I need some education on red dots. How does one measure it so it's guaranteed to co witness the standard sites?

I'm looking for a red dot that co witnesses the beretta cx4. I'd like to keep it under 400 if possible and I'd like it to be a closed optic

I'm debating between the primary arms cyclops, HOLOSUN AEMS CORE 2MOA ENCLOSED RED DOT,  and holoson 512c. I'd appreciate all suggestions. 

2 hours ago, Cheflife15 said:

I need some education on red dots. How does one measure it so it's guaranteed to co witness the standard sites?

I'm looking for a red dot that co witnesses the beretta cx4. I'd like to keep it under 400 if possible and I'd like it to be a closed optic

I'm debating between the primary arms cyclops, HOLOSUN AEMS CORE 2MOA ENCLOSED RED DOT,  and holoson 512c. I'd appreciate all suggestions. 

I don't have an answer for you, but these folks may:

http://sierrapapacx4.com/

Cx4 sights are fairly low - If you're going for a cowitness, you're going to have an optic mounted direct on the pic rail without a riser.  Stock sights will be kinda in the way so you need a tube type sight directly on the rail.  The stock iron sights will slightly be in the way, and I recommend putting the red dot further forward on the Cx4.  If you have it back near the rear sight it will be obscured by the rear sight and the plastic around it.  It could also interfere with the charging handles too depending on the sight.

I have a Vortex Crossfire Red Dot on mine currently.  

Hard to see down using a phone camera but the sights take up a lot of your field of view.  You can potentially fold the rear sight blade so that it's mostly out of the way but it's still not the most optimal if you just want to view the dot.

 

On 3/14/2022 at 10:34 PM, Krdshrk said:

Cx4 sights are fairly low - If you're going for a cowitness, you're going to have an optic mounted direct on the pic rail without a riser.  Stock sights will be kinda in the way so you need a tube type sight directly on the rail.  The stock iron sights will slightly be in the way, and I recommend putting the red dot further forward on the Cx4.  If you have it back near the rear sight it will be obscured by the rear sight and the plastic around it.  It could also interfere with the charging handles too depending on the sight.

I have a Vortex Crossfire Red Dot on mine currently.  

Hard to see down using a phone camera but the sights take up a lot of your field of view.  You can potentially fold the rear sight blade so that it's mostly out of the way but it's still not the most optimal if you just want to view the dot.

 

Interesting. Maybe I should do the red dot at 45 degrees? The gun has no recoil so turning it slightly shouldn't be an issue. Have you tried that?

58 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Interesting. Maybe I should do the red dot at 45 degrees? The gun has no recoil so turning it slightly shouldn't be an issue. Have you tried that?

No, I haven't tried any angled optics for the Cx4.  

Stop overthinking it.

A red dot sight (RDS) will be the primary sighting system as it is much faster and generally more accurate than irons in all conditions.

With the addition of an improved sighting system, irons are now relegated to BUIS - BACK UP Iron Sight - status.

Set the carbine up to be most effective with your primary sighting system - the RDS. In other words:
• Buy a quality optic
• Buy a quality mount
• Put the optic where it is comfortable to use, and where it will let you perform the best

The optic should be easy to find, have an uncluttered view, and comfortable to use with no extra steps (like rotating the rifle or dropping your head)

Then figure out your irons after your RDS is optimized.

Right now you are trying to do it backwards.

Do not compromise your most useful sighting option to give priority to your back up system.

If you do it right, you will never even need the BUIS. Hell, in 20 years, I’ve never deployed my irons on any of my carbines or rifles that are outfitted with optics.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Stop overthinking it.

A red dot sight (RDS) will be the primary sighting system as it is much faster and generally more accurate than irons in all conditions.

With the addition of an improved sighting system, irons are now relegated to BUIS - BACK UP Iron Sight - status.

Set the carbine up to be most effective with your primary sighting system - the RDS. In other words:
• Buy a quality optic
• Buy a quality mount
• Put the optic where it is comfortable to use, and where it will let you perform the best

The optic should be easy to find, have an uncluttered view, and comfortable to use with no extra steps (like rotating the rifle or dropping your head)

Then figure out your irons after your RDS is optimized.

Right now you are trying to do it backwards.

Do not compromise your most useful sighting option to give priority to your back up system.

If you do it right, you will never even need the BUIS. Hell, in 20 years, I’ve never deployed my irons on any of my carbines or rifles that are outfitted with optics.

What's your suggested optic and mount combo? Is under 400 a decent amount?

1 hour ago, Cheflife15 said:

Is under 400 a decent amount?

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

Lol. 

1 hour ago, Cheflife15 said:

What's your suggested optic and mount combo? Is under 400 a decent amount?

Depends what you are doing.

Plinking/recreation? Sure. $400 may be enough for a Holosun 502 and a quality QD mount so I can ditch the optic and go to irons if the optic failed. 

If it was a social gun that I was betting my life on and was now considered personal safety equipment? No way. I’d put an Aimpoint T1 with a LaRue or ADM QD mount.

But - you shouldn’t even be thinking about also adding an optic to a social gun until you have a sling and white light on it - in that order.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Lol. 

Depends what you are doing.

Plinking/recreation? Sure. $400 may be enough for a Holosun 502 and a quality QD mount so I can ditch the optic and go to irons if the optic failed. 

If it was a social gun that I was betting my life on and was now considered personal safety equipment? No way. I’d put an Aimpoint T1 with a LaRue or ADM QD mount.

But - you shouldn’t even be thinking about also adding an optic to a social gun until you have a sling and white light on it - in that order.

Ok so let's start from the top. What sling would you suggest? I have a surefire light that I'm comfortable with. My sp01 tactical is my nightstand gun but maybe it wants a back up.

 

Id love an optic for plinking and then one for home defense.

36 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Ok so let's start from the top. What sling would you suggest? I have a surefire light that I'm comfortable with.

Any quick adjust 2 point of your choice.

I am not a fan of the loose running end versions like the VTAC.

I like closed loop versions like Magpul, BFG VCAS, and Ferro, even though they have a shorter adjustment range.

December Customs is a local NJ company that make a nice sling as well. I have checked them out, and theirs will probably be the next sling I buy.

Surefire is my preferred light along with ModLight. Just make sure your “switchology” is simple and intuitive.

36 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Id love an optic for plinking and then one for home defense.

A higher quality optic can always be used for low quality tasks. The opposite is not always true.

My opinion has always been a combination of:
• Best value trumps lowest price
• Buy once, Cry once
• You get what you pay for

If your only getting one optic set up, save a little longer and get the better kit.

Holosun HS502 would block the irons completely which is probably not a problem.  Aimpoint would be nice on it but yeah the mount would block the irons as well.  I've had a Vortex Strikefire on mine with the standard mount - blocks out the irons.  My issue with that one is that it keeps running out of batteries so I removed it.  

 

If you are spending the money to put an optic on the carbine, who cares about the irons being blocked?

Why compromise your primary method for sights because you may need your back up irons?

If you want irons, just run irons and forget the optic.

Set yourself up for success - if you get a quality RDS optic and a quality QD mount, there is a 99% chance you’ll never even need the irons. Other than zeroing, I can not remember the last time I used my iron sights on an optic equipped gun.

Put the optic on a quality mount (LaRue, ADM, Geissele, Bobro, Scalar, etc..) that has a QD. If the 1% chance happens and your optic dies, flip the QD and ditch the whole thing off the rail. Then your irons are clear and you can continue doing whatever you have to do.

Thank you for the information so far. Which specific optics would you suggest (buy once cry once)

No restrictions: Aimpoint T2 in an ADM or LaRue low QD mount.

Budget option: Aimpoint PRO in ADM Low QD mount

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

No restrictions: Aimpoint T2 in an ADM or LaRue low QD mount.

Budget option: Aimpoint PRO in ADM Low QD mount

Awesome

I'm able to figure out what qd is but what is ADM?

4 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Awesome

I'm able to figure out what qd is but what is ADM?

American Defense Manufacturing, or ADM

https://www.admmfg.com/micro-t1-mount

I use this Vortex on my CX4. It’s a good value and you really can’t beat the warranty service. 
 

https://www.eurooptic.com/vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope-with-drt-reticle-moa-spr-1301.aspx

On 3/18/2022 at 7:33 AM, Cheflife15 said:

What's your suggested optic and mount combo? Is under 400 a decent amount?

I have two of these.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-rotary-knob-25mm-microdot-with-2-moa-dot-reticle

For the money it’s hard to beat, one is on the wife’s 9mm bullpup, had the second on my Ar, then went with a vortex scope, not because I wasn’t happy, just wanted magnification. If I remember correctly it came with a mount and spacers, don’t quote me on that though. The second is on the wife’s 15-22 now but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another if I needed one. The glass is really nice, both have never lost zero.

 

As far as RDS - I have a T2, four T1s, a PRO, and a CompM3 in a mix of LaRue, Geissele, ADM, and Scalarworks, QD mounts. None have ever failed or lost zero. The Comp M3 and the T2 have much sharper dots that the T1s and PRO. I want to try Aimpoint’s new Duty optic, but I have no time on one yet.

I do also have other RDS that are more budget friendly on guns that are for competition or plinking:

I have a Trijicon SRS and an MRO, but I’m not sold on them 100% yet. I don’t think they even make the SRS anymore and the MRO has some parallax and slight magnification issues I’m not a fan of.

I also have a few Holosuns that have been decent for fun guns. Couple of 502 and 503s as well as a 510 on my PCC. I sometimes get weird reflections in the glass on the Holosuns giving me multiple dots, and there is some slight parallax around the edges. The notch filter is also very noticeable.