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If you use your gun this is what you're up against.

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One thing for sure she walked away with in the end was her life. That can't be replaced.

True. Her life can't be replaced - but will her life be the same after she killed someone?

 

If she would have stayed in her car she would also still have her life and she would have no legal trouble either. The only difference is she wouldn't have a TV.

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I think you guys are missing some valid points. I don't think anyone will shed a tear over this situation except the homeowner who is going to be sued into poverty. A legal shoot does not make you immune from getting shredded in a civil lawsuit.

It does in many states, and I believe Florida is one of them. It also does in PA. In PA, they could actually take you to court and waste a little of your money, but it is a certain defense and the case will be dismissed. In the majority of Stand Your Ground states they won't even accept a lawsuit. Elements of SYG are usually no duty to retreat under certain circumstances, fear for life/injury/etc. is presumed under the circumstances (and may need to be proven otherwise before a criminal case can proceed), and no civil liability. You may be surprised, this also comes up often under Castle Doctrine (your house and improvements) and may even apply in Jersey (I don't know). But I am pretty sure it applies in Florida.

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Again, I thought there was a requirement of immediacy to apply Castle Doctrine/SYG to self defense situations.

 

Does driving home from a place of safety to confront a potential burglar in your empty house qualify as standing your ground?

 

I am under the assumption, and I may be wrong here, that standing your ground means just that. Stand YOUR ground with no duty to retreat which I fully endorse. I did not think it was permission to chase down someone who committed a property crime.

 

Being home and attempting to detain a burglar while awaiting police after committing theft (completely valid and appropriate) and the situation becomes violent and you end up killing them in self defense is a very different situation than what we have here (based on media reports).

 

Let me be clear, once the confrontation turned violent I agree with her choice to defend herself and the manner in which she did it - she had every right as its better to be alive in court than dead in the ground. I am questioning her decision making process prior to confronting this guy.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate - In this instance, if she did in fact chase him down and started the altercation while he was attempting to flee the scene (having just committed a property crime in the very recent past, but was currently breaking no laws) and he ended up killing her, was he standing his ground?

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Sorry Frank. We'll have to agree to disagree. I go with the flow as far as laws are concerned. I don't have any Goody-Two-Shoes left in me. I've seen too much in my 56 years. As far as I'm concerned, they can all come out on platters. It's long past time to teach the Animals a lesson. The "How else can he get money for sneakers" line by the Kin is proof of an animal mindset. When a animal has rabies, you put it down.

 

In general, what you Jersey folks don't understand is beyond your comprehension due to a generation's worth of self-reliance being stripped-away along with our CCW rights. Too many of you have sat in classrooms (at a hefty fee I might add) being dictated to about what a textbook "Good Shoot" is. Truth is most are complicated and happen FAST, just like in WAR. The streets are a WAR ZONE of sorts, and the Bad Guys hope that we Good Guys stop and weigh things in our head before we do anything (like shoot their asses). In fact, they count on it. "Deer-in-the-headlight" syndrome has killed lots of Good Guys. Even well-trained Cops can freeze instead of act. It's a SURVIVAL GAME out there people. That female homeowner has to live with what she did or didn't do for the rest of her life. That's punishment enough without having to deal with all of us Monday Quarterbacks judging her after what she legally did. It's as if we're some sort of GOD panel on the moral obligations of armed man.

 

Do I have to remind everybody here about the Rules of Engagement? That if you're a hostile intruder stepping "feet-dry" onto a military plane your ass can be SHOT and your body dumped back out the door onto the tarmac even though you didn't reach for your weapon? It's the LAW, and we do this and have done it! It's PRESUMED that your entry onto US "soil" is a potentially deadly threat and so deadly force is authorized under International law. So we need to lose the "High and Mighty" "Jersey-Speak", and put on our thinking caps and learn from the rest of untainted Free America.

 

We now continue to beat this to death as part of our regularly scheduled program........

You are correct, violence occurs with a quickness that the uninitiated will never comprehend. It's not quick, clean, and choreographed like you see on television or in the movies. It's fast, brutal, and unforgiving.

 

That being said, we do not operate under rules of engagement as civilians (LE or armed citizen) CONUS. The use of deadly force in a self-defense situation is guided by Constitutionally approved Use of Force guidelines - part of which state that you cannot create the dangerous situation which precipitated the need to use deadly force in an encounter.

 

A cop can not jump in front of a speeding car and then shoot the driver under the auspice of "I feared for my life, he was going to run me over". You cannot stumble through the worst part of town at zero dark 30, pretending to be intoxicated, with hundred dollar bills falling out of your pockets, in order to lure a thug into robbing you so you can shoot him.

 

Not in the PRNJ, and not in Free America.

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You are correct, violence occurs with a quickness that the uninitiated will never comprehend. It's not quick, clean, and choreographed like you see on television or in the movies. It's fast, brutal, and unforgiving.

 

That being said, we do not operate under rules of engagement as civilians (LE or armed citizen) CONUS. The use of deadly force in a self-defense situation is guided by Constitutionally approved Use of Force guidelines - part of which state that you cannot create the dangerous situation which precipitated the need to use deadly force in an encounter.

 

A cop can not jump in front of a speeding car and then shoot the driver under the auspice of "I feared for my life, he was going to run me over".

You cannot stumble through the worst part of town at zero dark 30, pretending to be intoxicated, with hundred dollar bills falling out of your pockets,in order to lower a thug into robbing you so you can shoot him.

Be careful HE. You may get called a goody two shoes pussy and told to get off of your high horse for talking some common sense.

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Again, I thought there was a requirement of immediacy to apply Castle Doctrine/SYG to self defense situations.

Just because I know there is a burglar in my house does not mean I am not allowed to go in or have to wait for police. I am legally permitted to defend my home and my possessions, and use force to do it. I can use deadly force if I am in fear for my life. And under Castle Doctrine (although it varies state to state) it is assumed I do if somebody comes into my dwelling or onto attached improvements (such as paved driveway) with no right to be there. I can also use deadly force if I arrest them and then they flee after a felony in my presence or other offenses under both Common Law (verified repeatedly and recently by PA case law) and statute. Under case law I need not even arrest them, but I prefer to stick with statute as it seems a little safer.

 

Does driving home from a place of safety to confront a potential burglar in your empty house qualify as standing your ground?

 

I am under the assumption, and I may be wrong here, that standing your ground means just that. Stand YOUR ground with no duty to retreat which I fully endorse. I did not think it was permission to chase down someone who committed a property crime.

You have every right to chase somebody down and use force to recover your property. As stated before, that situation may suddenly chance and turn into either an ordinary deadly force self defense situation or it may change into a SYG deadly force self defense situation. Depends upon the particulars of the law in your state.

 

Being home and attempting to detain a burglar while awaiting police after committing theft (completely valid and appropriate) and the situation becomes violent and you end up killing them in self defense is a very different situation than what we have here (based on media reports).

 

Let me be clear, once the confrontation turned violent I agree with her choice to defend herself and the manner in which she did it - she had every right as its better to be alive in court than dead in the ground. I am questioning her decision making process prior to confronting this guy.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate - In this instance, if she did in fact chase him down and started the altercation while he was attempting to flee the scene (having just committed a property crime in the very recent past, but was currently breaking no laws) and he ended up killing her, was he standing his ground?

Already covered.

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True. Her life can't be replaced - but will her life be the same after she killed someone?

 

If she would have stayed in her car she would also still have her life and she would have no legal trouble either. The only difference is she wouldn't have a TV.

Then why do you have a job?

Free tv's for everyone? Like Ferguson?

The degree of protecting " stuff" is up to the morality of the individual.

 

The question is, should people be able to take others " stuff" without fear of the ultimate consequence. Now we are talking about WROL.

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# 8

"Thou shall not steal"

WTF does that have to do with anything?

# 6

"Thou shall not murder"

 

Again, I don't have a problem with this kid ceasing to be an earthly oxygen consumer. Sounds like he had it coming - if not that day, another day soon.

 

Would I be righteously pissed as a victim? You bet!

 

Would I want him to pay for violating my home? Absolutely.

 

Am I going to use deadly force against him if he is not a danger to me and mine? Nope.

 

Am I going to leave a place of safety to single handedly investigate a crime and cause the dangerous situation that could either get me hurt/killed or cause me to hurt/kill someone else over a TV? Absolutely not.

 

There is not a self defense expert on the planet that will tell you to clear a structure alone in order to protect property.

 

Quick scenario:

So, you and your whole family are at my house across town for a BBQ. We are hanging out and you get a call from ADT saying your alarm is going off. You check your home camera system on your phone and see Rufus climbing in through a window. You hop in your car and drive 10 minutes to your house after calling 911 to report the crime. You get home and see Rufus climbing out the window with your iPad in his hands. You are completely safe in your car a block away. You are saying SYG and Castle Doctrine allows you to use deadly force to keep him from running away with your stuff?

 

Say he puts the stuff down before running away - he no longer has your property. DPF (deadly physical force) is applicable?

 

Yes, I know I can use deadly force if I am in fear of death or significant bodily injury. Now, how do I prove I am in fear of a burglar if I chase him down and confront him? How afraid am I of this guy if I put my hands on him, get in his face, and demand my stuff back?

 

How afraid are you of a burglar in your empty home causing you serious bodily injury or killing you if you are across town? Or even in your car down the block?

 

I just don't see how jeopardizing my safety, risking prison time, or spending my last dollar in civil court defending my actions is worth being able to watch American Idol on my 65" flatscreen tonight.

 

There are many things in my life more precious to me that I will defend to the death or risk my freedom or fortune on before my stuff.

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HE, why weren't the police on sight before the VICTIM?

That's a great question. I guess the police were busy.  I love all the  scenarios too.  Here's the facts.  He chose to burglarize her home.  He made a choice. He chose a confrontation with a woman who had a gun who turned out to be the home owner. .  He's dead. 

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HE, why weren't the police on sight before the VICTIM?

Because alarm companies take forever to call the police from the initial alert. I have scene a typical response time of 20 to 40 minutes from activation to arrival.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

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HE, why weren't the police on sight before the VICTIM?

I don't know. I wasn't working there that day. Do you know why?

 

The IACP recommended ratio for police to residents is 2.5 officers per 1000 people. That's not working patrol at every moment, that's total department manpower spread across all shifts, including admin and non patrol division ie: traffic, detectives, etc... And includes guys on their days off.

 

If they are staffed like my agency - we have a town of ~16000 residents + 5000 people moving through town at any time between traffic, work, shopping - so figure 21000 people on days and 16000 at night. We have a minimum manpower allowance of 2 guys working patrol - do the math.

 

We can't be everywhere all the time. Maybe one of the other residents in that sector had an emergency that tied up resources. Maybe they were responding from further away than the homeowner was and she beat them there. Maybe they were on a mealbreak.

 

I do know that under Use of Force Guidelines under the 4th Amendment a cop shouldn't have shot that guy*.

 

No one is denying that the homeowner is the victim here. But, being a victim, in and of itself, is not an appropriate reason to use DPF.

 

If she saw this guy the next day ditty-bopping down the street after stealing her stuff could she confront him then and shoot him? She is still a victim. He still stole her property and knows where she lives. Maybe he will come back tomorrow and assault her and she is scared.

 

*Caveat: under those circumstances as told by the media

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Because alarm companies take forever to call the police from the initial alert. I have scene a typical response time of 20 to 40 minutes from activation to arrival.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

the alarm company i use at the shop calls me first. if no answer, then they call the police. cherry hill pd seems to average 20 minutes from the alarm company call to them being at my shop. that was 3 years ago though.....that's the last time the alarm went off.......

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That's a great question. I guess the police were busy. I love all the scenarios too. Here's the facts. He chose to burglarize her home. He made a choice. He chose a confrontation with a woman who had a gun who turned out to be the home owner. . He's dead.

Pretty much sums it up.

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You are correct, violence occurs with a quickness that the uninitiated will never comprehend. It's not quick, clean, and choreographed like you see on television or in the movies. It's fast, brutal, and unforgiving.

 

That being said, we do not operate under rules of engagement as civilians (LE or armed citizen) CONUS. The use of deadly force in a self-defense situation is guided by Constitutionally approved Use of Force guidelines - part of which state that you cannot create the dangerous situation which precipitated the need to use deadly force in an encounter.

 

A cop can not jump in front of a speeding car and then shoot the driver under the auspice of "I feared for my life, he was going to run me over". You cannot stumble through the worst part of town at zero dark 30, pretending to be intoxicated, with hundred dollar bills falling out of your pockets, in order to lure a thug into robbing you so you can shoot him.

 

Not in the PRNJ, and not in Free America.

LOL, I threw-out the Rules of Engagement just to show that for centuries the mere presence of an armed adversary from a foreign Goobermint was sufficient to warrant a deadly response.  

 

This form of teletype transmission leaves lots to the imagination and I have arthritis so I can't type "War and Peace" to completely give 100% correct answers.  You and I agree on 99.9% of this incident report.  As a LEO trained in NJ you're at somewhat of a disadvantage in that you're not used to dealing with an armed response prior to your arrival.  Percentage-wise it's not the norm.  Having the Public chase, corner, confront, room-clear or anything else is always regarded as a bad omen.  Granted some are better trained than others, but in-general you are correct that the public should refrain from "looking for trouble".  If trouble finds them however, then the "Games A-foot"....  Also obviously correct in that it's not legal to cause an incident to happen just so you as a homeowner can shoot a Perp.  It's in those magic, priceless few seconds of confrontation that the truth lies and what ultimately led to the shooting.  As I said before, it wasn't a mag dump and a reload.

 

Whether or not the Perp's estate sues her yet remains to be seen.  But a Rap Sheet as long as your arm and your own relatives sayin' on TV, "How else is he supposed to get sneaker and clothes money" would look too obvious to a jury (sarcasm off).

 

Have a nice rest of the week sir and be careful out there.

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In South Africa, the crime is pretty bad. Most people have iron gates on their interior bedroom doors. When an intruder enters their home, they remain locked in their bedrooms until after the house has been looted and the intruders have left.

 

If thats how we are expected to act, we have a problem. If someone has entered my home, and I feel I'm equipped and capable of clearing the house and confronting the intruders, i intend to do it. I'm not waiting until they stumble across me or my family. And yeah, I'll call or have my wife call 911 if there's a chance there is actually someone in the house.

 

If that's considered "looking for trouble" then so be it.

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^^^Kevin, you and I are cut from the same bolt of cloth.  I'll call it in after I clear the house.  They can come and take pictures and try to interview me while I ask for an ambulance for my racing heart beat.

 

FWIW decades ago I interrupted a break-in at my back door, with a loud scream at the Perp / Drunk trying to gain access.  Don't know if it was the scream or racking the 12 ga. that broke the language barrier.  To this day I don't care.  I never fired a shot, never saw the Perp's face, so I had ZERO description of him/her.  Never called it in since I live on a highway and whomever had already ran-off.  I decided against patrolling my foundation perimeter while armed since the break-in was thwarted (I witnessed the Perp run from my back steps, over a cement divider K-Rail and across a 4-lane highway, so I figured he/she wasn't going to re-visit THAT mistake).  That night I went to bed w/ my .357, flashlight and a 12 ga.  It was "HANDLED".......  Couple weeks later I mentioned it to a Cop that's a neighbor of mine.  He asked if anything was taken, door broken, or anything to report, and I said no.  He shrugged his shoulders and said he hoped the guy shit his pants.  We both laughed.  That was about 25 years ago.  I don't consider what I did that night to be "looking for trouble"..........

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TLB?

 

.50. The only time I' had to clear my house so to speak, was I guess about 10 years ago. Maybe less. I had an aluminum bat as my tool for that job. No one was in the house. Kids were ok. Never figured out what it was that I heard. I'm pretty sure I could have done a better job of it. I just checked the kids, then the places I thought someone might be between me and where I thought the bang came from. And then for the source of the sound.

 

Heart was pounding. I was, and still am, someone who needs more training for that task.

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FACT: bad guy shot and killed while committing a crime

FACT: bad guy will no longer be committing criminal acts, reproduce or tie up courts with trivial crap only to be let go (again?)

FACT: other bad guys may learn from this and the crime rate in that area may go down

 

Whats the problem? How did this thread get to 5 pages?

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FACT: bad guy shot and killed while committing a crime

FACT: bad guy will no longer be committing criminal acts, reproduce or tie up courts with trivial crap only to be let go (again?)

FACT: other bad guys may learn from this and the crime rate in that area may go down

 

Whats the problem? How did this thread get to 5 pages?

Keyboard commandos who don't understand the 2A, and the natural right to defend one's self and property.

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