Leaderboard

You are not comprehending what I am saying. That’s probably my fault. Again, we as the Good Guys - whether it be cops or armed citizen - we all shoot to stop. The proven, and therefore preferred, method to stop a violent attacker intent on killing or seriously injuring you or someone in your care is to put rounds in the high chest until the you observe a change in behavior from your target and the violent actions of the perp cease. YES, hits to this area of the body will likely result in death. But the human body is an amazing and resilient bit of flesh and Doctors today can perform miracles treating this kind of trauma. Because hits to the chest are so effective at quickly stopping violent actions, anyone trained to carry a gun for defensive purposes trains to hit the “A” zone, upper thoracic, the “pump”, etc... This is accepted and is what we all practice on the square range. In the real world, sometimes our rounds don’t go where we want. We may be intending to hit high chest but instead our rounds hit ankle, leg, pelvis, stomach, shoulder, arm, hand, etc... These “misses” (I contend that any shot this doesn’t go where we want is a miss even if it still strikes the intended target) are a byproduct of dealing with a real world deadly force situation while having only square range training to prepare your actions. That being said, they may be misses, however, they may still work. If this peripheral shot to an unintended part of the body still stops the actions of the bad guy, then this is where the fight stops and your individual trained post engagement sequence begins. We don’t continue to shoot because “we shoot to kill” and he’s still alive. That’s murder and it’s what we are striving to prevent. Once the violent actions cease, your legal, moral, and ethical authority to use deadly force against this perp ceases. So, as I said above your intended and trained point of aim should be high chest area. But life sucks and Lady Luck is a harsh mistress. Sometimes that part of the body is not available due to the presence of cover or concealment, maybe the perp is wearing armor, or there may be innocents in the line of sight between you and your target. When this happens your point of aim must shift to the center of mass of the largest portion of the body that is visible. In other words, if all you have to shoot at is a foot, by all means shoot that foot. I may not kill the guy, but it won’t increase his morale any, and it will definitely affect his mobility making it easier to fix his position so you can finish the fight. Just keep in mind that if the foot shot, or any peripheral hit, stops the fight, you can not subsequently put two in the chest and one in the head simply because your mindset is “When I draw my pistol, it’s to kill someone.” No, you draw your pistol to stop a deadly force encounter. To change the behavior of a violent person intent on doing you or yours harm. You may succeed in stopping it without ever firing a shot. Or you may need to put one in the bad guys computer and shit him off. Or you may need to put several spread all around the body until he leaks enough hydraulic fluid that his blood pressure drops rendering him unconscious. Ultimately, the bad guy decides when the fight is over. Not you.

I'll simplify what @High Exposure said. You shoot to stop not to kill. That's what self defense is. Shooting to kill is murder. Deadly force is justified when someone is doing something so bad they have to be stopped right now. What they are doing is so bad it doesn't matter whether they live or die. Many times when the good guy draws and the bad guy sees his gun he stops. That is a win. There are times where the good guy draws, fires, and misses. The bad guy stops. That is a win. If it's a one on one confrontation you shoot until the bad guy stops. 1 shot, 3 shots, or 10 shots. Whatever it takes to stop him. If the bad guy gets hit and goes down but still has his gun with the ability to shoot you keep shooting until they stop. Just because the bad guy goes down doesn't mean you're not getting shot. I have personal knowledge of an incident where a LEO shot a bad guy 6 times with a revolver. All were good hits. When asked why he shot the bad guy 6 times the LEO's response was, "that's all the bullets I had in my gun". My agency used to teach a technique for close range that works. You start shooting as soon as the muzzle is pointed at the bad guy. Now you may hit the bad guy in the foot or leg with your first shot but that will get his attention. You continue to shoot as the recoil brings your gun higher. Does this work? Someone from the agency I worked for was shot in the mouth by a bad guy with a 380 at a range of about 10 feet. That was the only shot the bad guy got off. He knew he was hit but give him a lot of credit for staying in the fight. The good guy drew and started firing when his gun was pointed at the the bad guy. He hit the bad guy in the thigh, the hip, and in his liver and the BG was down and out of the fight. He quickly bled out from the shot to the liver. The good guy recovered fully and went back to work. Point shooting is both an art and a science few people learn. USPSA, IDPA, or any type of shooting is good practice but it is not gunfighting. The shooting skill is only about 5% of gunfighting. 95% is between your ears. Many of the people I know that prevailed in a gunfight were only mediocre shooters on the range. This woman did a good job IMO.

You and another poster are assuming that. It's not clear from the article. Her comment about "I didn't want to kill him" could have just as easily been referring to the fact that she rendered aid while he was bleeding out. There is NO clear statement that she purposefully shot him in his thigh. Her shot may have simply landed low. We just don't know. And... think of how fast that situation likely unfolded... bullets are flying, adrenaline is pumping, she's taking cover, she gets off a couple of shots that put the guy down... we're really going to critique this to death? Can't we just celebrate the fact that an armed citizen stopped a potential mass shooter? Come'on guys... must we eat our own all the time?

No, I asked you what are your plans if you get shot. Since you kind of asked, I carry a tourniquet and quikclot on me every time I carry. Which is every day now that I am not in NJ. I have an extensive med kit in every vehicle I have and I carry a full trauma kit when I'm hunting or out in the woods. When seconds count EMTs are minutes away........

ARE California POLLS REALLY ACCURATE ? The latest telephone poll taken by the California Governor's office, asked whether people who live in California think illegal immigration is a serious problem: 29% of respondents answered: “Yes, it is a serious problem” 71% of respondents answered: "No es una problema seriosa.

Yer killin us...you know that..

What you said above is completely fair... it may seem like a fine point, but in your statements above you're at least admitting that it's your opinion and your interpretation of the article... whereas the post I objected to sounded like more of a declarative statement: that it was a certainty that she purposefully "winged" him. My point remains that none of us were there, none of us were in her head, and to boot, "journalists" often use editing to construct a sometimes sloppy or even slanted rendition of what happened. Had you said, ""I believe she tried to shoot him in the leg..." or "It sounds like she tried to wing him, which is too risky..." I would never have commented in the first place! Anyway, you seemed to have taken offense where none was meant... so hopefully I've added some clarity. Now, unruffle your feathers... and have a nice hot cup of tea! It's the weekend, don't be a grumble-bunny.

doesnt look like anything changed to me. sb212 state police check sp066 mental health 10 yrs residency on sp066 reference letters always there, mine are sent every time birth certificate might be if theres no DL sounds like the same old to me ,since the inception of the permit process. am i missing anything?

without having read all the replies....am I the only one thinking....she's cute, she's smart, and she's tough? which makes me wanna marry her?

Yes, I do.

I just purchased a new Daniel Defense DDM4v7 from Jack as a first time customer and have to share what a great buying experience it was. Jack was super-responsive to my request and got me the rifle at the best price around. The turnaround time was fast - about a week from the time I confirmed my order to delivery, and that included the compliance work. Jack went over the gun completely when I picked it up and took the time to answer any questions I had. I'd have to say he's more of a gun concierge than a dealer. Really first class service from start to finish. I will definitely be a repeat customer! Dave

.

Slingshot it or wear it out. Your choice Newbee.

Strong work by this security guard. This is an outstanding example of good people with guns standing up to bad people with guns and being a protector. ***Important point of order*** We shoot to stop. We don’t shoot to kill. That very important distinction is what makes us the Good Guys. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn’t understand the laws pertaining to the proper application of deadly force, is attempting to perfect the art of machismo and braggadocio, or just trying to be funny. Yes, our application of deadly force may cause our target to die. Yes, the application of deadly force that will stop a threat fastest and be most appropriate may be to use a weapon or TTP that will cause instant death - but the actual killing of another human being is never the goal. As for first aid supplies, I keep a TQ, gloves, compression bandage, and Quick Clot on me when I carry a gun. Its primary use is for me and mine. Its secondary use is for other innocent victims in the area. Its final use is to treat my target. That is if they survive long enough for me to complete my post engagement sequence and are validated to no longer be a threat. I also carry some kind of restraint for the event I get a psychological stop of the targets actions vs a physiological or traumatic stop.

What are your plans if you get shot?

This woman is pretty badass, I must say! https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/security-guard-shooter-nightclub/

Wouldn’t it be easier to just lay off the Mexican food?

Go to the Attorney General's Office and file criminal charges against the person who signed the letter. Shitbehapnthen!!

Golf Battery was advising a friend in an adjacent township about applying for an FPID and found several additions to the process. I wrote a letter to the chief of police and the mayor. They not only responded but dropped all the illegal additions immediately upon receiving my letter. Just ignorance of the law. When I politely pointed out the discrepancies and the statutes that forbade them, they were very appreciative and cooperative. So no, it doesn't always take legal intervention. Adios, Pizza Bob

FYI, the first part of my message was written before I saw the form (the system merged my 2 messages - the second msg started with "YIKES!..." after I saw the letter). I maintain that sometimes there are mistakes due to ignorance, poor training etc., but I agree THIS CASE looks far more egregious than a simple screw-up - these are "extra" requirements that are simply not allowed by law (and, most troubling to me, an invasion of privacy with regards to letting the employer know WHY the check is being done) - and the signature block of the Chief is right on there for all to see. So, this case does appear to be rather intentional.

I agree... Many times we have to read between the lines, and make determinations, to get to the real story. No offense was ever taken, I'm a big boy and have thick skin, and appreciate opposing view points. I also don't subscribe to the "hive" and "pack" mentality, as some others in this thread do. Unfortunately, some here (not you specifically) can't handle a different point of view on a topic that differs from their own. Sometimes I wonder if they're actually closet Liberals... My feathers have always been tucked in.... You don't want to see when I have to untuck them, it's not a pretty sight, and that's reserved for special occasions. Oh, and it's coffee, not tea.... CAFFEINE RULES!!!!!!!!

EVERY time I have ever applied for a pistol permit, regardless of the last time I applied for one, I have needed 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7. If his town is requiring the other things on the list, he should challenge it. They're not allowed to require more than what the NJSP requires. All the forms that are required are available here: https://www.njsp.org/firearms/forms.shtml. The NJSP background check request is done online now, though. You request and pay for it online ($20) and bring the receipt to the municipality.

All that stuff? 2 items that weigh less that my cell phone is not allot of stuff. Lmao. Well I hope you never learn the lesson about being prepared the hard way. FWIW I do have a fire extinguisher in every vehicle I own along with a a get home bag. Proper planning prevents piss poor performance

What’s a mental health check? Who performs it? What are they looking for? Is there a form? I’m a psychologist and haven’t heard of this. I see how MH professionals will be taking on a risk here and they may not like that.

@Peter Goldwing So what's your plan if you get shot???? It's a simple question.

Man up Sally................

Cops are shooting to stop the treat not by aiming at their legs. Your theory only applies when you confront someone that has some weapon other than a firearm AND is at some distance. While we celebrate that pretty lady, either she missed her intended target or made a judgement mistake. Or she might be Clint Eastwood in disguise. In real emergency the sights on your gun are useless and one that says he tries to stop the threat by hurting rather than killing someone is full of BS Shooting to stop encompasses all sort of shooting . Maybe you are an expert but I doubt it

Many self defense shooting are in the legs and ground at the feet of a target. There are two factors at play here. One is that the person shooting in defense is shooting early on the drawstroke before the weapon is fully presented. The muzzle is pointed low on the body of their target as they attempt to bring the gun to face level and assurance what they think is a proper shooting stance. The immediacy of the event causes them to, understandably, start pressing the trigger early - while the muzzle is still sweeping up from the draw. Second is that the person shooting in self defense is typically shooting over the sights in an attempt to see their entire threat. This causes shots to go lower than intended.

I am an expert and I do understand the quickness with which violence occurs and the urgency of deploying a firearm in a DPF confrontation. I carry a gun every day and teach others to do the same . A large part of what I teach my people are the the intricacies of the proper use of force and the mindset to apply it correctly to whatever scenario you find yourself in. Additionally - here is the important part - I teach them how to continually evaluate the effectiveness of the force you used to make sure it stays reasonable and appropriate to the task at hand. Read what I said. I never said you should shoot to hurt. Read what I said - “Shoot to stop”. “I attempted to stop him” is exactly what works in court. This is what defenders do. “I attempted to kill him” also works in court, if you want to be found guilty. This is what murderers do. Our goal is never to kill anyone. It is to stop the immediate or imminent violent actions of a perpetrator. Full stop. Period. The end. Death may be the only way to stop them. Death may follow a short time after you stop them. But, death is not the intended end state. It is merely a byproduct of your options. The direct actions of another that have risen to the level where they may kill or seriously injure me, or someone in my care in the immediate future is what permits me to use deadly force in defense of myself or others. Keep in mind, there is more than one kind of stop - primarily we talk about two: • Psychological stops • Physiological stops. Physiological stops are further broken down into: • Timers - you injured them but they are still alive. They may die in 30 seconds or they may live another 20 years • Switches - this is a CNS got where they literally turn off. Some nerve and tendon hits that instantly remove the ability to move a body part can also be switches. Scenario - I observe someone committing an act that legally, morally, and ethically permits me to use deadly force to stop them. I draw my pistol and fire one shot. Outcome 1: I miss, but it’s enough to make the perp stop what they are doing and follow my commands to the point I can control them until police/backup arrive. The perp is no longer putting anyone in immediate or imminent danger. Can I continue to shoot them until they are dead? Outcome 2: This time my shot hits them the the heart and severs the spine. The perp is instantly killed and slumps to the ground. This is a physiological stop with a switch. I just turned the guy off. While it is a known possible and acceptable outcome of my intervention, it is not the goal of my use of force. Outcome 3: This time my shot hits him in the belly and the victim is able to scramble away. The perp doesn’t die immediately -This is a physiological stop of the timer variety. Again, my intervention was enough to make him stop his violent actions to where the target of his attack is now safe. Can I keep shooting simply because the perp is still alive? Of course not - that would be murder. Now, if he stops obeying my commands and his actions return to the the level of permitting deadly force, then yes, I am permitted to intervene again. Yes, there are times where you are technically shooting to kill. For example a hostage situation where you are going for the headshot. The mindset however is not to take a kill shot. It is a calculated physiological stop (switch) designed to reduce the risk to another. Not a conscious decision to just kill someone out of hand.

I found a previously loved one for $225 so you can get a good deal on them if you're patient. A little wear on the bluing and a small chip in the grip but it has character.

Maybe she is just into legs. Some women are like that, you know.

Her exact statement, "I'm not here to kill anyone" sounds like she's referencing the actual shooting, not rendering first aid. She also said " I was behind a vehicle… basically just maneuvered around the vehicle as he maneuvered around the other side of it to make sure I was properly concealed and covered,” she added. That sounds like she had some time to plan her shot. Was she aiming low, we'd have to ask her? Her comment makes me think so. If her statement, "I'm not here to kill anyone", was referencing after the fact, I think she would have said something like "then I tried to save him". There's two different issues at play here. Are we not allowed to have our own opinions, after reading an article? You know, that whole 1st Amendment thing? I'd doubt there is anyone in this thread that doesn't celebrate that. We just have different opinions on mindset if you pull a weapon for a defensive reason.

You might like this https://www.tablotv.com/ DVR or stream your OTA signals over Wi-Fi

Both myself and a buddy have the 1st gen Shield. Both have very hard to operate slide releases. Side note: Pinky extensions for the 7rd mag can be found on Amazon for about $7, and make a world of difference. I also have a TLR-6 on mine (#everygungetsalight), and I absolutely love that too.

oh my...

Throw it over the berm! Empty mag in the gun?

It's actually a pretty good way to examine the inside of the box.

You could not be more wrong

Shoot it to break it in man!

Werd! could not have put it better myself!

That guy Jerry Miculek can shoot a revolver at automatic speeds. 8 shots in something like 1.2 seconds, or similar. He did 6 shots and a reload then another 6 in under 3 seconds. They gonna ban fingers? Ban practicing good technique? I know, he's special, but it still makes the point I think. The gun-ban-nuts will never get wise to the fact that guns CAN be a good thing. Instead of wasting allll that money fighting against guns, it would be far more effective using it for hardening the "soft targets" with training and equipment and planning that would "SAVE THE CHILDREN" .

Ha! Another good person with a gun!

This is what I said the Dems will do. They will throw crappy Bill after Bill out there, this one could pass in the House. They will just bury Trump and the Senate, in piles of B.S. legislation, investigations and false claims, hoping something will stick. There will be NO helpful legislation coming out of Congress the next two years.

Now this is what should come back Trooper MK III in.357

I tend to believe you dont understand the immediate need or urgency of using a gun. Not that Im an expert either. You shoot the gun out as the last resort. If your life or someone's else life is TRURLY in danger and there is no option but shooting to kill. This lady was lucky but things could have turned ugly and she easily could have been killed herself. What happens if you try to just stop somebody by injuring and accidentally you kill him ? " I just tried to stop him" doesn't work well in court. I admit at times just producing the weapon might stop someone in his track but shooting to hurt is no way to go for me. JMOHO

shoot to kill, never to wound

She certainly did her job well. Way to go lady. But no first aid kit in my outing with a gun.I have no intention of shooting anyone.If I do I would want to be fatal.