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Pump the brakes there for a second Howard. Your second paragraph is complete BS on many levels. "Militirization" comment aside, there is a lot of either supposition due to inexperience or deliberate misinformation there. I have shot in to, and out from, a lot of cars in training - through windows and door panels with a lot of different ammo. All things being equal, .40 pierced auto glass and doors no better, and no worse, than 9mm. There is no advantage there. ARs suck as well. Especially with the soft point rounds most agencies issue to help reduce penetration in typical CONUS construction materials. Additionally, full auto capability has jack and squat to do with penetration abilities either. If you want to skin a car, you grab the 12 gauge. The same gun Cops have being carrying in their cars for ages. Hell, the potential to be in a gun fight around cars is the only reason I still put one in my patrol car every night. Cops are moving to 9mm because bullet technology has made the terminal effects of 9mm and .40 almost indistinguishable. While the 9mm gives a higher capacity and has less felt recoil (yes it's a subjective measurement, but it is almost universally accepted) in a similar sized pistol. There is just a very slight advantage on the terminal effect end with modern .45. Some argue that slight ballistic advantage isn't worth the disadvantages of the lower capacity and the increase in felt recoil (again subjective but almost universally accepted) all in a larger gun. If I told you I could give you a gun that is easier to shoot/train with, easier to teach new shooters on, that holds more rounds, has less recoil, and will give your faster split times all in a gun the same size as the one you are holding and still guarantee that the terminal ballistics would not decrease, would you say no thanks? Neither are the cops.

I'll start with saying I never had any love for the 40 S&W. Most on this forum are too young to know the story how the 40 S&W came about. The FBI was using the 10mm a few years before it was officially adopted. I remember going on jobs with the FBI and some guys had 10mm S&Ws and 10mm MP5s in the mid 80s. The FBI started looking for a new standard handgun in the early 80s. They conducted their tests. The winner? Ready? 45 ACP! The FBI knew they couldn't go to Capitol Hill asking for money for new guns in a caliber another bigger part of government was abandoning. How could they justify going to a 45 when DOD was going for a 9mm. Reasons don't mean anything to Congress, most of which don't know anything about firearms. So the FBI went to adopt the #2 in their tests the 10mm. It didn't take them long to realize full power 10mm was too much. Not only for agents but for the guns. The full size S&Ws were having frame cracking problems. To alleviate this, plus buy time to pick a new gun and caliber, the FBI adopted a downloaded 10mm ammo that would reliably function the gun they had. They also started buying 3" Model 13 S&W 357s. They actually started doing this earlier as an option for agents who preferred a revolver. Agents were armed with them at the Miami Shootout in 86. It was actually one of these revolvers that ended the fight. 9mm Silvertip performed as it was supposed to and was not a failure IMO. That's another discussion though. Now we're in the late 80s. S&W have been selling 39s and 59s to a variety of LE agencies for almost 10 years. They flocked to the 9mm and American made (S&W) in the 80s. 45 was considered "too powerful". Few agencies wanted a caliber with "magnum" in the name. Ammo manufacturers catered to that by calling what they sold as "high velocity" as +P and created +P+ first for Treasury and now for everyone else. Again that's another story. S&W executed a brilliant engineering and marketing ploy. They realized they could duplicate the ballistics of the FBI 10mm load in a shorter case. More importantly the shorter case fit in the 9mm frames and slides. LE agencies sucked up the 40 as not only was it marginally more powerful than the 9mm but new S&W 40s fit the same holsters and mag pouches as the 9mms they had. IMO the 40 is not a great improvement over the 9mm. If I want something bigger I'll take a 45 thank you. I was sold on the 45 20 years before the 40 came out. It won't become as rare as the 357 SIG or 45 GAP. The 357 SIG is a 9mm magnum. If I need those ballistics I'll use a 357 magnum and be more versatile. The 45 GAP was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The 40 S&W was more an effective marketing exercise for S&W. Never owned one, never will.

I'd like to thank everyone for they're replies. I for one am enjoying everyone's post and am learning a lot.

The reason for the fall of .40, the end of the stigma of 9mm.

I don't think anyone should have an issue with police being able to have access to AR's, and Remington 700's.... as long as they don't carry RPGs and Cannons, we are a ok. =)

Personally, I don't think you're reading too much into it at all! This meshes with the tendency to "bury" defensive gun use stories entirely. They rarely make it to major newspapers or networks. And in a case like this, where it's someone "famous" and the story simply can't be buried, so-called "journalists" do the next best thing - cast shade on the person who defended themselves (from the safety of their keyboard when they can't possibly even imagine the duress the person was under)..

I think that NJ doesn't distinguish between open and concealed carry. If you have a carry permit you can either carry open or concealed.

.45 and 9mm cover all the bases now in terms of a weapon. Thanks to advances in the world of polymer and alloys we have (depending on application) ultra compact/ lightweight/ thinner (think grip) guns firing 9mm. On the other end of the spectrum, while there are concealable .45's, I feel that they shine in the "duty" size gun. We now have capacities that close the gap with 9mm counterparts (13+1 Glock 21, 15+1 FNX45). Also, the .45s benefit from a weight reduction, loaded 1911 = ~44 oz and a loaded G21 is about 38 oz. You definitely feel that on a duty rig or belt. In regards to both calibers, I feel that firearm manufacturers have taken such a focus on ergonomics that weather recoil is actually reduced or not, shooters perceive less recoil and more positive control. The .40 was, and is, a compromise round. I think we have seen in recent years that the 9mm JHP loadings have proven themselves virtually equal in REAL WORLD performance.

I own only one hand gun in .40 Short and Weak: A 2011 Para P-16 that was gifted to me from my sister in-law upon my brother's passing. My brother used it for USPSA Limited Division, and loaded for it on his Dillon 1050 so he could make a PF of 170 to make "Major" PF. The metal gun handles the recoil quite well, and the 2011 chassis is well suited to the task. 180 grain Ball FP factory ammo also runs it fine, and the single-action 2011 (double-stack) tames it well. That all being said, I have LOTS of friends that buy Tupperware striker-fired hand guns and bitch about the snappiness and always shooting low and left (classic striker group location). Compact models chambered in this round are even more susceptible to "snappiness", making follow-up shots that much harder, especially for the inexperienced shooter. Will the .40 Short and Weak disappear? No! There's still a great market for it in carbines that use pistol mags, especially in knockdown steel matches where the extra weight and mass of the round enables a wider target area on the plates (low hits still knock the steel plates over) I do think that the Tupperware makers have already figured-out that the used market is flooded with .40's that are "too snappy", so they aren't in a rush to tool-up every new offering in that caliber...

5-4 peruta. phone calls are being made. Ginsburg wheeled towards the landing of a long flight of stairs. My prediction

I feel sorry for Mrs.Zeke most days.

Just caught this. Only valid today. Berry's plated pistol bullets are also on sale. Use code 17CLUB516

Howard, you said "full militarization of police". Having a long relationship with LE and the military the "full militarization of police" is way far from reality.

I think you have your terms mixed up. This is not an AOW. An AOW (Any Other Weapon) is a Title II (NFA) classification for a firearm with a length less than 26" and a barrel less than 18". The Shockwave is a Title I firearm because the length is over 26".

That it is a lesser round.

This is what the forum is all about when we don't complain about crooked Democrats or discuss the situation of Pork Roll? vs Taylor Ham. =P

The one-year anniversary was probably the justification used during the pitch meeting, but this is really anti-gun sentiment masquerading as a sports piece. Check out the author's website: http://www.jeffpearlman.com/guns-and-courage-and-cowardice/

Okay, the militarization of police gambit. You want police to be able to respond to something like the LA bank robbers clad in body armor or a Mubai or Paris type terrorist attack. They need rifles. No time to call out the SWAT team. A shotgun, 9mm, 45, or even a 38 (not a std velocity lead bullet) do well on car doors and windows. I concur with HE's statement.

No the article's author is a shithead. There's no reading too much into it. Some dude broke down a reinforced door to gain entry. It's a big dude capable of exerting lethal force unarmed, and in all likelihood significantly bigger and stronger than the occupant of the residence. Also stupid enough, sdrunk enough, or malicious enough to not notice they are in the wrong place. BEYOND that if this WAS his girlfriends apartment, and he did the exact same thing, I think SHE would be justified in shooting his ass too. That behavior isn't universal sign language for "hey baby, I could use a hug." The occupant took more than seconds to make a decision. They made the decision to stand their ground in their bedroom rather than inside their front door. They gave the asshole free run of the place except for behind locked door number two. The drunk asshole didn't get the message at locked door number two. What more could have happened? Drunk asshole would get a clue suddenly somewhere between the door and the bed? The occupant would have recognized him and been pleased to get an NBA official autographed ass kicking, possibly fatal?

You are definitely not reading too much into it, as the others have pointed out, don't lose control of yourself to the point that you made stupid choices and do stupid things. Was this a tragedy, absolutely. But, being wasted and banging on doors then breaking in to a locked apartment is just plain asking for trouble. This is what happens when you combine drugs, alcohol and a feeling of entitlement that comes from being an elite athlete and having things given to you your entire life. I am not an expert in any way shape or form, but from what the experts I know have told me a millisecond of second guessing is more than enough time to get yourself killed. Look at this from the teacher's perspective, a loud, large, incoherent person has already broken down a locked and bolted main door and is now trying to break down your bedroom door. How would anyone expect a rational human being to behave. Yes, hindsight shows that he thought it was his girlfriend's apartment, but all the teacher know was that a big man was breaking into his apartment. Journalists need to sell stories and or support an agenda that sells stories, they no longer worry about factual, unbiased reporting.

Don't drink and smoke dope if you can't handle it. That's the moral to the story AFAIC. The guy broke down one door and from the story found himself in an empty room. He was so drunk (like .18) mixed with the effects of marijuana he didn't realize it wasn't his girlfriend's apartment. He then proceeded knock down the second door. Just about all of us have gotten drunk celebrating something. But not so drunk we didn't realize where we were. Something like this would have happened to this guy eventually with his alcohol and drug problem. The article fails to speculate on that. They want to get more mileage from "this young man with a promising future" than discuss his alcohol and drug problem.

GRIZ, sorry... but some of your information is wrong. The FBI officially adopted the 10mm in late 1989. S&W 10mms did not start being produced until 1990. H&K didn't produce a MP5 in 10mm or .40 until 1991. So, hard to work with guys in the 1980s using guns that weren't produced until the 1990s. In regards to testing, if .45 was so applauded prior to 1986, how come it wasn't issued (even Thompsons were declared obsolete by that time)? Some agents were carrying semi-autos up through 1986, but after the shootout, the FBI allowed all agents to carry them (9mm SIGs) until their transition was complete (and also between the 1076 and Glock). It is weird, being 1911s were allowed for a lot of the early FBI years, in both .38 Super and .45. In regards to revolvers used in the shootout, only one agent was allowed to carry .357 Magnum; McNeill (I'll have to check my books at home, but not 100% that he even loaded .357 Magnums). All other agents shooting revolvers were shooting .38 +P, including the two ankle guns and Mireles' revolver, who was the last agent to put rounds into the suspects. Mireles was carrying a 586, which is a .357 revolver, but loaded .38s per regulations. If you read Anderson's book on the shooting, there are a lot of personal accounts made by a few of the surviving agents that put it all into perspective... being "outgunned," "poor shot placement," and "calibers not doing the job." Mireles talks specifically about not carrying something that could result in his termination from the FBI. I would also hesitate to say Mireles ended the fight... being Platt was probably bleeding out inside the car. Most doctors, looking at the 9mm wound that Dove is credited for, feel that if Platt surrendered right after that wound, and was rushed directly to the hospital... he still would have died. Mireles was probably running just on adrenaline, so nobody can fault him at emptying his revolver into the car, as he walked past his fellow agents, both injured and deceased. In regards to the S&W 10mm series, I've yet to hear about or see cracked stainless 10mm frames, which is what all of them were built on. There were issues with the SIG style decockers, which were recalled (also were changes in the magazine followers during that time), but never was a widely accepted feature on Third Generation guns (these were most of the complaints, as well as a 9-shot stainless pistol not being the best for carrying in certain roles). I also wouldn't expect them getting the round counts of full power 10mm through them, moving to the lighter loading, and switching to SIG for a short period before going to the .40 Glocks in 1997... Owning a 1006, I'm definitely calling BS on that statement, as the S&W, while no longer supported by S&W, is known for taking true 10mm power like a champ. But if you have information that I haven't seen, by all means, share it. The whole movement to 10mm was due to the results of 9mm in that shootout. Can't be cut any other way. When a slug stops short of a suspect's heart, even if it was a fatal shot (it was), and that person seriously injures three agents (another was slightly injured, and another was uninjured) and kills two... that is a problem. At that time (mid-1980s), ammo technology wasn't what it is now. So a bigger bullet, with more energy (only mass and velocity are variables in that equation), was the solution. It was an identical solution back when the .38 didn't do the job against the Moros in the Philippines... which lead to the .45 ACP. .40 works good for barricade penetration, so agencies will continue to use it. But if you look at wounds, 9mm (today) does a lot more closer to .40 or .45. All common handgun rounds are very similar with performance... stink. In actuality, the job of the handgun is to get you to a long gun. It is a compromise, you are losing cartridge effectiveness to gain the ability to carry it on your person. A .45/.40/10mm/9mm/.357/.38 isn't changing that... carry what you are comfortable with or what you are allowed/have to. The .40 discussion is always looked at using today's ammo, instead of what was available when it was originally introduced. I like .40... because it is something different. I have two M&Ps in it (5" Pro and a Compact), as well as a SUB-2000 Gen 2 (takes the M&P magazines). If there is an ammo shortage, I'll still be able to get .40 when everyone is trying to stock up on 9mm or .45. So, yea... .40 sucks. Go get rid of those guns, and buy up .45. Try not to buy 9mm guns... those suck to, especially since I have a SIG P938 and S&W 642-1 converted for 9mm. I like carrying those, so help keep those two calibers in stock and buy .45. Actually, I have a Glock 30S... so, the .45 now sucks, as well. Go with a .357 Magnum. Don't have any guns chambered in it. But stay away from .44 Magnum. Too little power... go .460 or .500 (seriously, .460 has a lot more versatility... as you can shoot .454 Casull and .45 Colt).

You are in for an experience like none other with the LEM trigger. That being said, the one I learned on was a v2 which has a heavier pull. It is a trigger that rewards good discipline. It took me some practice to get quick enough with it to feel very confident.

Call the chief ask him why the fuck they aren't doing their job. Call the mayor ask them why the chief isn't doing theirs. Some dude's on disability, doesn't mean their frequent revenue generating checkpoints go away.

From friends at TheRightReasons.net

Never owned a .40 and never will. Hopefully it disappears so there's more room on the shelf for 9mm and 45 rounds at the gun store

In case you couldn't tell, I think this is a positive thing and Station is a great example of how a healthy marriage works. The individual Stations are capable and intelligent but need to have an eye kept on them. On their own they are important contributing members of their little group that support each other. But when the 2 become one - Big Station is stronger, smarter, more confident, and gets shit done way better and more efficiently than they did apart.

Looks like a tremendous movie... I saw her at yankee stadium with Rex a couple of years ago. Arod was tasked to give her an award and her was terrified of Rex. Dogs are great judges of character.

The .45 is so easy to control so I think they like that aspect of it. I do too...along with my 10mm.

They ought to stop spending our money on this money grabbing crap. When they start finding them all shot up they will wonder why. Fuck those cameras!

At the very least, I got a good wallet thanks to this thread. Thanks bhunted!

Abstemious(ly). Looked it up I'll address some points Rosey has made as well. YUGE difference between answering a question, explaining the law, and actually ratting on someone or telling them they're going to prison or hell or whatever. YUGE. Some people are natural born "lawyers." They love the nitty gritty, the fine print. A section of their brain is devoted to such things. That doesn't necessarily make them "narcs." Everybody in this forum obeys these silly laws to the extent that they are comfortable doing so. Some follow them religiously, others don't. Someone "up there" recently confided to me that he couldn't care less if I carried a gun in public without a NJ permit. Yet this person follows the law to the letter and if you asked this person about the law he/she will recite chapter and verse, almost verbatim. I see no contradiction, not a hint of hypocrisy. You don't put a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger for fun because you're 100% sure it's not loaded do you? I mean unless you inhabit a fantasy universe you can prove 100% it's not loaded so why not joke around like that? Because the consequences of being wrong, however ridiculously small those odds may be, are pretty horrible. Spending 10 years getting ass raped is pretty f-ing horrible as well. So even though the odds are overwhelming that nobody will know, and you won't get 10 years even if they do, it's reason enough -- at least in a public forum -- to be a pussy about such things.

Lots to talk about lol but I"ll stick to one issue. If you work outside use sunscreen protection! I was mostly outside for 35 yrs and contrary to youthful exuberence we are not invincible. I thought I was but have recently, past 5 yrs or so, been routinely cut up, sliced,burned, frozen.....currently have a dozen stitches in my neck, again...melanoma, basil/ squamus cell, AK, have and had all. All on neck and face. Fortunatly I never worked with my shirt off so not by design I'm good there. Keep some sunscreen in your truck, car even your toolbox lol, and use it. It can take many yrs for skin cancer to develop, that peeling burn you got last July can come back to haunt you 10-30 yrs later. Next, blood pressure. Watch and maintain, get meds if needed, they changed my life no more chronic headaches. Thats all for today.

An update. Count me in. I plan to attend. See you all there.

This. I've witnessed 2 different instances where a prominent NJ RKBA advocates came in and left in disgust at the combination of negativity "You're not doing enough / Your strategies suck" and apathy "Nah, I'm not contributing to that effort, it's a waste of time". This place even recently pissed Anthony Colandro off, and he's no softy from what I can tell. I don't bother trying to drum up support for the orgs I belong to in here.

I have seen 2A groups come here and some members seem to do their best to drive them away with negative attitude towards anything the pro 2A folks are trying to do.

They do come here..........Then we chase them away!

I am rather enjoying watching Mrs. Zeke slap her husband around. I just hope my wife doesn't decide to join this board, and get some ideas....

Bullshit! I am even a better shot with your guns. Jus sayin

Natch.

I carry wherever I am legally allowed to. Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.

Mrs Peel, not to worry. I've met Zeke and Mrs Zeke socially and Mrs Zeke is very adept at keeping him under control.

Sorry, Tex. I do feel sorry for her. In fact, I weep for her. Can you just imagine how much energy it takes to keep The Zeeker under control and out of trouble? Oy vey.

Get a VEPR 12 and call it a day.