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DirtyDigz

Car engine barely turning over after sitting few months?

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Have a Honda Element that's my "hauling vehicle".  Air conditioning in it crapped out in the spring so I haven't been driving it all summer.  Last time I drove it was probably June.

Went to start it a couple of days ago, dead battery (as expected).  Trickle charged battery overnight, next morning went to start it and the engine barely turned over.  Figured the battery was toast, got a new battery.

New battery went in yesterday, went to start, same thing, engine barely turns over.  Ok, maybe new battery wasn't charged.  Put a trickle charger on it overnight.

This morning, go to start it again, same thing.  The starter can barely get the engine turned over - I get a "rrrrrrrrrr *chug*  rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr *chug*chug*"; meanwhile the lights on the dash are dimming.

Pulled out a fully charged lithium-ion "battery booster" and hooked it up to the battery, tried to start one more time, same thing.

I don't think I have a battery issue anymore.  Is it possible the starter has gone bad while sitting for ~4 months?

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How are the terminals on the battery?   Battery plus booster and still slow turn over sound like you've got a corrosion problem somewhere. 

Try jumping it with different vehicle.

You could also try running a jumper cable from the negative terminal to somewhere metal, like an ear on the cylinder block or something without paint on it.  That will eliminate the ground side of it anyway.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the ideas - battery terminals are clean, still shiny metal on the leads. 

Will try to jumper negative to vehicle ground, however researching on Honda Element forums seems to indicate worn brushes on the starter, with lots of people going through the same thing I've been doing - car barely turns over, assume it's battery, new battery makes no difference, go to replace starter, nearly choke on the brush dust that falls out of the starter while replacing it, car starts as good as new once replacement starter is in.

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5 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Thanks for the ideas - battery terminals are clean, still shiny metal on the leads. 

Will try to jumper negative to vehicle ground, however researching on Honda Element forums seems to indicate worn brushes on the starter, with lots of people going through the same thing I've been doing - car barely turns over, assume it's battery, new battery makes no difference, go to replace starter, nearly choke on the brush dust that falls out of the starter while replacing it, car starts as good as new once replacement starter is in.

Starters usually aren't that big of a deal to replace, but I've never done an Element.

It'd be nice if it's just the wire though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Looks like it's going to require unbolting the intake manifold and undoing a couple of radiator hoses to get at it.

OEM rebuilt starter and intake manifold gasket sitting in online basket.  Will pull the trigger on those if the negative jumper doesn't start it.

What year is it? I just saw a youtube video on doing it without removing the manifold.  Not too bad, but you need a couple of tools to make it easier.

 

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You have assured there's oil in the crank case right? That it didn't go dry?

Just asking, because once a company car I drove sure seemed like the starter motor was the problem. After it was replaced they realized the oil pump had quit and the engine had seized.

Of course that engine had been running, not sitting all winter.

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1 hour ago, 45Doll said:

You have assured there's oil in the crank case right? That it didn't go dry?

...

I did, actually, because I had thought along the same lines - starter struggling/battery is good means that the torque needed to turn the crank increased for some reason?

Oil level is good, between the dots, looks maple-syrup-ish.

5 minutes ago, CMJeepster said:

Check your blinker fluid.

Muffler bearings were lubed just last year!

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2 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

Have a Honda Element that's my "hauling vehicle".  Air conditioning in it crapped out in the spring so I haven't been driving it all summer.  Last time I drove it was probably June.

Went to start it a couple of days ago, dead battery (as expected).  Trickle charged battery overnight, next morning went to start it and the engine barely turned over.  Figured the battery was toast, got a new battery.

New battery went in yesterday, went to start, same thing, engine barely turns over.  Ok, maybe new battery wasn't charged.  Put a trickle charger on it overnight.

This morning, go to start it again, same thing.  The starter can barely get the engine turned over - I get a "rrrrrrrrrr *chug*  rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr *chug*chug*"; meanwhile the lights on the dash are dimming.

Pulled out a fully charged lithium-ion "battery booster" and hooked it up to the battery, tried to start one more time, same thing.

I don't think I have a battery issue anymore.  Is it possible the starter has gone bad while sitting for ~4 months?

STARTER

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Reman'd starter and new gaskets came in a few days ago.  I'm about 6 hours in over past 2 days and finally got daylight on the starter tonight.

Went for the "long" method taking off the intake manifold as I don't have everything needed to get the element up in the air.

It's the first time I've really been poking around under the hood/under the car in a couple of years - I am ***STUNNED*** at how bad the corrosion is in the engine bay and the undercarriage.  Every clamp/bracket/bolt that is steel is rusting, bad.  Have already had a couple of 10mm bolt heads break off when trying to loosen them.

This car has always been my winter driver and I rarely washed it.  I suspect the winter road brine has really eaten it up.

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14 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Reman'd starter and new gaskets came in a few days ago.  I'm about 6 hours in over past 2 days and finally got daylight on the starter tonight.

Went for the "long" method taking off the intake manifold as I don't have everything needed to get the element up in the air.

It's the first time I've really been poking around under the hood/under the car in a couple of years - I am ***STUNNED*** at how bad the corrosion is in the engine bay and the undercarriage.  Every clamp/bracket/bolt that is steel is rusting, bad.  Have already had a couple of 10mm bolt heads break off when trying to loosen them.

This car has always been my winter driver and I rarely washed it.  I suspect the winter road brine has really eaten it up.

i've tried weasl'ing these starters out without pulling the intake. it's easier to pull the intake. it should only be a 2.5 hour job out n back in. you don't always have to replace the plenum gaskets, but it's generally a good idea.

 

 if things are looking that bad, check your steel brake lines. mostly in the rear near any junction.

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I have a 2009 Buick Lucerne with the Caddy Northstar engine in it. Yup, that starter is under the intake also. What a PITA to change it. My starter worked fine, but when taking a sharp turn, don't remember if it was a left or a right, we would hear a loud clink/clank under the hood, and sometimes a zing............ I'm scratching my head trying to determine what the heck can make that kind of noise.

I jack up the car on one side while it is running, no change, jack up the otherside, and ZING........

The starter bendix spring had broken allowing it to slide out and hit the flexplate while it was running! And it would only do it turning one direction which caused it to slide out. I think it was sharp lefts. Anyway, took the intake off and sure enough, it slid side to side easily!

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46 minutes ago, M4BGRINGO said:

I have a 2009 Buick Lucerne with the Caddy Northstar engine in it. Yup, that starter is under the intake also. What a PITA to change it. My starter worked fine, but when taking a sharp turn, don't remember if it was a left or a right, we would hear a loud clink/clank under the hood, and sometimes a zing............ I'm scratching my head trying to determine what the heck can make that kind of noise.

I jack up the car on one side while it is running, no change, jack up the otherside, and ZING........

The starter bendix spring had broken allowing it to slide out and hit the flexplate while it was running! And it would only do it turning one direction which caused it to slide out. I think it was sharp lefts. Anyway, took the intake off and sure enough, it slid side to side easily!

the person that designed those northstar engines needs to be kneecapped

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7 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

the person that designed those northstar engines needs to be kneecapped

Totally agree..... MIL has a 2007 Lucerne with that engine..... 14 mpg ...... and of course its leaking oil from the 2 piece oil pan

TPMS sensors are dying..... and  Air Struts are sending faults....

Cannot wait till we get rid of that thing.....

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11 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

the person that designed those northstar engines needs to be kneecapped

Have you done the water pump yet? I've done it twice, what a joke! I don't know what the changeover year was. One design the water pump comes right off that giant water distribution manifold with a large socket like you would see on a 4wd truck. But no, I don't have that style. I have to remove that large manifold to do the water pump. First time took 12 hours, second time was faster. It is a stupid ass design!

Yes, had to replace the front struts, one was leaking. Got REAL lucky and GM had surplus, got the pair for ONLY $300......... I will say, this is a very nice riding car. Have done motor mounts MANY times. I love the car, it needs a "normal" LS engine in it, 4l60E, and a rear. Then it would be a keeper! Pull the front driveshafts and turn it into a rear wheel drive car! :)

PS: That oil-leaking engine actually kept most of the stuff up-front from ever rusting! Just replaced the rear hard lines that popped from rust!

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11 hours ago, M4BGRINGO said:

Have you done the water pump yet? I've done it twice, what a joke! I don't know what the changeover year was. One design the water pump comes right off that giant water distribution manifold with a large socket like you would see on a 4wd truck. But no, I don't have that style. I have to remove that large manifold to do the water pump. First time took 12 hours, second time was faster. It is a stupid ass design!

Yes, had to replace the front struts, one was leaking. Got REAL lucky and GM had surplus, got the pair for ONLY $300......... I will say, this is a very nice riding car. Have done motor mounts MANY times. I love the car, it needs a "normal" LS engine in it, 4l60E, and a rear. Then it would be a keeper! Pull the front driveshafts and turn it into a rear wheel drive car! :)

PS: That oil-leaking engine actually kept most of the stuff up-front from ever rusting! Just replaced the rear hard lines that popped from rust!

i have not. i've been pretty good at managing to avoid working them.....same with owdies....i try my damndest to avoid working on them

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So 1 step forward, 1 step back.

Starter is out, however the lower starter bolt had galled threads at the tip - took a ton of effort to get out and I'm guessing it tore up the threads in the block on its way out.

Can't find a replacement bolt anywhere nearby.  May try cutting the bunged up threads off the bolt with a dremel, but I still want to find a tap to hopefully salvage the threads inside the block and can't find any store with right size tap (I think it's M12 x 1.25, need to verify) in stock either.

Looks like I'll be ordering a bolt and tap online and waiting a few days.
 

Honda_element_starter_replacement.jpg

Honda_element_starter_bolt.jpg

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The deity of rust and stripped threads smiled upon me - I was able to run a 12 x 1.25 tap back through the hole and restore enough threads for the original bolt (with last ~5mm of threads dremeled off) to thread into it.  Installed the starter, added a bunch of blue loctite to the bolt threads and gingerly hand torqued it down.

Should be able to finish reassembly of everything I had to take loose (intake manifold, throttle body, coolant lines, radiator brackets, radiator frame, lower plastic skirts) and give it a test start tonight.
 

 

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On 10/24/2020 at 11:56 AM, DirtyDigz said:

So 1 step forward, 1 step back.

Starter is out, however the lower starter bolt had galled threads at the tip - took a ton of effort to get out and I'm guessing it tore up the threads in the block on its way out.

Can't find a replacement bolt anywhere nearby.  May try cutting the bunged up threads off the bolt with a dremel, but I still want to find a tap to hopefully salvage the threads inside the block and can't find any store with right size tap (I think it's M12 x 1.25, need to verify) in stock either.

Looks like I'll be ordering a bolt and tap online and waiting a few days.
 

Honda_element_starter_replacement.jpg

Honda_element_starter_bolt.jpg

only place close you'd be likely to find replacement bolt would be dealer or junk yard. you can chean those up with a thread chaser. prolly get one at a napa for cheap. or autozone. i'd clean up the bolts threads, and try threading it back in. if it goes in relatively easy, then you're good to go.

41 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Thanks Brisco.  Unfortunately no go - cranks now, but won't start.

check the battery in the key. if it's got that kind of key. i had a 2016 crv that wouldn't start ;'cause the keys battery was dead

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8 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

check the battery in the key. if it's got that kind of key. i had a 2016 crv that wouldn't start ;'cause the keys battery was dead

Thanks, but don't think that's it.  I believe there's a small transponder chip in the key, but no battery.

I get a couple of pops while cranking that I think are cylinders firing, but not enough to keep the engine going.

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16 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Thanks, but don't think that's it.  I believe there's a small transponder chip in the key, but no battery.

I get a couple of pops while cranking that I think are cylinders firing, but not enough to keep the engine going.

How long did this sit?   Usually old gas isn't an issue, but it probably wouldn't hurt to dump in some fresh.  The fresh will get up to the engine pretty quick if you can get it to run for any length of time, even if it's struggling.  You could also purge some out of the fuel rail.

If it's popping, it's probably a fuel air issue, not a spark issue.  

Check every electrical connection related to fuel/air.   Anything on the intake manifold/throttle body.  Make sure your intake is sealed to the block.   It could be drawing too much air.   You can leave off the big airbox hose  until it's running, just to make sure the flappers are working and it's not the air filter causing a problem.

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