I know a while back you could only transport hollow point bullets in NJ to a shooting range and some other conditions.

Mostly everyone knows that hollow points are used for personal defense.

 Since the state was forced to allow CCW on the average citizen without "an immediate need" I wonder if they changed their stand on hollow point bullets for those who legally carry a gun.

No, they didn't.

No they did not. Critical defence or duty is what I am carrying

This had nothing to do with Bruen.

Retired LEOS can carry hollowpoints.  Everyone else no.

7 hours ago, GRIZ said:

This had nothing to do with Bruen.

Retired LEOS can carry hollowpoints.  Everyone else no.

Not according to my BIL, a retired CO &:

New Jersey also makes it a crime under N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(f) to possess “hollow nose” ammunition unless the person is an active law enforcement officer. This law is not subject to any exemption even if the person carrying has a permit.

2 hours ago, siderman said:

Not according to my BIL, a retired CO &:

New Jersey also makes it a crime under N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(f) to possess “hollow nose” ammunition unless the person is an active law enforcement officer. This law is not subject to any exemption even if the person carrying has a permit.

Your BIL is not fully informed.

Under LEOSA an active or retired LEO can carry hollowpoints in NJ.  LEOSA allows carrying of hollowpoints.  No state law trumps federal law.

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/federal-judge-rules-against-nj-finally-allowing-retired-leos-to-carry/

15 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Your BIL is not fully informed.

Under LEOSA an active or retired LEO can carry hollowpoints in NJ.  LEOSA allows carrying of hollowpoints.  No state law trumps federal law.

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/federal-judge-rules-against-nj-finally-allowing-retired-leos-to-carry/

Nice, thanx for that update, seems that ruling is less than a yr old.. I will forward that link to my BIL, as of Easter he was unaware and (we) will be happy to stand corrected.

3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

  No state law trumps federal law.

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/federal-judge-rules-against-nj-finally-allowing-retired-leos-to-carry/

sorry to cut up your post, and to probably derail this thread......but that last statement you typed there. why has no one fought against nj's (illegal) gun control laws using that?

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

sorry to cut up your post, and to probably derail this thread......but that last statement you typed there. why has no one fought against nj's (illegal) gun control laws using that?

LEOSA only applies to active and retired leos and is Federal law.  If they meet the requirements they can carry anywhere in the US.  NJ said it didn't apply to retired leos who live in NJ.  NJ wanted control and to collect their $50.  LEOSA also states active and retired leos can carry any ammo not restricted by the NFA. Hollowpoints are not restricted by NFA only state law.  However,  LEOSA,  a Federal law, only applies to active and retired leos.

1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

LEOSA only applies to active and retired leos and is Federal law.  If they meet the requirements they can carry anywhere in the US.  NJ said it didn't apply to retired leos who live in NJ.  NJ wanted control and to collect their $50.  LEOSA also states active and retired leos can carry any ammo not restricted by the NFA. Hollowpoints are not restricted by NFA only state law.  However,  LEOSA,  a Federal law, only applies to active and retired leos.

i get that. where i was going with my question though.....

 

 if federal law allows standard capacity mags, nfa items, and other things......then states like nj come along and say those are a nogo.....well if federal law always trumps state/local laws, then those state/local laws don't hold water. just like the leosa thing. i'm not trying to be a wise azz. just trying to figure out how we haven't fought illegal laws that way as yet. eSPECIALLY in the area of the 2a as there is no provision within that for state/local govts to play the games they are all across the country. and i know scotus just said they can do some......

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

if federal law allows standard capacity mags, nfa items, and other things......then states like nj come along and say those are a nogo.....well if federal law always trumps state/local laws, then those state/local laws don't hold water. just like the leosa thing. i'm not trying to be a wise azz. just trying to figure out how we haven't fought illegal laws that way as yet. eSPECIALLY in the area of the 2a as there is no provision within that for state/local govts to play the games they are all across the country. and i know scotus just said they can do some......

The difference is there is no Federal law that says you CAN have standard capacity mags and hollowpoints, it is just that there is no law saying you can't.

LEOSA specifically says LEO and RPO CAN possess gun, mags and ammo and notwithstanding any State law that says you can't.

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

i get that. where i was going with my question though.....

 

 if federal law allows standard capacity mags, nfa items, and other things......then states like nj come along and say those are a nogo.....well if federal law always trumps state/local laws, then those state/local laws don't hold water. just like the leosa thing. i'm not trying to be a wise azz. just trying to figure out how we haven't fought illegal laws that way as yet. eSPECIALLY in the area of the 2a as there is no provision within that for state/local govts to play the games they are all across the country. and i know scotus just said they can do some......

Most laws are prohibitive in nature.  They tell you what you can't do. NJ firearms laws tell you what can do.

You can have a state law more restrictive than a Federal law but you can't have one contrary to Federal law.  NJ used to say LEOSA didn't apply to retired leos that lived in NJ.  That's pretty contrary.  

A lot of Federal laws deal with things that travel in interstate commerce.  Motor vehicles, whiskey, and firearms are a few.  Federal law says to buy a gun from a dealer you have to fill out the 4473 and get a background check.  Buying a gun from a private individual when your both residents of the state has no interstate connection.  If you're doing it most states it's like buying a hammer.

All the extra requirements NJ puts on buying a gun are legal.  They don't make it impossible to get a gun only very difficult.

I'm going to make a distinction that's not related to this thread topic in particular, but laws in general.

Laws prohibit behavior, but don't prevent anything. They don't and can't stop anyone from doing anything.

Laws prescribe punishment for the prohibited behavior, if someone is caught.

So all laws do is raise the stakes for those who wish to engage in a specific prohibited activity.

And if someone is basically oblivious to punishment, laws stop nothing.

In the end, what does and doesn't happen is totally dependent on the mindset of individuals.

18 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

I'm going to make a distinction that's not related to this thread topic in particular, but laws in general.

Laws prohibit behavior, but don't prevent anything. They don't and can't stop anyone from doing anything.

Laws prescribe punishment for the prohibited behavior, if someone is caught.

So all laws do is raise the stakes for those who wish to engage in a specific prohibited activity.

And if someone is basically oblivious to punishment, laws stop nothing.

In the end, what does and doesn't happen is totally dependent on the mindset of individuals.

#micdrop

1 hour ago, 45Doll said:

 

 

In the end, what does and doesn't happen is totally dependent on the mindset of individuals.

This point is unfortunately more relevant on the "good" side of the law when the prosecutors ( think AG's, FBI...) don't do anything. 

3 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

The difference is there is no Federal law that says you CAN have standard capacity mags and hollowpoints, it is just that there is no law saying you can't.

LEOSA specifically says LEO and RPO CAN possess gun, mags and ammo and notwithstanding any State law that says you can't.

 

3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Most laws are prohibitive in nature.  They tell you what you can't do. NJ firearms laws tell you what can do.

You can have a state law more restrictive than a Federal law but you can't have one contrary to Federal law.  NJ used to say LEOSA didn't apply to retired leos that lived in NJ.  That's pretty contrary.  

A lot of Federal laws deal with things that travel in interstate commerce.  Motor vehicles, whiskey, and firearms are a few.  Federal law says to buy a gun from a dealer you have to fill out the 4473 and get a background check.  Buying a gun from a private individual when your both residents of the state has no interstate connection.  If you're doing it most states it's like buying a hammer.

All the extra requirements NJ puts on buying a gun are legal.  They don't make it impossible to get a gun only very difficult.

thanks. that's what i was missing, and it was getting under my skin a little.

Now comes the WHY,

What is the reason in the state's mind for prohibiting the hollow point bullet?

8 minutes ago, Peter Goldwing said:

Now comes the WHY,

What is the reason in the state's mind for prohibiting the hollow point bullet?

Hollowpoints are more effective at stopping.  My guess is the powers in NJ thought that should be reserved for the state.

I think it’s more like the laws are written by nitwits that don’t know how bullets work and someone decided HPs were scary

They were labelled "cop killer bullets". It was recycling the same con that the politicians have been using for decades.

1. Create a scary boogeyman that the lazy, uninformed voter will take on face value.
2. Present yourself as the savior that will slay the boogeyman.
3. Get voted in again.
4. Rinse, repeat.

They have done it over and over again and the dumb voters keep buying it. Covid, ebola, Trump, China, the Russians, global warming, ozone layer, acid rain, commies, gun owners, AR-15s, murder hornets, etc. You get the idea.

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

They were labelled "cop killer bullets". It was recycling the same con that the politicians have been using for decades.

1. Create a scary boogeyman that the lazy, uninformed voter will take on face value.
2. Present yourself as the savior that will slay the boogeyman.
3. Get voted in again.
4. Rinse, repeat.

They have done it over and over again and the dumb voters keep buying it. Covid, ebola, Trump, China, the Russians, global warming, ozone layer, acid rain, commies, gun owners, AR-15s, murder hornets, etc. You get the idea.

This all day long.

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

They have done it over and over again and the dumb voters keep buying it. Covid, ebola, Trump, China, the Russians, global warming, ozone layer, acid rain, commies, gun owners, AR-15s, murder hornets, etc. You get the idea.

Absolute proof that brainwashing works. En masse.

Calling it "brain washing" is giving these progressives far more credit than they deserve.

possibly gaslighting would be a more accurate term?

3 hours ago, brucin said:

Calling it "brain washing" is giving these progressives far more credit than they deserve.

Make no mistake, the people we call leftards, the useful idiots are not the same as the ones pulling the strings..  The puppeteers are very intelligent and well educated in psychology, sociology, political science and a few other disciplines.  They know how to manipulate, just like Goebbels did.  Do not underestimate them.  Trannies on beer cans is something nobody saw coming, and yet, here we are.  That does not happen without systemic social programming.

57 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

The puppeteers are very intelligent and well educated in psychology, sociology, political science and a few other disciplines

I wasn't speaking about them. It's the empty headed meat puppets that go along with every suggestion their masters put forward I was talking about.

On 5/21/2023 at 9:39 AM, Mr.Stu said:

They were labelled "cop killer bullets". It was recycling the same con that the politicians have been using for decades.

1. Create a scary boogeyman that the lazy, uninformed voter will take on face value.
2. Present yourself as the savior that will slay the boogeyman.
3. Get voted in again.
4. Rinse, repeat.

They have done it over and over again and the dumb voters keep buying it. Covid, ebola, Trump, China, the Russians, global warming, ozone layer, acid rain, commies, gun owners, AR-15s, murder hornets, etc. You get the idea.

Agree.

Add a scary label to something and it's easier for politicians to pretend like they're doing something of value.

Interesting article that talks about cop-killer, black talon, and hollow point ammunition:

 

https://www.guns.com/news/2011/10/26/the-myth-of-the-cop-killer-bullet

 

 

they labeled them cop killer bullets? aren't hollow points less likely to penetrate body armor? due to their expansion?

24 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

they labeled them cop killer bullets? aren't hollow points less likely to penetrate body armor? due to their expansion?

See step 1 above.

On 5/19/2023 at 9:41 PM, Vdep217 said:

No they did not. Critical defence or duty is what I am carrying

Im carrying Lehigh Defense