.223 bullet question

[MartyZ 692]

I finally got my SPR working and am now ready to reload for it. I have been reloading for a few years now but strictly pistol ammo, .45, 9mm, and .40, have not yet reloaded rifle. I have all the needed hardware along with over 1k of ready to reload .223 brass that I have been saving throughout the years but now I need some info, specifically when it comes to reloading for precision shooting.

 

I know that I will have to go through a lot of trial and error to find the correct combination of components to make the right bullet for my rifle but I figured I could limit my financial exposure a little by narrowing down my possible bullet and powder selection.

 

I am looking into 69gr at the moment and have been reasearching a few bullets and have some questions. The first question, are all match 69gr and heavier bullets HPs? Looking at Hornady, Sierra, Barnes, Nosler, etc... they are all either HPs or Tipped.

 

Also, I have read that some bullets have issues that they can't be seated deep enough to get an AOL that works in AR mags. Specifically about the A-Max, that the ogive is long enough to create this type of problem.

 

Also, powder, I would prefer a powder that meters easy and is in ready supply. Was looking into CFE 223 but not sure if it's a good powder for precision ammo.

 

As always, I appreciate all the help I can get.    

[MidwestPX 172]

I use 75gr Hornady BTHP bullets. They're relatively cheap without sacrificing performance. My precision .223 uses IMR 8208 XBR for powder. It's a short extruded powder that I have found meters +/- .1gr in my Dillon measures. Being a short powder, it doesn't bridge across the case mouth the way longer powders like H4895 do (which I use for .308). My load is near max but out of an 18" bbl, I'm getting 2850fps with the 75gr Hornady HPBT and sub-MOA accuracy.

[Shocker 150]

Match bullets are open tip because its easier to manufacture them consistently. The tip either initiates expansion (hunting bullets with thin jackets) or reduces drag (match bullets with thick jackets).

 

I've been playing with the 77gr Tipped Match King. It's longer than a Match King so there's less space for powder but the ballistic coefficient is better. Depends on your range what is best for you. I also tried the 69gr TMK but my gun likes the 77gr better, plus when I calculated the ballistics http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php the 69 and 77 were extremely close

 

I read a bunch on the Brian Enos forums before picking a powder. I have AR-Comp which is decent but I've heard good things about CFE also.

[T Bill 649]

When I read other boards I make notes to give me starting points on things. The following is an excerpt of a posting on another board. I compile and file a lot of reloading data to see trends. YMMV so prudent reloading should be followed.  While I have my sweet loads for heavier bullets I mostly load for 55 grains as my home range is only 100 yards.  My 55 grainers are mostly Hornadys no matter the style and are loaded over 25.0 of WC844 not much of that left, H335, or W748  Gives me the best of all worlds, accuracy, mild shooting, maximum case life.  In fact those with split necks go on to live another day as 300BLK before heading to the scrap bucket, 

 

Below are the std loads recommended by John Holliger of White Oak Armament, one of the largest builders of NM uppers and a multi-time winner himself. These are representative of what most guys are using for highpower.

69 gr Sierra (overall length 2.25")
Powder Type
Reloader 15 24.0 to 24.8
This is my favorite load with the 69 grain bullet. It is extremely 
accurate and consistent. Very good velocity.

Varget 24.0 to 25.0
Very accurate. You may have trouble obtaining the velocity of faster 
burning powders. Also, Varget powder burns dirtier than Reloader 15. 

AA 2460 23.5 to 24.0
Very accurate and excellent load. It is a ball powder, so it measures 
very well. No chronograph data.

Hogdon 4895 24.0
Shoots very well, but it does not meter very well, as it is a medium 
stick powder.


80 gr. Sierra (overall length 2.450 to 2.485, depending on lot; allow for .005" - .015" jump - these are single load, not mag length, used for 600 yd matches)

Reloader 15 23.5 to 24.4 [24 is plenty /B]
My pet 80gr load. Very accurate, good velocity and clean burning.

Varget 23.5 to 24.5 [again, 24 will do it /B]
Compressed load. You will not get the velocity of the faster powders.

AA 2460 22.8 to 23.3
Ball powder. No need to weigh charges, even for 600 yard loads. 
Meters very uniformly. No chronograph data, but shoots very well.

Hogdon 4895 22.5 to 23.2
Accurate; good velocity. This is a very good 600 yard load. You will 
probably want to weigh charges, as it does not meter as well as other 
powders. 

Mag length 75-77s will take a charge around the low to middle of the 80s data.
Rl-15 & Varget probably will account for 75% of the cartridges fired from 223 ARs at Camp Perry in the next couple of weeks.

Primers are usually the CCI Benchrest, Rem 7 1/2s or recently, there's been a big switch to Wolff as folks discovered during the recent shrotage just how consistent they are. Use benchrest, magnum or "milspec" primers ... Rem 6 1/2s, std Win or Fed SRs are too soft.

Most any cases are used for 200 - 300 yards excepting the Fed with large lettered headstamps - they're soft and tend to drop primers after a couple reloads. Lake City, Rem, Win are the standard. I've had no issues with the small lettered Fed cases but I'm only up to the 4th reload on them.
 

[Vlad G 345]

It all depends. Everyone has favorite recipes and each gun has favorite loads. You are simply going to have to experiment. 

 

For me, and my specific needs, I have found that the 69/68 gr bullets are easier to deal with (I can drive them harder and faster to a ballistic path I prefer) then 77gr. They are easier to deal with when it comes to seated lengths as well. 

 

For my money the 68gr Hornady's are a very good option. I can't tell the difference in performance between them and 69gr Sierra's, but my requirements are maybe not as strict as others, as long as they shoot sub MOA and I can drive them at 2850fps I'm happy. 

 

For powder I found that Varget is probably still the king for accuracy, but it is a pain to deal with. I like to load progressively and Varget measures like crap in my Dillon powder measure, it does not stay consistent due to its form factor. For me, a second best powder has been Ramshot Tac which results in accurate ammo, flows really fast and consistently through the powder measure and allows for very fast loads without excessive pressure. 

[MidwestPX 172]

It all depends. Everyone has favorite recipes and each gun has favorite loads. You are simply going to have to experiment. 

 

For me, and my specific needs, I have found that the 69/68 gr bullets are easier to deal with (I can drive them harder and faster to a ballistic path I prefer) then 77gr. They are easier to deal with when it comes to seated lengths as well. 

 

For my money the 68gr Hornady's are a very good option. I can't tell the difference in performance between them and 69gr Sierra's, but my requirements are maybe not as strict as others, as long as they shoot sub MOA and I can drive them at 2850fps I'm happy. 

 

For powder I found that Varget is probably still the king for accuracy, but it is a pain to deal with. I like to load progressively and Varget measures like crap in my Dillon powder measure, it does not stay consistent due to its form factor. For me, a second best powder has been Ramshot Tac which results in accurate ammo, flows really fast and consistently through the powder measure and allows for very fast loads without excessive pressure.

Get a pound of 8208 XBR. I had the same issue with H4895 which is a little longer stick than Varget. After switching to 8208 XBR, I haven't looked back. It meters great in my Dillon (+/-.1gr), doesn't bridge the case mouth, and it's completely temperature insensitive like Varget and H4895.

[Vlad G 345]

Interesting, what velocities are you getting with that? Based on their data it looks like I may have to go a bit off the chart to get the velocity I want out of a 18" barrel and  I don't see 5.56 data on their website. 

[MidwestPX 172]

Interesting, what velocities are you getting with that? Based on their data it looks like I may have to go a bit off the chart to get the velocity I want out of a 18" barrel and  I don't see 5.56 data on their website.

I'm over book max but have no pressure signs nor are primer pockets loosening and my 18" bbl is averaging 2850fps.

[Eric. 9]

I use 75gr Hornady BTHP bullets. They're relatively cheap without sacrificing performance. My precision .223 uses IMR 8208 XBR for powder. It's a short extruded powder that I have found meters +/- .1gr in my Dillon measures. Being a short powder, it doesn't bridge across the case mouth the way longer powders like H4895 do (which I use for .308). My load is near max but out of an 18" bbl, I'm getting 2850fps with the 75gr Hornady HPBT and sub-MOA accuracy.

Ty,

 

Would you mind sharing your load data?  

 

I'm tired of beating the bushes for Varget and am thinking about switching.

[MidwestPX 172]

Ty,

 

Would you mind sharing your load data?  

 

I'm tired of beating the bushes for Varget and am thinking about switching.

Ordinarily I'd be happy to share my recipes however I do not share anything that has a powder charge over book max for safety/liability reasons.

[Eric. 9]

Ordinarily I'd be happy to share my recipes however I do not share anything that has a powder charge over book max for safety/liability reasons.

 

I can understand that.  Im gonna do my own ladder, either way.

 

Maybe you wouldnt mind answering if the powder load you ended up with is similar to using Varget? (If not, again, I understand)

[MidwestPX 172]

I can understand that.  Im gonna do my own ladder, either way.

 

Maybe you wouldnt mind answering if the powder load you ended up with is similar to using Varget? (If not, again, I understand)

You'd have to provide the charge weight as I've never used Varget. I've read too many posts about metering issues with Dillon PMs so I never considered it even though I know it works well with the caliber and is temperature insensitive.

[Eric. 9]

You'd have to provide the charge weight as I've never used Varget. I've read too many posts about metering issues with Dillon PMs so I never considered it even though I know it works well with the caliber and is temperature insensitive.

I'm at 24.2 gr of Varget and Hornady 75gr .223 pills.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I'm at 24.2 gr of Varget and Hornady 75gr .223 pills.

 

I'm assuming BTHP?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

 

I'm tired of beating the bushes for Varget and am thinking about switching.

What do you mean? I've been trying to stock up on Varget since i hear so many people enjoy it.

[MidwestPX 172]

I'm at 24.2 gr of Varget and Hornady 75gr .223 pills.

I'm loading a similar charge weight. Here's some of my results (no powder charges listed intentionally)

 

 

The first block of data is pretty self-explanatory. The second block is actually the three highest charge weights from the first block. The third block is just one charge weight and is the charge weight that I chose to load. The last block of data is about a 1 grain spread between the three charges so I could "work up" due to the brass change.

 

 

In this block of data, the highest weight experienced very mild ejector swipe (I forgot to make a note of that). I load the second highest charge weight because it's either as accurate or slightly more accurate than the highest weight.

 

I should mention that these are being loaded on my 1050. I'm sure I could tighten things up by using my Rockchucker.

[njplinker 8]

What do you mean? I've been trying to stock up on Varget since i hear so many people enjoy it.

I think he means it's very had to find and looking for something more readily available.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

makes sense thanks

[MartyZ 692]

Ok folks, I know it's been a while but I finally got out to the range to try out my reloads and I am a bit confused by my results and i'm hoping the experts on this board can help. First of all let me preface by saying that any inconsistencies in grouping are 90% my fault. And unfortunately I don't have a chrony so velocities are unknown. These are coming out of a 20" 1:8 rifle length .223 wylde barrel.

 

Now here is what I did with my first attempt, all cases trimmed to 1.748 and OAL 2.234, CCI #450 primer, 68gr Hornady HPBT, 8208XBR in 5 different loads, but only 2 loads gave good results 22.6 gr and 23.8 gr. The problem is that with 23.8 gr I was getting better groups at 200yds then I was at 100yds. Also, at 100yds I was getting better groups from cheap 55gr PMC then I was with the reloads.

 

It appears that i'm getting better groups with 22.6 at 100 yds and 23.8 is better at 200 yds.

 

Also, I was getting absolutely no signs of over pressure at 23.8 which is the suggested load maximum fro 8208 XBR. So i'm thinking of going a little higher just to see what happens.

 

22.6 gr at 100yds, 0.75" groups

 

22.6gr 200yds, 2" group

 

23.8 gr at 100 yds, 1.75" group

 

23.8 gr at 200 yds, 1" group

[MidwestPX 172]

I would bet that third shot of 23.8 at 100 was shanked in some way.  Try five round groups next time.  Shooting gas guns for groups is a fair bit tougher than a bolt gun.

[MartyZ 692]

Thanks Ty. Seeing as how there was no sign of over pressure, should I try to increase the charge above the listed max or should I leave well enough alone?

[MartyZ 692]

Ok, I know this is an old thread but i'm still working on my reloads. Still using 8208 XBR, not satisfied with the max recommended load of 23.8gr, I started loading up in 0.2gr increments until 24.4gr. Went back out to the range on Sunday with my new magnetospeed just to see what I get. Just a reminder, this is out of a 20" .223 Wylde barrel. I went thru 23.8gr, 24gr, 24.2gr, and 24.4gr loads, not a single piece of evidence of over pressure for either load but the 24.4gr gave me the best groups, I could probably go higher but I don't want to push my luck.

 

Here it is at 100yds, I think that is pretty good, with a few flyers of course

 

Now the speeds I got is a little concerning to me because the spread was somewhat large in my view:

 

These are all 10 shot groups (24.4gr has 2 groups)

23.8gr       Min. 2792, Max. 2832, Avg 2807, Spread 40, SD 12.2

24gr          Min. 2833, Max. 2886, Avg 2847, Spread 53, SD 17.8

24.2gr       Min. 2838, Max. 2925, Avg 2864, Spread 87, SD 23.7 

24.4gr       Min. 2870, Max. 2926, Avg 2905, Spread 56, SD 18.0

24.4gr       Min. 2864, Max. 2946, Avg 2905, Spread 82, SD 28.5 

 

So, what say the experts, do I stay at 24.4gr or do I dial it down a bit?

[MidwestPX 172]

Check your primer pockets.  If they loosened up, dial it down.  You've got good velocity and good performance at 24.4 so wrecking the brass is really the only reason I can come up with to dial it down.  While I was doing my load development, I found that if I kept to Lake City or TAA brass, my primer pockets were fine but if I used commercial brass such as PMC, I'd lose 20%ish due to loosened primer pockets.

[MartyZ 692]

I am using PMC brass, but I just checked and I can't push the primer out by hand just using the depriming pin on it's own, so i'm guessing the primer pocket is still tight. But like you said, I might lose some life in the brass over the long run. But I think if I get 4 or 5 reloads out of it then I should be good. Thanks.

[Rob0115 1,105]

Get a pound of 8208 XBR. I had the same issue with H4895 which is a little longer stick than Varget. After switching to 8208 XBR, I haven't looked back. It meters great in my Dillon (+/-.1gr), doesn't bridge the case mouth, and it's completely temperature insensitive like Varget and H4895.

 

Quite a few folks, including the author of the Grendel reloading book, are recommending 8208 over H4895 for .223, 6x45 and 6.5 Grendel.  I am going to try some myself when I run down my supply and will also try it in my 6mmAR.

 

Would you compare it to N140?

[MidwestPX 172]

Quite a few folks, including the author of the Grendel reloading book, are recommending 8208 over H4895 for .223, 6x45 and 6.5 Grendel.  I am going to try some myself when I run down my supply and will also try it in my 6mmAR.

 

Would you compare it to N140?

I can't say as I've never used N140.  For anything smaller than .30 caliber where H4895 is being recommended, I can't imagine not using 8208 instead.  The shorter cut powder has far less chance of bridging the casemouth and making a mess which is priceless for progressive presses.