Does anybody really know the answer?

 

Let's say I have a low end $350 to $550 brand new semi auto. I shoot it on a rest at 7 yards. Perfect sight picture.

 

What accuracy can I expect from factory specs? No not the group precision but the accuracy. The center of the group will be within +/- x inches from the bullseye. What is x?

 

For self defense it doesn't matter if I hit the nose or teeth but I still want to know what to expect based on factory specs.

 

And then what would say $1000 buy me in this regard?

 

Danke,

Al Miz.

 

PS Just in case - I'm talkin fixed factory sights here.

Edited November 30, 201015 yr by almiz111

Offhand I can shoot my HK USP compact and Browning HiPower into 1-2" group @ 7 yards without too much of an issue if I take my time.

From what I've been told, modern quality semi-autos are more accurate than the people pulling the trigger.

From what I've been told, modern quality semi-autos are more accurate than the people pulling the trigger.

 

Ditto. My guns are more accurate than I am.

At 7 yards even the worst pistol won't be terrible.

 

There are really a bunch of different answers to your question but the fundamental issue is that price doesn't reflect accuracy that much. Caliber affects accuracy and the mechanism matters(Blowback, recoil, gas operated). With moving barrel semis, how well the barrel locks back into position matters, so on those guns, chances are good that more expensive guns are mechanically more precise and hence shot after shot are more precise. The trigger matters but some expensive guns have heavy triggers intentionally and that will clearly affect accuracy.

 

It would be more helpful if you explained what it is you'd like to get done and if the real question is "I want the most accurate pistol for $500" you'll get a better answer.

How would caliber affect accuracy?

How would caliber affect accuracy?

 

In what respect? Compare a .308 to a 30.06. The .308 is consistently more accurate.

 

The charge, the bullet's drag coefficient, the velocity, etc. all these things affect accuracy. Compare a worst case like the FN 5.7. to a .22. at 25 yards. Do you have any doubt which will be more accurate?

Well... we are talking pistol calibers here. But to use your example, I know more than a few that would dispute your 308 vs 30-06 claim. The projo's for 30-06 and 308 are the same so how do you get a better BC? In your 22 claim, again I dispute your claim. I know of several that have done bolt guns in 5.7 for handy little varmint rigs that have supurb accuracy. I would say that my PS90 is more accurate than my Ruger 10/22. At the extreme edges of accuracy there are case designs that can give a bit of advantage. But outside of that when comparing apples to apples, caliber is moot. The only affect velocity has on accuracy is going transonic. Otherwise there is no affect on accuracy.

Also keep in mind that ballistic coefficient doesnt make one round more accurate than another. It more affects the shooters ability and enhances their margin of error.

Well... we are talking pistol calibers here. But to use your example, I know more than a few that would dispute your 308 vs 30-06 claim.

 

Fair enough. It's not born out at rifle competitions but your mileage apparently varies.

 

In your 22 claim, again I dispute your claim. I know of several that have done bolt guns in 5.7 for handy little varmint rigs that have supurb accuracy.

 

What claim did I make with .22? I didn't and yet you assumed the .22 was more accurate, well, because it is. Specific guns vs a 10/22? A 10/22 isn't very accurate unless it's been worked.

 

 

But outside of that when comparing apples to apples, caliber is moot. The only affect velocity has on accuracy is going transonic. Otherwise there is no affect on accuracy.

 

The faster a bullet travels, the more spin it needs to have to impart stability as it moves through fluid. It most certainly makes a difference. Every caliber and every bullet has a ballistic sweet spot. You are suggesting this isn't the case?

 

If your overall complaint about my post is that caliber has a small effect on accuracy, that is probably true.

Let me just say Im not trying to give you a hard time. Just friendly intelligent discussion. I focused on that comment because I thought I might learn something I didnt know.

 

What competitions are you refering to? I think its more a matter pf practacality. I say this because I have seen some die hard 30-06 shooters shoot amazing long range groups out of their custom rigs. So the point is its capable. But as far as practicle, I would much rather work the bolt of a short action than a long action. But keep in mind that with todays powders in a bolt gun, the 30-06 has a volume advantage!

 

The spin has to match the projos length and weight. It will not fly right if it doesnt. For example 1X12 barrels tend to not do so well with 300grn projo's out of a 338lm. 1x10 or 1x9.X does better because its better matched to the bullet length and weight. But it will shoot 250's fine. So in that regard, spin, bullet length, and bullet weight all need to work together. If you fire it at a greater velocity it will still spin at the rate the barrel imparts to it. So yes I am saying that a requirement for more spin at greater velocity is incorrect.

 

On the 22 topic, this is where apples to apples come in. A ruger 10/22 and a ps90 is a fair comparison as production semiauto rifles. But what you cant do is compare an Anschutz to a PS90. But can i build a comparable bolt action bench rest rifle around a 5.7? Sure I could. Think about how accurate 6mm br is.

Does anybody really know the answer?

 

Let's say I have a low end $350 to $550 brand new semi auto. I shoot it on a rest at 7 yards. Perfect sight picture.

 

What accuracy can I expect from factory specs? No not the group precision but the accuracy. The center of the group will be within +/- x inches from the bullseye. What is x?

 

For self defense it doesn't matter if I hit the nose or teeth but I still want to know what to expect based on factory specs.

 

And then what would say $1000 buy me in this regard?

 

Danke,

Al Miz.

 

PS Just in case - I'm talkin fixed factory sights here.

 

There are a couple things that I see wrong here.....one being what everyone else has said, the firearm is often much more accurate than the user. Find a pistol you are comfortable holding and shooting, then get good practice time with it....THAT will be the most accurate pistol for you. Two, "nose or teeth"? You dont want to aim for the head in a home defense situation. Center of mass is your best bet. If you aim for the head and you miss, you miss the person who is threatening your life. If you aim for the center of the chest, and miss, you could hit any of the other organs in his chest other than the heart. The torso is MUCH bigger than the head, and a much better target in a home defense situation. Third, if you are practicing with this to defend yourself and your loved ones, you dont want to practice shooting at a rest at 7 yards. Measure the longest straight distance in your home, and go with that distance. My friend has a house that you could easily practice 20 yards for, my house is 7 yards......everybodies house is different. Dont practice shooting at a rest, taking your time with your shots. Find a range that allows you to AT LEAST double tap, better yet a range that will let you shoot as quickly as you want. You wont have time to rest your arms, and aim slowly when someone is trying to harm you.

 

The spin has to match the projos length and weight. It will not fly right if it doesnt.

 

Bullet weight and twist have to be matched, sure. Under or over stablizing a bullet will degrade accuracy significantly.

If you fire it at a greater velocity it will still spin at the rate the barrel imparts to it. So yes I am saying that a requirement for more spin at greater velocity is incorrect.

 

If you fire a bullet at higher velocity, greater spin is induced with the same twist. MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM. Increase MV, increase RPM. If you're saying that you don't need more twist at higher velocity, I agree. You may even need less twist.

My thinking is that the higher velocity will of course cover more ground faster so in effect it will be self cancelling keeping the twist rate constant. RPM increases but so does the rateat which the projo covers distance. So it will stil spin 1 rpm for every 10 inches traveled, just the time of flight changes. I dont know this to be fact, just my own theorizing. I have a program that Brian Litz(Balistrician for Berger Bullets) gave me that calculates bullet stability. I can give you a copy if your interested.

There are a couple things that I see wrong here.....one being what everyone else has said, the firearm is often much more accurate than the user. Find a pistol you are comfortable holding and shooting, then get good practice time with it....THAT will be the most accurate pistol for you. Two, "nose or teeth"? You dont want to aim for the head in a home defense situation. Center of mass is your best bet. If you aim for the head and you miss, you miss the person who is threatening your life. If you aim for the center of the chest, and miss, you could hit any of the other organs in his chest other than the heart. The torso is MUCH bigger than the head, and a much better target in a home defense situation. Third, if you are practicing with this to defend yourself and your loved ones, you dont want to practice shooting at a rest at 7 yards. Measure the longest straight distance in your home, and go with that distance. My friend has a house that you could easily practice 20 yards for, my house is 7 yards......everybodies house is different. Dont practice shooting at a rest, taking your time with your shots. Find a range that allows you to AT LEAST double tap, better yet a range that will let you shoot as quickly as you want. You wont have time to rest your arms, and aim slowly when someone is trying to harm you.

 

********************

Thanks vjf. Actually I agree 100%. The "teeth/nose" thing was only an example. I think you should do 20 push ups and 20 jumping jacks - then grab the gun and try for two in the chest offhand.

 

Thanks to all for the great answers but the tech aspect went in one head and out da other. I am trying to find out when a handgun would be typically out of spec per factory specs. So I shoot it from a machine and complain to SW or whomever that it is 2inch (or some number) off bullseye. Then they answer that the manufacturing tolerances (upper assembly, sights, etc.) allow for that performance. So don't bother us!!! You don't have a problem. HA.

 

Maybe another way to ask this. Based on shooting it, how do you know when your gun needs to visit the factory?

 

Thanks again,

almiz111

Sorry for the sidetrack. I suppose a 3" group at 7 to 10 yards is servicable. Here is 10 rounds out of my 1911 free standing shooting at a good pace at either 7 or 10 yds, I dont remember which. My pistol is very accurate though. If you were to have it built by a reputable smith I think it would be in the 2500 to 3k catagory.