an entry and exit wound.

I prefer a 125 gr JHP in 357 as a SD round.  Traveling faster it expands faster but will still go through. 

Tnx....  i was wondering more of not having the origninal box with lot number.

 

As a reloader i felt it was better for self d rounds to have the original info etc....  maybe overkill has been talked about in the past.... if they r looking at your ammo you have bigger problems...

45 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Notice I said “need” not “have”.  The current block-1b has an effective anti-surface mode. 

:)

 

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Just my opinion, using over the counter mass produced self defense ammunition by a federally licensed manufacturer that is considered everyday common use ammunition for self defense can not be used against you negatively in the course of your legal self defense in your home.

how ever, in home Reloaded ammunition's are not made by a federal licensee and do not meet everyday common use therefore it is quite possible Reload ammo could be used against you negatively...

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On 2/27/2021 at 6:57 AM, GRIZ said:

@EdFI never said those those things you quoted.  You did.  

You're arguing with yourself. Do you do that in front of a mirror?

So do you or don't you load more than3 rounds in a firearm?  Earlier on you said that's all that's needed.  Then you go on to to talk about normal and abnormal self defense conditions.

I'm owed an apology Dude . . . 

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@EdF, go back to my post of 2/26/2021 at 4.37pm.

This is what I said.

On 2/26/2021 at 4:37 PM, GRIZ said:

So you only load 3 rounds into any gun?

I will apologize for saying you're arguing with yourself.

I will not apologize for you asking me to respond to what someone else said.

 

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On 2/27/2021 at 5:46 PM, CAL. .30 M1 said:

I meant more of a point of not having the original box and lot number.

Tnx....  i was wondering more of not having the origninal box with lot number.

 

As a reloader i felt it was better for self d rounds to have the original info etc....  maybe overkill has been talked about in the past.... if they r looking at your ammo you have bigger problems...

:)

 

If you ever found yourself to in a deadly force encounter using FMJ, SP or JHP is pretty much irrelevant.  They are all potentially deadly and they are all potentially going to pass through your intended target and hit something beyond. That is something for you to be aware of and mitigate when you fire the shot (or not). Even the best JHP is designed to penetrate to at least 12 inches. There are very few people in the world that have an arm 12 inches thick so if you just winged them, the bullet is going to continue on to something else.

If your legal defense strategy is that you didn't mean to use deadly force, you shouldn't have been using any of the above at all. Remember, using deadly force does not automatically mean you were trying to kill the bad guy. It means you were willing and justified in taking the risk that he'd die due to necessity to stop the serious threat immediately.

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2 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

If you ever found yourself to in a deadly force encounter using FMJ, SP or JHP is pretty much irrelevant.  They are all potentially deadly and they are all potentially going to pass through your intended target and hit something beyond. That is something for you to be aware of and mitigate when you fire the shot (or not). Even the best JHP is designed to penetrate to at least 12 inches. There are very few people in the world that have an arm 12 inches thick so if you just winged them, the bullet is going to continue on to something else.

If your legal defense strategy is that you didn't mean to use deadly force, you shouldn't have been using any of the above at all. Remember, using deadly force does not automatically mean you were trying to kill the bad guy. It means you were willing and justified in taking the risk that he'd die due to necessity to stop the serious threat immediately.

You are missing my true question - 

Would you use ammunition, where you did not have the original factory box and or factory production LOT details as printedon thebox etc.

Nothing more nothing less.....

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10 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

You are missing my true question - 

Would you use ammunition, where you did not have the original factory box and or factory production LOT details as printed on the box etc.

Nothing more nothing less.....

I have ammo cans full of .308 ammo, loose.   Most has LC 87 or other similar head stamps.   

I have plastic boxes of 9mm and .45 in which I shoot and replace the empty carts for future reloading.    Once I've loaded it in the other box, the original cardboard is discarded.

I don't know that I've ever even bothered to look at anything beyond the head stamp.   

To answer the question, I shoot ammo ALL THE TIME without the slightest care as to the lot details.   I'm not entirely sure why anyone would unless you're experiencing some specific kind of a malfunction.  That said, I also often shoot right from a box and if there's a particular issue with a particular gun, I make a note of it.

For example, I know that my Smith and Wesson Performance Series 1911 in 9mm likes to stovepipe on Blazer brass.  The same ammo runs fine in my other 9mms.   What did I do?  I sold every box I had of it and I will not buy any more.   

 

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Would you use ammunition, where you did not have the original factory box and or factory production LOT details as printedon thebox etc.

This is about the least important question that can come up in a self defense situation.  It's the last portion of the investigation that anybody will care about.  

Yes, if I were reloading, I would have no issue using those rounds for self defense.

 

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31 minutes ago, EdF said:

This is about the least important question that can come up in a self defense situation.  It's the last portion of the investigation that anybody will care about.  

Yes, if I were reloading, I would have no issue using those rounds for self defense.

 

This addresses my question - thank you for providing your opinion.

I think my take on it, is because I reload, I think taking the equation about the use of reloads possibly being used for self defense - keeping the carton information where the ammo came from might make sense.  However, as stated this might be the last item in the investigation etc. that is looked at

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7 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

This addresses my question - thank you for providing your opinion.

I think my take on it, is because I reload, I think taking the equation about the use of reloads possibly being used for self defense - keeping the carton information where the ammo came from might make sense.  However, as stated this might be the last item in the investigation etc. that is looked at

Who to say they won't take the box that is manufactured and marketed as the most deadly, devastating expansion gauranteed to fuck up your target? Use it against you, and claim you were just looking to kill someone based on your ammo choice. 

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7 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Who to say they won't take the box that is manufactured and marketed as the most deadly, devastating expansion gauranteed to fuck up your target? Use it against you, and claim you were just looking to kill someone based on your ammo choice. 

They could, i also read a safe bet for self defense ammo is to use the same type ammo that law enforcement uses ....  

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1 hour ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

You are missing my true question - 

Would you use ammunition, where you did not have the original factory box and or factory production LOT details as printedon thebox etc.

I confess, it's not something I'd worried about previously.  And while I'm not a lawyer, I've decided I'm not going to worry about it now.   I don't see how possession of the original box with lot number would matter.

I did stop keeping reloads in HD guns a few years ago, and switched to factory ammo of a type that law enforcement might typically use.  I don't know if that really matters from a legal point of view, but my thinking was that it would give a prosecuting attorney one less thing to fake histrionics over should my choice of ammo ever be discussed in a courtroom

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There's never been a case where anyone was charged for (or had additional charges levied against them) the use of reloaded ammunition.

Never.

I don't spend any mental energy on this and it doesn't impact how I keep my ammo/magazines in the house.

 



 

 

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