Looking for .223 SMK 69gr and SMK 77gr using Varget and CFE 223 load data.

Hodgdon only has data for Sierra OTM, and Sierra is being super stingy with sharing data.

from the lee manual it lists:

69 gr jacketed- 24 gr min to 26 gr max varget 2.235 min coal

77 gr jacketed- 21.0 gr min to 23.7 max varget  2.260 min coal

17 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

from the lee manual it lists:

Are those data generic to any jacketed, whether tipped, sp or otm, or specific to TMK?

It doesnt list specific bullets so you have to start at the low end and work up to get what you need.  My old Sierra manual does not list smk or otm either so you have to go by weight only to start

.223 load data for 69 gr smk

just getting into metallic reloading so I have no idea how important bullet specific load data is.  There will be a lot of noob questions forthcoming.  I did order a chrono, apparently it's very important for working up loads.

Yes.  Chrono is important but  other signs are also important like primer cratering, and case expansion.  Do not go by the coal in this link as he is using a lever action,  which also has other considerations like bullet tip type.  You dont want to load pointy bullets in a lever action magazine.  Also watch out for compressed loads...which I tend to stay away from.  Get the COAL for your gun or prepare your cases to saami min so  your loaded cartridges will work in any gun.  If you dont have one already,  the Redding Instant indicator is a necessity for checking and loading rifle rounds.  It will tell you the position of the shoulder before and after you fire the round.  Read up on this tool as it is invaluable in my opinion.

2 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Are those data generic to any jacketed, whether tipped, sp or otm, or specific to TMK?

 

Min-Max load data should be pretty generic and cover any jacketed bullet of a given weight, regardless of bullet type as far as chamber pressure (e.g. is it safe) and muzzle velocity goes.

Downrange ballistics will change with bullet type (specifically, with the ballistic coefficient), but that is usually a secondary consideration to having safe reloads.

and there will be a lot of times when you just cant find the data for the exact bullet you have some using all information available you must decide where to start .

2 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Also watch out for compressed loads...which I tend to stay away from. 

I think I may run into that with the 77gr TMK using Varget.  The TMK has a really long ogive, almost seems like I have to get a bit of that into the case neck for proper OAL.  May not be the right bullet for the AR.

3 minutes ago, 10X said:

Min-Max load data should be pretty generic and cover any jacketed bullet of a given weight, regardless of bullet type

Internal ballistics vs external?

1 minute ago, Scorpio64 said:

I think I may run into that with the 77gr TMK using Varget.  The TMK has a really long ogive, almost seems like I have to get a bit of that into the case neck for proper OAL.  May not be the right bullet for the AR.

Unless you want to get into trying out myriads of different powders and bullets,  I would suggest picking a standard loading that someone smarter than us has already figured out that it works and stick with it.  I like 55g FMJ and Tac powder for .223 plinking.

also.  You just do not do only the neck when you resize for auto rifle.  Get FL sizing die if you want them to work in any rifle. You wont get as many loads out of the brass but they will work.  I really like the Redding stuff.

I was using mixed brass with CCI SRP (never bothered with the military primers) and found this best:

69gr TMK, 24.7gr CFE-223, 2.250” OAL

I could get more powder in without crushing or pressure issues but this gave me the tightest group from my 5.56 barrel

I had also tried Varget and had (suspected) low port pressures. Even though Varget and CFE are listed pretty similarly I think it’s a bit too fast for 69gr at least in my mid-length system 

3 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Unless you want to get into trying out myriads of different powders and bullets

I have three powders to work with, Varget, CFE 223 and reloader 15.  I got some figuring to do.

6 minutes ago, Shocker said:

this gave me the tightest group from my 5.56 barrel

That's another thing too.  I'm using a 223 wylde barrel.  I'll be using 223 brass and load data to start, then maybe tweak it once i'm more competent.

22 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Get FL sizing die if you want them to work in any rifle.

FL for semi auto all the time and bolt action for first time resizing unknown brass.  Then neck only for bolt action after brass has been fire formed.  That's how I understand it.

I'm basically working up a load for my SPR first, using PPU 75 gr .223 OTM as the baseline, as that's what I soot almost exclusively and I get about .33moa from it.  After I get that established, I'm going to mess with 60gr Vmax and 69gr Hornady otm for M4gery, and 69gr TMK, 77gr TMK for SPR.

34 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

I think I may run into that with the 77gr TMK using Varget.  The TMK has a really long ogive, almost seems like I have to get a bit of that into the case neck for proper OAL.  May not be the right bullet for the AR.

Internal ballistics vs external?

77gr won't fit into a standard ar15 magazine, but they will chamber by hand with long ogive. The hornady 75 grains don't even fit. 

The 73gr hornady eld bullets are the heaviest substitutes that fit, they were developed specifically for ar15 mags. 

Those 69 grains will run max oal to fit your armags.

3 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

That's another thing too.  I'm using a 223 wylde barrel.  I'll be using 223 brass and load data to start, then maybe tweak it once i'm more competent.

All the dies are .223 (at least...I’ve never seen 5.56 dies commercially). Once you size and trim a 5.56 case it’s now .223.
 

People might say the internal volume is different but I’ve never seen evidence that it was anything other than manufacturer-to-manufacturer variance. 
 

I was just throwing that extra info on my barrel in case anyone cared in the future. 

1 minute ago, JackDaWack said:

77gr won't fit into a standard ar15 magazine. 

The 73gr hornady eld bullets are the heaviest substitutes.

The 77 TMKs can be loaded to mag length, they use a different ogive than Hornady. However I could never get the 77s to shoot worth a crap in my gun. 

7 minutes ago, Shocker said:

The 77 TMKs can be loaded to mag length, they use a different ogive than Hornady. However I could never get the 77s to shoot worth a crap in my gun. 

I resized the neck on one case to where I could slip a bullet in and it would be snug.  A lame attempt at measuring chamber, but that's another story.  When I insert a 77gr TMK, it is outside OAL spec.  I didn't measure where, but I'd have to crimp on the ogive to get it to seat within mag length spec.  If that's what you were doing, it may explain poor groups.  The TMK is practically an ELD bullet.

44 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

Internal ballistics vs external?

Internal ballistics and external ballistics at the muzzle shouldn't change much.  It's the external ballistics downrange that will change with the ballistic coefficient, and of course terminal performance will, but that's really just a concern for hunting rounds.

My notes said I used 2.260” OAL but I didn’t write anything about seating to the ogive. I don’t remember that being the case
 

IIRC the 77 SMK is made for AR mag length and 77 TMK is very similar. That ogive is what it makes it specifically not a VLD, where Hornady’s 77 is. 

1 minute ago, 10X said:

that will change with the ballistic coefficient,

May not have been the best way to approach hand loading, but I shopped for bullets purely on the BC spec, always looking for the highest BC for weight.  I'm not a hunter so terminal was not part of the equation, but the BC on those Sierra 77gr TMK (which I think is a hunting round) is pretty good It's .403 G1 If I recall correctly.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/77-gr-sierra-tipped-matchking-22-caliber-bullets-good-bad.3960019/
 

scroll to post 16

and this guy is pretty good...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIv7gsMi3bY

14 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

Sierra 77gr TMK (which I think is a hunting round) is pretty good It's .403 G1 If I recall correctly.

Corrections...  Match King, so not a hunting round and the BC is .420

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/77gr_Sierra_TMK_loads_/42-458016/

5 hours ago, Shocker said:

scroll to post 16

Yup.  16 nailed it.  Besides OAL, I still have a bit of figuring to do in things like bullet set back, free bore and jump.  I want to make a reliable accurate round, not just an accurate load.  I may end up ditching the 77gr, which to be honest, I only got because they were available and had a smoking BC.  I should stick with what I know works well, 75gr OTM based on the PPU cartridge.

I really need to stop watching youtube vids on reloading.  It's getting expensive.  So now that I know there's a doohickey for measuring ogive length, I have to have one.  And a small base die, because not reloading for 5.56. I dunno if my 223 Wylde chamber will like 223 sized brass.  I dunno why but the guy on the video sez I need to do that, even though external case dimensions are the same for 223/556.

I've been down this rabbit hole along with a couple of my friends, despite my warnings.  

Unless you're shooting competitively or are very knowledgeable about reloading I would warn you away from things like the Ogive Comparator.  It introduces a variable that is just not that important to guys that are simply shooting paper, casually, at 300 yards.  There are plenty of ways to find out if your ammo is gonna fit with the most important being; it chambers.  

It's kind of like getting a borescope.  You want to find a good deal on a perfectly fine used barrel?  Find a guy that just bought a borescope.   It's information overload.

I had all the tools and have since sold them off as they were taking the enjoyment of simply reloading ammo that shoots well and works away from me.  I have a press, a Chargemaster, and the necessary components.  Nothing more as it's just not necessary to what I do.  If I was to get back in to competitive shooting, I'd probably try to get the FX auto trickler.  That's about as far as I'd go.  

Good luck with whatever you decide to work up.  

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Videos | wheeleraccuracy

Scroll to the bottom.  There is a great video on how to find your lands.  No tools needed.  

35 minutes ago, Bully said:

There is a great video on how to find your lands.  No tools needed.  

That is a really neat method, I'll have to try it when I start reloading for my bolt action. Is there a way to translate that method to a semi auto action?   The video above it about die size was pretty interesting too.