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Fuck them and their forms.

how many times have you stormed the beaches fighting Nazis with your milsurp carbines? because if you are not traveling back in time.. fighting historic wars.. you are just playing army..

so do weapon lights..

One would think you would want every advantage available to you but it is definitely on you. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

if you plan to use a light in a self defense situation.. I think that the average person will be at a disadvantage with a handheld light.. it takes a fair amount of practice and dexterity to operate a light in one hand while shooting with the other.. in addition a light on your weapon leaves another hand to do things.. open and close doors.. drag someone back that has been shot or otherwise hurt.. make phone calls to 911.. you an do whatever you like.. but if you are going to use a gun for self defense.. in a possible low light situation.. not having a weapon light is silly..

"Free" is not the same as "without consequences".

Ok. So say you shoot at a stranger in your house - who may, or may not, deserve to have been shot, but you don’t know because you don’t need a weaponlight. Now what? How do you check the effectiveness of your work? What if the guy beats feet, what kind of description do you have? Say your target quickly disappears from view immediately following your shot. Did you hit them or miss? Did they trip in surprise, fall down from being shot, or dive for cover? Are they orienting themselves to bring a weapon to bear on you? You are making a lot of assumptions on how well you will perform in the worst moment of your life and a lot of assumptions of how impressed your target will be with your gunhandling skills. The light is necessary after your engagement as well. You need to track your threat. Decide if you need to shoot again. Get a description to tell authorities. It is flat irresponsible to use a firearm for self defense without a way to identify shoot from no shoot. Proper use of white light is the most effective way to do that.

they also didn't have cars at one point... and put lead in paint.. doesn't necessarily mean its a good idea..

I spend a lot of my time in the dark. I spend an unusually large amount of time pointing guns at people in the dark. Believe we when I tell you -or not, it’s your life: If you are going to use a gun for HD/SD it needs a light on it. We are visual creatures. We can make correct decisions faster if we can see. Stress affects us less when we can see. Our bodies are actually stronger when we can see. Hell, I have been in situations in daylight conditions where I needed a weaponlight to see past glare and actually see what someone was holding - Bright light makes dark shadows - the suspects body was casting its own shadow from daylight streaming through a window behind him and his hands were in his waistband, in conpleted darkness. I needed my weaponlight to see what he was holding. Ambient light is great for making nice sillouhettes. Not so much for identifying objects held in hands or tucked in their pants. But hey, what do I know. You do you. Just know, you could do better.

No. That is not acquisition. That is engaging. White light is 10000 times more important than a vis laser. Before you can engage a justified deadly force threat you have to: 1) Acquire a target - Is there someone standing in my kitchen or is that a something my wife left on the counter? 2) Identify if the target is Friend or Foe - Is that my son who snuck downstairs for a snack? Or is that an intruder? 3) Discriminate the target for the appropriateness of deadly force - OK. That’s not my son, and I don’t recognize him. Is he holding a can of soda, or a gun? To accomplish each of those tasks, you need to see. That means white light - and lots of it. The better you can see, the faster you can determine shoot/no shoot. Vis lasers on handguns suck. They are a feel good gimmick. They give a false sense of security and ability. You’d be better served with a MRDS.

Not too easy to fish the Raritan in that area. Maybe Johnson Park you can get to the river. I'd fish the canal. I pulled some very decent largemouths out of there.

You sound like my wife.

I hate the mentality of “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”. Being judged by 12 implies I have done something wrong. Why not just do it right? Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why not be prepared? You have already taken the step of “I will have a gun and be able to use in in defense of what I love.” Why not take it a step further and say “I will set myself up for success in all conditions come-what-may.” That way you survive and you never have to be judged at all. I dunno, it seems pretty simple to me. It is like the shooter that spends $4k on a pistol but thinks $15 on a holster to carry it in is too much.

Spidey sense.

@Sniper22 you’ll buy a generator, solar panels and batteries... in case the power goes out. But you won’t put a light on your HD gun. Btw, you can turn them on and off. Flawed logic. Better to have and not need, then need and not have

So we can agree my 300 Lumen Cheap LED Flashlight attached to an AR is enough light for indoors. Can we not also agree with practice shooting with a flashlight in one hand works for a pistol? Police and military did it for years so it must. In response to HE As for discussing markings of historic firearms yes it is a hell of a lot more interesting than discussing nuisances of every hypothetical scenario and which accessory is needed for it when maybe 5% discussing it actually train enough with their tacticool gear. So yes historic events are much more interesting than hypothetical scenarios that 99% will never experience. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Shooting with a flashlight takes planning and practice. I have seen thousands of cops shooting with a flashlight technique. Unless you practice with it ALOT most people will suck with it. A WML makes it easier.

Define used... I’ve carried both of those setups numerous times, as well as the Glock with a TLR-3 and my P938 with TLR-6. Personally, hope I never have to use them. But if it comes down to it, they will all do the job. No role playing. To add in, I’m thinking your “purpose built weapons” were along the lines of your AR example (with the $15 light). I could show my 870 Police, with that Insight M3X, but the other two pictures are more on topic for this thread. I really don’t do things to defensive firearms for style points... I tend to save that for other firearms, including surplus. Just got a 6x PU scope for my Mosin... which joins the USMC M1903 sniper reproduction I have. I have a SGS copy compensator for my 92 Brigadier Inox. And of course my soon to be banished 15 round FBI magazine for my S&W 10mm. My carry guns might be plated (NP3 Plus and CPII in those two pictures), but function is important (not rusting due to battery acid sweat). Just remember, day and night are roughly half of each day. Seeing a target at noon is usually easier than midnight. But criminals do like to gain the upper hand, which includes using darkness to their advantage. My only carry gun that doesn’t have a light on it is my LCP... which is size limited. But if they made a light that didn’t make the profile too much larger, I’d have it by now. For practice, I recommend that definitely. It is hard to do live fire light practice... but it is somewhat possible (doesn’t need to be no-light, just shut the target spotlights in your lane off). I also recommend clearing your gun, and seeing what the light does in your house on a normal night. See how much spill you get. See what reflects light back at you. See how far out your gun is sitting to illuminate certain areas. Physically shooting the gun with the light is only part of practice.

Good idea:

They stopped making the Dinglehopper in 1821 you uncultured swine! Sent from my LG-V496 using Tapatalk

Ha! Better than discussing arsenal marks and cartouches on an 1823 Dinglehopper.

If you aren't a SWAT Team Member, Active Military, or Mercenary how often have you practiced using a handheld light while shooting?

I don’t know about you, but I shoot a whole lot better with two hands on the gun in my regular firing grip than with just one hand or some cocked up juggling act where I am trying to hold a flashlight and a gun and aim them both at someone that I think is trying to kill me. It is also nice to be able to open a door, carry my kid, or dial a phone while still keeping both a gun and a light pointed at a threat.

If you are going to use deadly force it doesn't matter what job you have. You have to show that there was reason to shoot the shape you saw. Not being supposed to be there is not the same as being an imminent threat to you or anybody else. You will be interrogated. If you cannot describe what you saw that would give a reasonable person cause to believe that there was an imminent threat of death or grievous harm to yourself or another, you are going to have a hard time staying out of jail.

If you don’t use your guns for social purposes, then you do not need a mounted light. /thread

Yes, you do NEED it.

Seems like a justification to not spend money. If it was any other gun than a HD gun it is totally optional. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I have a coworker that lives in Point Pleasant (right on the corner of the north side of Route 35)... was a year or two back, but came downstairs to find a random guy sleeping on her couch. Woke him up, and made him get out. A few hours later, she had a knock at the door. The guy came back to apologize. Was drinking the night before, and actually thought he was home, sleeping on his couch. She didn’t lock her door, which is more how she acted prior to this situation occurring (now she locks it every night... at least what she says). He lived just a block or two up. Let’s say you take your thought process and apply it to that situation. You have a long day, and forget to lock the door... or are sick, and a family member is supposed to do it, and doesn’t. Whatever the reason, the stars aligned and the guy staggers into your house. While a drunk walking into your house is not something most people expect, is that an imminent threat? Sorry, but you aren’t going to win that argument, even if you had Johnnie Cochran representing you. Your life (criminal charges), as well as your property (civil liability), are on the line there. Just because there is a shadowy figure in your home, doesn’t mean you are free to mow them down.

So, during a Home Invasion scenario, you want the perp(s) to know EXACTLY where you are because you have a nice bright light shining while walking around your house? I have plenty of ambient lighting throughout my house because of where I live. During Sandy, that was another story, NO ambient lighting for two weeks. That is the only time I would have been worried about not being able to see an intruder and what they may be carrying. I have two dogs, if a perp(s) gets past them, they won't like what hits them next. They are my first line of defense. My neighbors can hear them barking inside my house when they don't recognize something, whether by sight or by sound. My house is so small that I do not need a light so see my way around. No one knows your house better than you do. Having no kids at home, I am not worried about shooting someone be accident on my second floor where the bedrooms are located. So you all can continue to argue whether you need a light mounted to your guns. Every situation is different. This is NJ where we have to retreat by law, correct? I can't go outside with my loaded weapon to chase a perp since the threat is over, so again, why do I need a WPL?

After reading this thread, I think some need to stop watching Bruce Willis movies and focus on reality.

This is false. I have a 1500 lumen light on my rifle and 600 or 1000 lumen lights on my pistols. I have never blinded myself, or even momentarily distracted myself, while clearing a structure. Proper technique is key. If you think about it, once you turn on any light while in the dark, your prepared night vision is toast. Once that happens, having more light is more gooder.

@High Exposure we need “ too bright light” vid here

In my opinion there is a range that is useful and outside of that it is a hindrance, or potentially so. At least 150 lumens is needed to get a good look at something an average hallway distance away in completely dark ambient. The higher you go the easier it is to see. However, if you come to a corner wall having too bright a light will temporarily blind you with the reflection off the wall before you can really see down the next hallway or into the next room. I haven't done exhaustive testing, but I set my adjustable light to 200 lumens for indoor use. Edited to add: I run a regular monthly IDPA match at an indoor range and we do turn the lights out for some stages. This isn't just theory on my part, I swear!

Shooting a pistol in true low light/no light conditions with a handheld flashlight using any of the current accepted techniques is the hardest, and most perishable skills there are when it comes to shooting. Add in shooting on the move and use of cover (two things I guarantee you will do if you are ever shot at or attacked) and it becomes a total shitshow. Doing the same with a WML is no different than doing it without one. Every time you shoot you are practicing it. It is intuitive and instinctive because the light is attached to your gun and points where you aim. In a for real “no shit there I was moment”? All of the Lumens. Every single one. And you will still wish you had more.

As many as i can get. Sent from my LG-V496 using Tapatalk

Thats super. But telling people that a $15 light is the same as a quality weapon mounted light is asinine. Sent from my LG-V496 using Tapatalk

if I am going to use a tool to possibly save my life.. possibly having to go to war with another human being.. that weapon is going to be a money pit.. and it is going to have EVERY advantage possible.. one of those is a $300 weapon light.. because I want the best most reliable equipment I can possibly buy..

Lumens, spill, sight distance, QUALITY Sent from my LG-V496 using Tapatalk

Just cause somethings old doesnt make it important. Humans lived for thousands of years without electricity but is sure makes shit easier doesnt it. Sent from my LG-V496 using Tapatalk

Do you regularly have unknown 16 year old kids wandering around the inside of your house at 2 AM?

Thats not a very bright (ha pun) decision. Just having someone in your house does not necessarily give you the right to end their life. Good luck shooting some unarmed 16 year old and spending many years in prison. Sent from my LG-V496 using Tapatalk

If not you should get them this book my mom just bought future Mrs. PP for her birthday. Kyle will be a proper American soon enough Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

This is the right answer.

Pass

It helps...TLR-7 U need lights... I either have Surefire X300s or Streamlight...

Fuckin Trump Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk I do it for my ammo. I'm not sure what you'll be doing with it but generally it is dense enough where everything just stays in place. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk