Ok, its that time.

 

Vote for which you would rather have IN COMBAT (not paper punching)

 

I vote AK because:

-I'de rather it go bang and not be a tackdriver, than have it go click and not shoot anything

-Hitting a man sized target at ~300 meters is good enough for an assault rifle

-.223/5.56 is a varmint round... 7.62&5.45x39 were designed from the start with military use in mind.

 

http://www.madogre.com/interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm

 

Thats a must read for any AR lover

 

 

EDIT: Think of generic AKM/AK74 rifles and standard mil issue M16s, nothing fancy/exotic.

AK47 hands down...the ultimate in trench warfare reliability and durability.

There are a NUMBER of directions this could go in....

 

When you factor in the new gas piston AR's, they are much more reliable. You also didnt specify which AR, so if you went with an AR10, that would have the punch of a 7.62 AND have the distance. But you also said SHTF. You can carry around a lot more 5.56 than you can 7.62.

The AK74 was also specified which would put ammo weight and reliability in its favor.

 

The AK platform is def gangster as heck... if you saw somebody sporting one it would put fear in you. Someone with an AR.. ya def a little fear too... but AK stands badass mutha terrorist with bad intentions.

I have sold my ARs. I have bought back the one AK clone I was silly enough to sell in the first place. Does that tell you anything about my opinion?

 

I think the poodleshooter fans might lose this poll.

I choose AR. The myths of the AR unreliability are just that in my opinion. The flexability of the AR platform is superb.

 

NV,LD,Optics swaps even caliber changes, all easily within the operational capabilities of the platform. And accuracy, dont forget accuracy. Theres a metric ton of AAR's of the superior accuracy and its effects on the battle field. Anyone remember the execution inquiry in Falujah because the Marines got so many headshots? Anyone remember the Blackwater detail on the roof engaging at 800 meters with confirmed kills?

 

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4 ... nreliable/

 

http://www.defensereview.com/colt-m4-ca ... tographer/

 

IF I had to equip an army of conscripts or pressed into service war fighters with little training I WOULD ABSOLUTELY equip them with AK's. Its truly supurb in that role. Its not what I would choose for myself.

 

The Brits held trials attended by HK with their 417 and FN with the SCAR17s and the LMT MWS (a direct gas impingement gun). The LMT won and from what I hear this included winning in reliability!!!

 

Am I biesed, maybe. I seem to own the AR platform more than anything else. But Id bet my XCR is just a reliable too.

 

But in that ownership is a prime example of its flexability.

 

I have an AR thats good for over a 1000 yds

I have an AR thats great for 5 to 500, handy as hell and ready for anything that needs to be mounted to it.

I have an AR thats all set up for 5 to 800 with the ability to bring greater energy to the target.

I chose AR. Shocking, I know

 

I don't buy the reliability issues.. learn what works and what doesn't with an AR, and move on. I also don't buy the "poodle shooter" ammunition argument. Do your research and find rounds that work. As civilians, we are not limited by the constraints the military has with regards to ammo.

 

That said, I have nothing against AKs - I have a 5.45 Saiga. I keep it around in case the Zombies come and I need to give one of my dumbas$ neighbors a gun

Lets keep it to AR-15s, M16a1s, A2s, A3s, A4s. Unless you want to expand the "other side" into AK103s and such

 

Its true, the AR is more modular. But the AK can mount some stuff also. And keep in mind, the whole weight gain thing is moot with an AR when you have 12 pounds of crap on it. And that 12 pounds of crap is uselss when it JAMS!

How about the ACR? or SCAR? or ar we going basic AR15 vs AK47?

Basic!

SCAR and ACR arent close to a normal AR-15 mechanically

I choose an AR for all the reasons Shane listed.

From a combat/SHTF perspective, my training/experience is with the AR platform (which sums up my whole reasoning). To expand though, in the argument of mobility vs. firepower I would also go with my AR. Most engagements, while standoff is important, you're not looking at anymore then 200m max. Both platforms can easily touch this distance accurately (whether its center mass or CNS), but I'll take the extra mobility of an AR in 5.56. Further, there appears to be more accessibility to spare parts for ARs, as well as more reliable magazines. Not saying there aren't reliable AK magazines; but maybe because AR has been a yankee ingenuity, the technology to improve both the system and operator abilities favor the AR.

 

As for kitting out an AR... I'm in the group that thinks "less is more." Like helos, the more moving parts, the more susceptible it is to Murphy's Law. A fighting AR needs the system, working/reliable BUIS, and white light. Optics, VFGs, railed handguards are nice, not necessary. NVD w/ IR laser/light are novelties (as is thermo)-- though I wouldn't mind if I had the extra money to spend after ammunition and training

 

But hey, I'll always argue it comes down to preference and training. Put AKs or ARs into hands of people who don't have the necessary training for a combat/SHTF scenario, and its going to be a hot mess regardless.

To sum up Brother BBK's statement, dont fear my rifle, fear me for I am the weapon :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Its intereting you mention mags as an AR-15 positive. Everything ive read AND experienced is the opposite. AK mags have solid steel thick feed lips and steel bodies. Never heard of anybody having mag issues. On the otherhand, I've heard of AR mags having the floorplates randombly blow off during training, feed lips bend, just general finicky unreliable and un-sturdy. Why do you need fancy anti-tilt followers and such? And everyone saying "these mags are good, these mags are bad"? No such thing as bad mags on an AK unless the body is severely dented in (which would put any mag out of commision)

AK for me... cheap(you can get two for the price of a cheap ar), reliable, durable, good stopping power for the 7.62 round, reasonable accuracy.

INTERESTINGLY I recieved an AAR on a massive firefight across the border. The evidence at the scene seemed to indicate there was a problem with AK mags. The AAR focused on this specifically. Lets just say that on that day in that event, the boys with ak's succumbed to the boys with ar's in a REALLY REALLY BAD way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its intereting you mention mags as an AR-15 positive. Everything ive read AND experienced is the opposite. AK mags have solid steel thick feed lips and steel bodies. Never heard of anybody having mag issues. On the otherhand, I've heard of AR mags having the floorplates randombly blow off during training, feed lips bend, just general finicky unreliable and un-sturdy. Why do you need fancy anti-tilt followers and such? And everyone saying "these mags are good, these mags are bad"? No such thing as bad mags on an AK unless the body is severely dented in (which would put any mag out of commision)

You're probably right about AK magazines. One of my former colleagues preferred the AK system, and he always had issues with the different confiscated magazines (that had obviously seen their share of history). It was just a splinter of an observation though, and I agree that AK magazines probably aren't an issue.

As for AR issues, I've never seen the things you noted. I've seen guys rip off the base plates to magazines by accident, but they had already deteriorated the integrity of the magazine prior so I can't blame the magazine. The revisions to AR magazines I'll agree with were BS, but with those revisions I'm confident that a magazine I grab should be GTG. And to expound further, I do believe AR magazines are more accessible then AK magazines.

On the topic of mags that is a KEY issue why I dont dig AK's. I cant stand the hing in method of inserting a mag. It is the reason that I sold my DSA SA58c FAL. GREAT RIFLE!!!! I just cant run the OS

 

AK's dont have BHO either correct?

Interesting about the AAR. But you dont know the history of those mags. We go into firefights with nice, relativly new mags. Some of the mags serving the AKs in iraq are from the 50's and they work fine. So maybe in a that firefight the AKs had more problems, but maybe because those mags were dug up from the bottom of a swamp or somethin' lol

 

AK's dont have BHO either correct?

Nope - unless you modify the safety with a notch to manually hold the bolt open. Not necessarily a negative IMHO tho - so many of the problems people have with ARs are caused by people not closing the cover and allowing crud to get into the carrier.

mags were probably these

 

Yeah thats the other thing that irks me. A combat rifle should not need a dust cover, nor a foward assist. Its like duct taping a leaking pipe. fix the problem, dont just mask it/ make "go arounds"

On the topic of mags that is a KEY issue why I dont dig AK's. I cant stand the hing in method of inserting a mag. It is the reason that I sold my DSA SA58c FAL. GREAT RIFLE!!!! I just cant run the OS

 

AK's dont have BHO either correct?

 

 

You cant do this with an AK though

It was mutiple gunmen with LOTS of mags :twisted: As for foward assist, I love it. But I use it correctly and as intended :roll:

It was mutiple gunmen with LOTS of mags :twisted: As for foward assist, I love it. But I use it correctly and as intended :roll:

 

 

The design was obviously put there because the rifle cannot reliably go into full battery in certain situations by itself. Why should it need help, I thought its supposed to be automatic?

Well heres one example. Its a night op. The operator is about to engage. He wants to double check to make sure he has a round in battery. He pulls back on the charging handle a bit and sticks a finger in there to ensure a round and eases it foward to keep from amking noise. He pushes on the foward assist to insure the bolt is all the way foward and in battery.

 

AK's have foward assist too! Yours is just part of the bolt

Well heres one example. Its a night op. The operator is about to engage. He wants to double check to make sure he has a round in battery. He pulls back on the charging handle a bit and sticks a finger in there to ensure a round and eases it foward to keep from amking noise. He pushes on the foward assist to insure the bolt is all the way foward and in battery.

 

AK's have foward assist too! Yours is just part of the bolt

 

 

True, true. Although you should always know if its loaded :shock:

 

Speaking of which, if an AK ever had a round stick (which would never happen of course ) you stand the rifle upright and kick the handle open and round comes out. With AR...that would not only be very hard but you would almost definatly break something.

 

Us re-enactors call it the "m1 stomp" when someones gun chokes on a blank and they have to kick the gun open

Well we have our own dance called the pogo stick Similer in execution without the boot hehe.

 

Ill tell ya, Sometimes I check at matches. The bolt is so quick that if I dont see that flash of brass, I get worried the timer will go off and Ill go CLICK! So I do a little visual and bump the FA. Ive done it on my XCR and my FAL too which are more AK like than AR like.

AK - every Russian boy's dream!

if my life depended on it, AK over AR anytime...

AK has already proven itself time and time again... AR is still TRYING to prove itself. True with proper cleaning the AR/M16 is reliable. If SHTF...I hope you have the cleaning kit with ample supply to keep it clean.

AK has already proven itself time and time again... AR is still TRYING to prove itself. True with proper cleaning the AR/M16 is reliable. If SHTF...I hope you have the cleaning kit with ample supply to keep it clean.

 

 

Trying to prove how?

 

There are a LOT of people no longer on this planet due to an altercation with an AR!

And theres even more people missing from the planet due to the AK!