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This has been discussed before. Don't use birdshot for HD. Yes, it might work but has shallow penetration. Shooting melons proves it is good on melons not SD. Use buckshot for HD.

Crossbows were the hot item then. Easier to train than archers. Such an "assault weapon" of its time the Pope made it illegal to use crossbows against Christians.

My opinion is that you are looking at this the wrong way. 1) SxS type guns will kick more. If recoil is a consideration, the absolutely go to a Semi auto shotgun, specially something gas operated. They are vastly softer in feel, more on that in a second 2) Pump guns and SxS have the same issue, no recoil attenuation from the action. 3) 20ga guns tend to be lighter then 12ga guns as for some reason many companies build them on reduced size receivers, thinner barrels, etc , they end up being lighter and feeling like a 12ga when shot due to lack of mass. My wife's 20ga 870 feel like it has more recoil then my 12ga 500. 4) specialty loads like low recoils self defense loads are more common in 12ga then 20ga and usually a lot cheaper. For all the reasons above, if you or yours are recoils sensitive AND want a shotgun for home defense, get a semi-auto 12ga, it will be the better easier package to use. Or better yet, get a rifle.

But on the upside the latest Guns & Ammo had three, count'em 3, articles on suppressors. But they all advise to just file the paperwork and hope for the best with the HPA. Of course, not in NJ, however. We should get a tax rebate since only 90% of the bill of rights apply.

Because there's never a wrong time for a "feel good" story! This guy's got a spot in heaven with his name on it, for sure... http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cop-adopts-8-year-old-he-rescued-from-severe-child-abuse/ar-BBDviHM?ocid=spartandhp

Purpose of a 410 is for small game. You can defend yourself with a 410 just like you can with a 22 rf but neither would be the best choice. A 20 gauge is not much less than a 12. I have a couple of sxs including a 12 gauge coach gun. I don't think the recoil is that bad. However, I would suggest a 20 gauge pump for an all around gun. Mossbergs can be had for under 300 just a little more than the Savage and NEF Chinese imports (which are pretty decent).

More mags = more better. Zeke, since you are keeping track: Mesa OK SERPA bad More mags is always more better.

lol. They wear out. Thought HRC would get elected...

Good for you! Don't let that young pup land a punch. Just bury him in knowledge.

The downsides to a Mini 14 are they are less accurate than ARs and they don't have the accessory availability. Ballistics are all the same. A Mini 14 is really a modern version of the M1 carbine. I would not feel unarmed with a Mini 14 (much better armed than with a 410 btw) but if I had a choice I'd take an AR/M16/M4 into a fight. In my case, it's because I've used them for nearly 50 years and have used them in serious social situations. They've always worked for me. Many of the stories you hear about the failures of the 5.56 and the AR design are just that, stories.

Anything you shoot indoors that is generally considered to be an acceptable self defense round will penetrate CONUS construction materials. Your safe backstop in a self defense shooting is the bad guy. If you miss, the round will go and penetrate whatever it hits - that's true for rifle, shotgun, and pistol ammo. FBI, ATF, and DEA Studies show that 5.56/.223 designed for indoor use (ex: Fed TRU 62gr soft nose) have less potential to seriously injure or kill than just about any other platform - after penetrating most modern US construction. That's not to say the projectile is incapable of killing someone after going through a wall, but it will have less energy and mass. Do your research. As far as Mini-14 v AR, there's a reason that very few people tasked with the possibility of shooting people as a job description carry an AR of some type vs a Mini. Again, due diligence and proper research will keep you informed and happy with your purchase.

We were peeing on socks and tying them to our face. Works pretty good with chlorine but not so good with mustard gas.

Lol! No that has nothing to do with Griz. Thats from an old thread here where a member was stating that WW1 trench warfare tactics with a 1911 and combat knife were superior to modern SWAT/CQB/FISH tactics when it came to defending your home.

You need better friends

Redneck Mini-Blinds … This one is new to me and oh so practical….. who would have thought? Redneck Mini-Blinds … No need to clean or dust -- just tear off and flush. And you can buy them in several colors and ‘textures'

The wife and I headed over to sedge island for a little bit of clamming ,

Tyrone was having trouble in school; his teacher was always yelling at him, "You're driving me crazy, Tyrone; can't you learn anything? One day Tyrone's mother came to school to see how he was doing. The teacher told her honestly that her son was simply a disaster, getting very low marks, and that she had never had such an unmotivated and ignorant boy in her entire teaching career. Tyrone's mom, shocked at the feedback, withdrew her son from school and moved out of Detroit, relocating to Cleveland. 25 years later, the teacher was diagnosed with irreversible cardiac disease. Her doctors all strongly advised her to have open heart surgery, which only one surgeon at the Cleveland Clinic could perform. Left with no other options, the teacher decided to have the operation, which was remarkably successful. When she opened her eyes after the surgery she saw the handsome young doctor who headed her surgical team smiling down at her. She wanted to thank him, but could not talk. Her face started to turn blue, she raised her hand, trying to tell him something, but quickly died. The doctor was shocked, wondering what went wrong so suddenly. When the doctor turned around to leave the room, he saw Tyrone, now a janitor at the Clinic, had unplugged the life-support equipment in order to plug in his vacuum cleaner. > If you thought that Tyrone had become a heart-surgeon, there is a high likelihood that you voted for Hillary.

Ya but, it's jus the springs bud. Lips can be smacked around

My Father peed into a water-cooled .30 in Italy during Po Valley campaign. Didn't worry about the rust, just trying to kill Krauts!

Grand Master Griz "All hail, Griz, all hail Griz!"

They'd say that we traded a lot of freedom for a mirage of security. They'd say that they worked really hard to be clear and unwavering in their distrust of any government. Yet a significant portion of the citizenry has abdicated everything to the yoke of entitlements. They'd say that democracy is based on stake holders self determining their course. Not on the increasing majority with no stake, determining the course of everyone for their own handouts. They'd say a lot of things. But mostly they'd be reloading.

That's really the issue. The interpretation of the 2nd. Even though our esteemed Zeke thinks it was written with no daylight, it is interpreted every day by courts and prosecutors every day. Believe it or not you have to take into account historical context, textual context, intent of the framers and of course grammar. Every single attempt to infringe on our rights is unconstitutional when examined in the above light. First, rights belong to people. Never states or any government agency. The constitution always confers rights to people and powers to states and gov't entities. So understanding that the historical context of the document was an atmosphere of distrust of the federal anything they were making sure the fed didn't override the state's self determination. Therefore the 10th. Because the states were very concerned about fighting out of one tyranny only to be replaced by another. However, the framers were "natural scientists" that believed that the rights of the people came from God or nature, never granted by anyone. Whereas the king of England ruled over subjects by divine right. The constitution was written in a specific and exact manner to enumerate this belief. Second, the historical context of "well-regulated" is starkly different from what we think it means today. It's not that the militia should be "regulated", much less the right to bear arms, think of that phrase as "proper"... "A proper militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." They were setting out the justification of why the people had the rtkaba. Make no mistake, when they wrote "free" they were talking about people, not a state as a government entity. They then wrote the only part of the clause that was actually law, the important bit... "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The common usage of commas at the time almost renders the entire clause gibberish. So in plain modern language it would be written, imho: "Because a militia protects the ability of a free people to protect themselves from tyranny, people have the unalienable right to bear arms, and no entity has the power to infringe on that right" I would then add "since the only reason a government would infringe on that is to subjugate its people." I'm not making this up as it is a matter of intense debate amongst constitutional scholars. Additionally, in the very early 1900's the congress ruled that the "militia" is every able bodied man, 17-45 years of age in the country. It's called the Dick Act. Really. It mostly organizes the national guard like the regular army and mentions that the unorganized militia as everyone. The tinfoil crowd screams that the definition of a proper militia is that every able bodied man must maintain arms. That's a stretch, but nevertheless it does establish that the 2nd has nothing to do with hunting, target practice or any such shit. It was for suppression of tyranny and protection of the homeland. Pure and simple. But what do I know, not much. Taking a blasé security attitude by using Tapatalk Pro

Thank you all for the great insight. I may have to find a gunshow or two to see what's available. I actually don't mind bluing being worn, dings & scratches in the wood, etc. I actually prefer it. I restore old American axes as a hobby and am fond of the "history" imparted on objects. I purchased a beautiful new Best Made Company axe for $350 last year and it's still sitting in the crate- I'm using a 60 year old Plumb axe instead. Anyone looking to trade an old shotgun for a shiny new axe?! Sounds like I'll be passing on the sxs initially and making it my second purchase down the line. As a point of reference, I have looked at various ARs and found that a Ruger mini 14 feels much better in hand to me. My biggest concern with these guns is that I live in a townhouse with neighbors to either side of me and am wary of overpenetration. That is another reason why I was looking at the 410s/20s. I looked at the cost of shells and am amazed by how expensive the 410 stuff is compared to 20. I plan on getting to the range quite a bit with it and would rather spend the money on time practicing vs just paying for the ammo. keep 'em coming, and again, thanks!

He's funny for 110

I think they came up with a better way as if you weren't well hydrated you'd be screwed if you couldn't pee on demand.

i know a lot of people are steering you away from the sxs, but if your going to only have one shotgun a pump is the best all around option. you cant go wrong with a mossberg 500, which is my personal preference, or a remington 870 12ga is so common that ill echo what Vlad G said on going 12 over 20 i keep federal low recoil 00 buck in mine. birdshot is well, for the birds

One of the only times TWD had accurate gunplay was in the first season of Fear when Daniel shoots the zombie in the face from a few yards away with birdshot and ends up blowing it's face off but of course not penetrating the skull to kill it. I believe he ends up knocking it over and shooting it point blank thru the mouth. Of course it's a T.v. show but I thought this was a perfect example of not using birdshot Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I read a testimony to the 870 durability a few years ago. A guy had a 870 he used for years to shoot trap and skeet and he was a meticulous record keeper. His 870 started to give him feeding problems. Never missed a beat before. He sent it back to Remington for a fix and researched his records. He had fired over 500,000 rounds through that gun. Maybe not the norm but an example. I've found that a $6 can of quality matte black barbeque spray paint does wonders for the worn finish of a utility shotgun. Degrease well and be careful and it looks great. Pretty durable and easy to touch up.

Agreed Zeke and an AR is my first pick for HD. A shotgun with appropriate ammo is second. My recommendation to the OP is to grab a Remington 870. Go to a gun show and grab a beat up looking Police trade in cheap. They may look rough, but they fall under the category of carried a lot, shot a little. I guarantee it is practically brand new where it counts. Spend a few MOE bucks to get it refinished (if you care to) -and you are all set with shotgun better than an express model for much less than a "police" model. Remember, function over form. Don't force an unsuitable gun into a role it isn't meant for. If that's all you have, that's one thing. But you are buying for a specific purpose. Don't limit yourself to 2 rounds and a sllllloooooooowwww reload in a self defense situation. If you have your heart set in it, get the SxS you want, just use it for an appropriate purpose.

We didn't have machetes in WWI. We used 1911s, 1917 S&Ws, etools, and a sword if you were lucky enough to find one

@GRIZ what was WW1 like?.....

Just picked up the Arlo Q Will set it up tomorrow.....

Ha! Don't forget a 1911 in the other hand. It worked in WW1 to clear trenches, it's gotta be perfect for HD! [/sarcasm]

Do not use bird shot for HD. It leaves a nasty looking but shallow wound that isn't very effective in stopping a determined attacker. If you feel you and/or your family is in enough danger you need to fire a shotgun in defense of them, use something effective that will have a better chance of stopping the attacker and his aggressive actions towards you. Invest in some 00 or #1 buck designed for social purposes. There are lots of low recoil options that were designed for Law Enforcement that shine in this role. Look at Federal Flight Control and Hornady TAP specifically. They are both are low recoil rounds that maintain very tight groups at room/hallway distances - I'm talking cover all 8 pellets at 10 yards with the palm of your hand tight. These rounds were designed for FISHing and perform very well and the low recoil design makes them almost as mild as a 20g and still quite potent. Whatever you get, make sure you pattern it in YOUR shotgun at distances that are appropriate for your situation. With a shotgun it is imperative that you know what your shotgun does with your ammo at different distances.

What if your home is invaded by this guy?

I haven't had a 22 in my collection since I was a kid. When they came out with the Ruger Takedown Lite, I grabbed it. Stuck a trs25 on it and a matched muzzle brake and viola! I have a ton of fun with it plinking steel at 100 yards easy. Very pleased with it. Not sure why you are against a Takedown. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey sorry for reviving a very old thread, but I am in the market for a CZ SP-01 Tactical and it appears the 15 rounders have been discontinued. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would you recommend getting the regular 18 round mags and getting them pinned or just getting the gun with 10 round mags (since we will prob be lowered to 10 rounds soon anyway) Also, will vendors ship a gun with 18 round mags to a NJ FFL? Thanks! edit: ok I think I found 15 rounds mags here: http://gregcotellc.com/cart/cz-factory-mecgar-magazines-c-173/cz-75b-cz-75bd-c75b-sa-85b-85-combat-sp01-15-rd-9mm-11100-p-1447.html but my question remains: should I get the 10 round version in case we are dropped after the election? Or the 18s and either have them pinned or sell them somehow to fund more 15s?

Interesting as I watch "the words that built a country" on hbo. Third time.

Not sure I read "self preserveation" in the constitution. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. One would think "Life" covers that, but we can't get a court to agree. Driver's licenses/car registrations are regulated by the states. Even tho we drive them over state lines, but there is a specific reciprocal agreement to accept DLs and Registrations from another state. Temporarily. Longer than 30 days you must get local docs and pay. It is a combo of power and money. The 10th gives those powers that aren't specifically given to the Feds to the states. What's funny is that nobody continues the text. "Or to the people" which is to say that any overreach by the state, lets say like like not recognizing the NFA process, should be challenged because the RTKABA is specifically enumerated in the constitution. Right after the first amendment as a sentinel. Yet we all cower at the power of some idiot civil servants. I'm not talking armed revolution. I'm talking getting off our asses and making our voices heard at the ballot box. We have that option. The framers didn't. We insult their memory and sacrifice by sitting on our hands and not voting. They'd be shooting by now because they were subjects and had no choice. We do. Jews during Passover Seder eat bitter herbs and unleavened bread to remind them that they were packing to leave bondage when the first Passover happened. No time to make a proper meal. Why the seeming non sequitur? Because we as free men and women should have something to remind us of what happened two centuries plus 41 years ago yesterday. That those that gave everything to secure that freedom knew that it needed to be protected. Hey knew the bitter taste of subjugation, they also knew the penchant for human beings to grow complacent with pleasurable distractions. They wrote a document that they thought—hoped, would consider that human failing. Yet by that very complacency, we've abdicated quite a few precious rights. And now, when that horse is way out of the barn, we try to claw back. Tough row to hoe. We need some reminder of that bitterness, because the water is starting to boil. We frogs are starting to sweat.

Don't get a side x side or over under, they will kick pretty hard compared to a quality semi auto. I would suggest a semi auto 20 gauge or pump, I have the 500 and everyone likes to shoot it even 10 year olds(@sota how olds your son?). 410 is a useless caliber imo Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

@Purple Patrickhas a mossy pump 20 g with foldable stock. Mrs Z has an 11/87 in 20 but, she has shot my 870 hd in 12. ill say whatever works for you, but for me it's not .410

I think 20GA is a good option. For range and HD I would recommend an 18" barrel pump like a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870. Both are readily available with wood furniture at good prices.

Liberals will still blame Indiana and the machine guns you can buy at Walmart with no ID Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I can't tell you how many times I go to a house and see these beautiful kids living in filth with awful parents. Heartbreaking. I wish I could take them all home with me. Well done Officer! Thans for posting Mrs Peel!

To all those surprised, raise your hand...

I took the 101 handgun class there 2 weekends ago. The class was extremely basic and I really didn't learn much besides getting my form down better. I've also been on here for a few years and have shot frequently on my own. With that said the instructors were extremely informative and helped out people who had never shot a gun to get on paper. They also gave out very knowledgeable advice about the weapon platforms and pretty good advice IMO about NJ gun laws. I would defiantly take a more advanced course there with the same instructors Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I think it depends on your local dept., but most had converted to the "electronic" background check submission. This, if you still have a valid FPID and don't need to be fingerprinted, etc. The electronic background check is available via this URL: NJSP - Form 212A on Line... But let your local dept. advise as to if you need to do this. The cost I believe is about $18.00 for this form. If you need to be fingerprinted again, then you probably have to make an appt. with Ident-2-Go and that will be in the $55-60 range. And, yes, $5.00 for a new FPID and $2.00 for each new P2P. You can download the two new forms on-line as well. STS-033 and SP-066. Hope this helps. Regards, Arnold.