If you were to walk in apply for a permit to carry and (a year later) be denied?

 

I understand you have to say you've been denied the right to carry on your weapons "application" when you purchase a new firearm but does that REALLY mean anything? Is "unjustified need" going to make it impossible for you to purchase future firearms?

 

With the recent McDonnald decision saying right to keep and bear arms / self defense is a fundamental right along with decisions such as the one where police don't have a constitutional duty to protect / restrictions in secure gov buildings but nothing about public areas / self defense doesn't end at your front door / past cases with fundamental rights being violated, one could make a fairly strong arguement about justifiable need. It's a long shot but realistically what other option do we have? The NRA has left NJ and there is no real political 2a power here as well.

 

 

Just curious...

If you were to walk in apply for a permit to carry and (a year later) be denied?

 

I understand you have to say you've been denied the right to carry on your weapons "application" when you purchase a new firearm but does that REALLY mean anything? Is "unjustified need" going to make it impossible for you to purchase future firearms?

 

With the recent McDonnald decision saying right to keep and bear arms / self defense is a fundamental right along with decisions such as the one where police don't have a constitutional duty to protect / restrictions in secure gov buildings but nothing about public areas / self defense doesn't end at your front door / past cases with fundamental rights being violated, one could make a fairly strong arguement about justifiable need. It's a long shot but realistically what other option do we have? The NRA has left NJ and there is no real political 2a power here as well.

 

 

Just curious...

 

Actually I have already been exploring this. I already called up the NRA about a week ago and asked if they had any legal action currently going on or planned in NJ. They said no and only mentioned the bill that would have required the NRA to expose its members that they were fighting in New Jersey. They said they would not get involved in what they called a "personal lawsuit" of mine until I had reached the New Jersey Supreme Court, they denied me and then I wanted to appeal their decision. They said they do not get involved in anything unless it is an issue that is IMMEDIATELY affecting all of the NRA members in New Jersey. All I wanted was to see if they wanted to be proactive and get involved in the process earlier so we could have more stuff tested legally because of a case and not a narrow ruling like McDonald just because I forgot to add that I wanted to do X,Y,Z legally etc. (On a side note I really wish McDonald said he wanted a carry permit as well >.> <.<). So it seems like the NRA is not going to be proactive about anything in New Jersey, instead they will just keep sending alerts to us in emails that do nothing to help us.

 

On the other hand I also called the Gun Owners of America and they said that of course I would have to be denied first so I had a legal reason to go to court. They said it was then up to the Counsel at Gun Owners of America if they wanted to take the case or not. They did give me some contacts that would help me draft my letter of need though. I have a few more organizations to call.

I'm an ffl and I applied for my ccw bout 8 months ago, here what went down:

filled out app & filed it with township police, they came down and interviewed me, they approved my app & submitted it to the appropiates. I had a court date to go in front of judge....I went. Got interviewed by 'ass't prosecutor prior to entering court room. Meanwhile, 'ass't pros went to meet with judge. I got up before judge and he recommended I withdraw my application cause if he hears itand I get denied, I can't apply again in future, if I withdraw, I can reapply again. So I withdrew my app. The judge said that if I had documented personal threats against me, he might consider it. Good luck

 

Tony.......

I'm an ffl and I applied for my ccw bout 8 months ago, here what went down:

filled out app & filed it with township police, they came down and interviewed me, they approved my app & submitted it to the appropiates. I had a court date to go in front of judge....I went. Got interviewed by 'a**'t prosecutor prior to entering court room. Meanwhile, 'a**'t pros went to meet with judge. I got up before judge and he recommended I withdraw my application cause if he hears itand I get denied, I can't apply again in future, if I withdraw, I can reapply again. So I withdrew my app. The judge said that if I had documented personal threats against me, he might consider it. Good luck

 

Tony.......

 

 

what a bunch of assholes.. seriously.. its like this ridiculous game..

Keep in mind this may not affect you ONLY in NJ. Just about any application that I have filled out for a non-resident CCW (and I have 5), asks if you have ever been denied a CCW. If you apply in NJ and get denied - which you surely will - you will have to answer "yes" on any and all applications, which will increase your likelihood of being denied there also. Kind of a Catch-22.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Keep in mind this may not affect you ONLY in NJ. Just about any application that I have filled out for a non-resident CCW (and I have 5), asks if you have ever been denied a CCW. If you apply in NJ and get denied - which you surely will - you will have to answer "yes" on any and all applications, which will increase your likelihood of being denied there also. Kind of a Catch-22.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

So apply for other CCW's first, then deal with NJ's, or does other state CCW's need to be renewed?

Keep in mind this may not affect you ONLY in NJ. Just about any application that I have filled out for a non-resident CCW (and I have 5), asks if you have ever been denied a CCW. If you apply in NJ and get denied - which you surely will - you will have to answer "yes" on any and all applications, which will increase your likelihood of being denied there also. Kind of a Catch-22.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

So apply for other CCW's first, then deal with NJ's, or does other state CCW's need to be renewed?

 

 

need to be renewed as far as I know..

So apply for other CCW's first, then deal with NJ's, or does other state CCW's need to be renewed?

 

They need to be renewed and it's usually the same application with the same question. The definition of insanity is to continually do the same thing and expect different results. Applys to people that try to get a NJ CCW, thinking, "This time will be different." :mrgreen:

 

We need a change in the law to take away the discretionary aspect of the CCW process.

 

BTW - residents of Indiana CAN get a lifetime CCW permit.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I am exploring a possible class action lawsuit targeting making "self-defense" a "justifiable need." There are several members of the Ocean County Gun Club that Frank started that have expressed interest and we have started a list of those who want to be part of the effort.

 

This list is not a commitment. It is merely the list of people who will be contacted if we get to the point where we get an attorney and develop a plan of how to proceed.

 

I am in the process of calling attorneys and getting basic feedback. If you want to be added to the list please PM me your name, email, phone #, town and county and I will add you to the list.

I hate to say this, but I would strongly suggest that everybody hold off the lawsuits for now. The last thing we want to do is create bad precedent.

 

I think to win in NJ, we need a cross-section like we had in Chicago.

 

* We need a Hasidic Jew, complete with black hat and peyos, who wants to carry because he has been assaulted for his religion.

 

* We need a gay man who has been assaulted and wasn't able to defend himself.

 

* We need a young woman who has a restraining order against a former boyfriend.

 

* We need an immigrant business owner who has been robbed on the way to the bank.

 

If you found those four people, had them apply for a carry permit, get denied, and then took their appeals to court, we could have something. I think that the court (and the media) was sympathetic to Otis McDonald exactly because he was Otis McDonald.

 

If you are white and middle-aged, even if you are white, middle aged and Jewish like me, you are the wrong person for the lawsuit. And no, I will not dress up in a black hat and grow peyos for the lawsuit. If I went that route I wouldn't be able to drive to the skeet range on shabbat. :?

 

Bether

mcbethr, with those scenarios you are showing a justifiable need per NJ law. We need someone with the hutzpa and the mulah to bring action against this state just because they want a carry permit.

 

tj462nj, "I can't apply again in future, if I withdraw, I can reapply again." Why not? I don't see where it is written why you can't reapply if you are denied. Besides, you don't need to get permits anymore with an FFL.

 

I think the perfect person to bring action and see it all the way to the top would be a retired LEO with money and some political backing. He can carry under HR321 and NJ law anyway. Why not apply for a regular permit?

mcbethr, with those scenarios you are showing a justifiable need per NJ law. We need someone with the hutzpa and the mulah to bring action against this state just because they want a carry permit.

 

tj462nj, "I can't apply again in future, if I withdraw, I can reapply again." Why not? I don't see where it is written why you can't reapply if you are denied. Besides, you don't need to get permits anymore with an FFL.

 

I think the perfect person to bring action and see it all the way to the top would be a retired LEO with money and some political backing. He can carry under HR321 and NJ law anyway. Why not apply for a regular permit?

 

Good luck finding a retired LEO who would feel like dealing with that crap

Keep in mind this may not affect you ONLY in NJ. Just about any application that I have filled out for a non-resident CCW (and I have 5), asks if you have ever been denied a CCW. If you apply in NJ and get denied - which you surely will - you will have to answer "yes" on any and all applications, which will increase your likelihood of being denied there also. Kind of a Catch-22.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

 

There is an area to explain why you answered yes. Would "unjustified need" really make you seem like a bad person and get denied an out of state ccw permit? If so, sounds like other states are just as bad as NJ then...

I hate to say this, but I would strongly suggest that everybody hold off the lawsuits for now. The last thing we want to do is create bad precedent.

 

So, should I add you to the list?

There is an area to explain why you answered yes. Would "unjustified need" really make you seem like a bad person and get denied an out of state ccw permit? If so, sounds like other states are just as bad as NJ then...

 

I just said that it would increase your likelihood of being denied, not that you'd be denied out of hand. Do you want to be the test case? I know my chance of getting a NJ CCW permit, under the current law, is nil, why put myself through that and possibly jeopardize my chances at a non-resident permit?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

There is an area to explain why you answered yes. Would "unjustified need" really make you seem like a bad person and get denied an out of state ccw permit? If so, sounds like other states are just as bad as NJ then...

 

I just said that it would increase your likelihood of being denied, not that you'd be denied out of hand. Do you want to be the test case? I know my chance of getting a NJ CCW permit, under the current law, is nil, why put myself through that and possibly jeopardize my chances at a non-resident permit?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

 

I'll do it

There is an area to explain why you answered yes. Would "unjustified need" really make you seem like a bad person and get denied an out of state ccw permit? If so, sounds like other states are just as bad as NJ then...

 

I just said that it would increase your likelihood of being denied, not that you'd be denied out of hand. Do you want to be the test case? I know my chance of getting a NJ CCW permit, under the current law, is nil, why put myself through that and possibly jeopardize my chances at a non-resident permit?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

 

It's a legitimate concern, however, there is nothing good that can come out of speculating. I suggest, if that is a concern for anyone, that you call the appropriate agency in FL and UT (the two most popular non-resident permits) and ask them what would happen. I have seven CCW permits. Throughout the process for each one, I was never steered in the wrong direction. I always received accurate, helpful guidance (not like in NJ). If anyone does this, please post what you find out.

 

In the mean time, there is no harm in putting your name on the list. Who knows, if the list gets long enough, maybe we won't need to litigate.

You guys seem to not realize this fact: if at first you get denied, but then appeal to the NJSC, and maybe even SCOTUS, and eventually win (!!), you will not be considered as ever having been denied a CCW permit, as the appeal erases the original decision.

mcbethr, with those scenarios you are showing a justifiable need per NJ law. We need someone with the hutzpa and the mulah to bring action against this state just because they want a carry permit.

 

tj462nj, "I can't apply again in future, if I withdraw, I can reapply again." Why not? I don't see where it is written why you can't reapply if you are denied. Besides, you don't need to get permits anymore with an FFL.

 

I think the perfect person to bring action and see it all the way to the top would be a retired LEO with money and some political backing. He can carry under HR321 and NJ law anyway. Why not apply for a regular permit?

 

They passed a state law about 10 years ago, well before LEOSA that made Retirees Elligible for carry permits without the Employment/Private Detective Requirement Paul. Goes from your Chief to NJSP Supt for approval. It's in 2C:58

Not sure how the hierarchy works for the CCW permit process. But arent there any chiefs that will grant a CCW permit in this state? If there was just one chief of police in the state of NJ that would grant the permits, wouldn't that be enough to break down the barrier?

Not sure how the hierarchy works for the CCW permit process. But arent there any chiefs that will grant a CCW permit in this state? If there was just one chief of police in the state of NJ that would grant the permits, wouldn't that be enough to break down the barrier?

 

The permit has to be approved at the local, state, and county level. So for example your chief could approve it, and the state could say no.

They passed a state law about 10 years ago, well before LEOSA that made Retirees Elligible for carry permits without the Employment/Private Detective Requirement Paul. Goes from your Chief to NJSP Supt for approval. It's in 2C:58

Yes, this I know. I was referring to the instance where the Retired LEO already has a permit that required him to apply within 6 months of retirement. He could also apply for a regular permit. How could he get denied?

I think the soft spot is that NJ is subjective and at the whim of a judge, not objective.

Not sure how the hierarchy works for the CCW permit process. But arent there any chiefs that will grant a CCW permit in this state? If there was just one chief of police in the state of NJ that would grant the permits, wouldn't that be enough to break down the barrier?

 

The permit has to be approved at the local, state, and county level. So for example your chief could approve it, and the state could say no.

 

Not exactly. Your police chief approves it, then it goes to a county judge for approval and to be issued. If you don't have a police chief, it starts at the NJSP Superintendant.

I think the soft spot is that NJ is subjective and at the whim of a judge, not objective.

 

 

 

Yup, that's the problem. Your ccw is ultimatly decided by one of the county judges rather then your town sheriff / police captain. Since all judges in this state are DARK BLUE, you're basically SOL. I do, however, believe McDonnald opens the doors to fighting the "need" part of the application.

 

 

If I could get the backing of either an attorny / major 2a org, I have no problem applying. However, I'm 23 and white with no real need aside from "self defense" -- not the best subject.

I'm 23 and white with no real need aside from "self defense" -- not the best subject.

 

Um, that makes you a perfect candidate. Self defense is a VERY real need.