Just dont go to far back Axe!

If you get into one of these situations you will develop tunnelvision...you have to train to keep your head on a swivel...most will point shoot, you'll loose a lot of coordination...another reason for training with the type of firearm you would carry, i.e. 1911, safety, no safety....during my dkydiving career I saw a lot of people in emergency situations do stupid things because they didn't continually go through the emergency proceedures for different types of malfunctions...some worked out o.k. some didn't. I believe in training...training...training... I shoot some IDPA too and it's a lot of fun but they seem to place more emphasis on speed than accuracy. Many of the winners and top scorers will have great time but a lot of misses or 'points down' The only problem is that with a point down you only loose 1/2 a second off your time. In a real life situation I feel that in probably most situations it is better to take an extra second and get good hits because it is going to be harder to get good hits under the stress of a real life/death situation. If IDPA would take at least a second off for each point down more shooters would be inclined to do it right...go slower and be assured more hits....just my 2 cents...

Cub, I understand what you are saying but see it actually in the exact opposite way. Ill save my accurate shots for my follow up shots(unless we are talking a considerable distance but that scenario is unlikely). I want the fastest hit on the BG as possible for my first shot to start my chain of advantage. If the BG is hit, even non vital, he is less effective than before. I value speed over accracy for the first shot because the BG could get lucky if he is faster and catch me right in the brain bucket with that first shot.

 

 

To quote a sig line of another, "If your in a fair fight, your tactics suck!"

Here is stage 1 from the IDPA match yesturday. (Sidebar for clarity, I consider a hammer 2 shots, 1 sight picture and a double tap individual aimed shots.) You can see the difference in a double tap for the targets at distance and a hammer for the closer targets or targets that have a less than 1 second exposure. I had no misses on this stage. The value here is knowing what distance you can do which at. I am shooting a full size .45 1911.

 

in self defense fighting.. you resort to your most basic skill sets when attacked... that is why you train the same way over and over again.. to condition your body to do those things as second nature.. fine motor skills go out the window.. I assume that an active shooting like that will go about the same... it will likely be over before you can even figure out whats happening..ideally at the end... you are still alive..

In the NRA LE Instructor courses we do a lot of multiple target drills. Consider a couple of things, just looking at time spent versus round count.

 

Highest threat (proximity / weapon / advantage of cover etc) all need to be calculated in a nano-second. So, the highest threat gets 2 or three rounds as quickly as possible and then hit #2 threat with a couple as you are constantly moving off line with two or three round pops. At this point, you better be scrambling for cover while engaging any other targets. Check yourself for leaks and drop a fresh mag in. Stuff the partially spent mag in your pocket. With shots fired odds are the PD are going to be arriving at some point. IF you have a good hiding / defensive position, wait for the PD to arrive and don't do anything stupid.

 

The thought is this, if you are on target, how fast can you put two or three shots in a BG while aiming once or having one sight picture? The alternative is...one for you, and one for you, come back to target one, hey where did he go? Hmmm, okay, now on to target two, then three, wait, did one move again?

 

Take each threat out of the fight as quickly as you can. In KM, we train the same way. If you just punch someone and move onto the next target, he is going to be a problem later on. Break him immediately, break him so bad, that you take the fight out of him. Then, start breaking the next perp. So what if you might take a couple of punches, then you break the guy punching you. This method had served me very well working at clubs.

 

We do drills while walking and engaging three targets, each one has a small rectangle box drawn on it. One has a pelvis, torso and head shots. We have to put two into each box before moving onto the next target. Once you get the hang of it, you'd be surprised how quick you can double tap once your sights are lined up. The last time I was at Dix with the FBI, they were stating that even the guys who shot in the 90% range during qualifications, drop to below 30% during a stress fire. So, every third bullet from an accomplished LEO hits, how confident are you with just shooting a threat once and then coming back to him. If you engage, TAKE them out of the fight.

 

Another stat shows LEO's are trained wrong with engagement distances. IIRC, something like 80% of shootings happen in low light and under 10 feet. So, your sight picture is going to be a flash. That is why, training, training, training is so important, important, important. Most qualifications take place standing upright squared against the target in a lighted range with a very small percentage of shots being under 10 feet. What LEO is going to engage a BG at 20 to 25 yards? Get cover and get on the radio. More training needs to be provided from real world postions, under a chair, on your back, on your belly, one knee up, support side shooting, obstructed view shooting. etc. Punching holes in a Q-Target ain't squat.

Regarding sight picture, I go with another article from years ago, possibly Ayoob as well. It stated that the grip of the handgun (it did not speak on long guns) should be at the angle where you can feel that your index finger will naturally fall in line the way it would if you were to simply point at something. It had a little exercise where you put your hand up and point at something and then check to see accuracy. I tried it and was convinced. So when I looked for a handgun I went for the one that had the grip at an angle where my index finger almost naturally points, or would be if it weren't on the trigger.

This I practice at short distances. For short range there is no reason to try to shoot a guy in the eye, just point at the torso. When I first started doing this it felt very natural and I consistantly get hits where I want without any sightng at all up to about 15 feet. And this is using a target that I consider as wide as a man's profile, since I think it would be very rare that a person is 100% chest forward to you. From practice I know I shoot a little low and left this way so I feel that pointing with the index finger and compensating the aim would do me very well under stress and movement since it is very little to remember.

 

I settled on the Glock for the best grip angle for me. My Ruger Mark III does not work in this aspect at all.

I train Mozambique drills every time I go to the range. Always both eyes open. The first two shots are purely point shooting and at 7 yards I can put them both in a target's 10 ring. The third round is a flash sight picture to the dome. I figured if I made this second nature, I'd have a better chance in a one-on-one scenario when my life is on the line.

 

In a multiple engagement, that mozambique drill would have to wait. 2-3 seconds is too long to spend on one target. I've read the Book Of Five Rings more times than I care to count, and many of Musashi's teachings still hold up in modern combat. Control the space, make it so it is difficult for more than one target to engage you at a time. Engage in order from the highest threat to the lowest.

I would strongly suggest taking a good FOF (force on force) class such as ECQC by SouthNarc (Shivworks), or from Chris Fry (MDTS).

 

It will entirely change your outlook. It is one thing to theorize what you will do based on square range drills, and another to actually try to shoot a living moving opponent/opponents that is/are shooting back, trying to stab you, or trying to take your gun.

 

You must move, and probably wont use your sights at all B)

I don't know what to say on how I will react in a "situation". But I do know EVERYONE will be addressed. Several times. We can all sit here and say how we think we will react, but we really don't know. LEO, former/current military, and CCW's who have been involved in some kind of a life threatening situation or war where they needed to use their firearms for self defense are probably the best to tell us what happened, and how they reacted. Did they resort to their training? Were their actions part of experience? The rest of us can only speculate that whatever training or skills we have will guide our actions and hopefully get us out of the situation we are in.

Also the whole cover concept is a good theory, but in reality how good is the cover we choose to go to?

The answer to that is understanding the difference between cover and concealment. Fireproof filing cabinet, cover, sheetrock, concealment. Wood burning stove, cover, hollow core door, concealment.

Well Shane as unconventenial as this sounds. If distance permits and I have no other choice I'm a proponent of going prone.

#1 limits exposure of your vital areas #2 Fucks with the head of the threat big time. Down side... you are commited to your position.

Well Shane as unconventenial as this sounds. If distance permits and I have no other choice I'm a proponent of going prone.

#1 limits exposure of your vital areas #2 Fucks with the head of the threat big time. Down side... you are commited to your position.

 

I hate when people in Call of Duty do that! Every time you shoot at them they dive prone. Sometimes they get me, but most of the time I get a headshot on them!

The answer to that is understanding the difference between cover and concealment. Fireproof filing cabinet, cover, sheetrock, concealment. Wood burning stove, cover, hollow core door, concealment.

That all sounds great, but what do you do when you don't have these items available for cover? And what if you can't conceal yourself?

??? You shoot and move silly!

You will notice on stages where there was no cover, you had to keep moving or you got a procedural violation. Shoot and move, shoot and move. Work towards cover. No cover, shoot and move, then RUN!

From my Modern Warfare 2 training, I would typically shoot at the closest enemies until dry, then switch to a pistol, and proceed to use my Commando perk to stab the last guy. Then find cover and reload.

Is that the official paramedic position? Drumming up more business?...

My peeps gotta practice. The new students will be hitting the street soon. Believe me, if I inflicted the wound on a BG I will not be patching it up.

I remember an Ayoob article that pointed out manuever and its importance in engagimg multiple targets. His contention was that in that kind of engaement you should be moving, and your movent should try to have the closer guy mask the further guy.

So to use the example here ( and I assume "screwdriver guy" and "gun guy" are in a field of sorts where there is nothing to hide behind) would be that you would move sideways until gun guy's line of sight is blocked by screwdriver guy.

 

This seems like a plausable tactic in many instances, even hand to hand.

 

This.

 

From playing lots of paintball, dynamic targets are hard to hit. Most people don't know how to lead worth a damn when firing a gun. Move laterally while facing the target. If they're stationary and you're mobile, you can hit them easier than they can hit you.

This.

 

From playing lots of paintball, dynamic targets are hard to hit. Most people don't know how to lead worth a damn when firing a gun. Move laterally while facing the target. If they're stationary and you're mobile, you can hit them easier than they can hit you.

Yes, but I have seen plenty of shooters who cannot hit the broad side of a barn while moving.

Yes, but I have seen plenty of shooters who cannot hit the broad side of a barn while moving.

 

True. But it takes practice that's not easy to do with a gun in this state.

True. But it takes practice that's not easy to do with a gun in this state.

Actually it is.

Ron, its a valid point and raises the question. Do I count on the law of averages that your probably a bad shot and stand still and take the shot and count on speed and hope for your miss should you get the shot off first or do I move which could delay and make my own shot more difficult? I have seen arguments for both sides of the fence. Now granted the picture I have painted is probably one of the least likely scenarios to present its self unless your in theater. But I used it to isolate the topic of discussion.

 

Heres what I think.

 

1 Target Mos Drill

2 targets, 1 on each then return unless they are far apart or far away.

3 targets, 1 on each and then shoot for muzzle flash!

 

I stick to the one on each beacue I really think that even a fast shooter just cant do it fast enough!!!

 

Even looking at my own video, if I was facing me and my own mediocre skills, I would easily drill me as the single shooter by the time I got to target 2 if I was shooter 3 on the other side!

As for practice, even in NJ I have had no trouble. I fired about 2000 rounds this summer easily. 90% of that was at shooting matches. That is exactly why I like IDPA. Were else can you get someone to set up everything, include targets and steel, and shoot all day for 10 dollars!!!! Even if you have a disqualified gun and you have your own ideas on tactics, just take the penalty and do it your way. You wont be classified and you likley wont win, but you will get to see what shooting is like outside of standing in a lane shooting a hanging target. Most find it very humbling and MOST wont go back to static shooting unless they really have no interest in defensive shooting. Many ask why I dont really shoot when I meet up with everyone at BA. Im not there to shoot really, just to meet everyone. That type of shooting doesnt do anything for me other than maybe a weapons familiarity indoc. Competition WILL make you a more effective shooter. There is no theory in that. Its just that some competitions may cause you to pick up dangerous habits. Thats what this discussion is really about. But even if you picked up a bad habit or two, you will still be FAR ahead of someone that doesnt. I cant even begin to count how many people I have either brought or witnessed at a match that thought they were a good shooter because of their qual at the PD or their own static experiences that dont even make it through half the stage because they are stuck on targets they just cant hit. One of the things competition provides is a little bit of stress indoc. By no means a match for a real gunfight but certainly an indicator of what happens to you under stress due to being on the clock with 20 or so peers watching you! It has value. Where does the stress manafest its self? Concentration, mental malfunctions, and reloads! You simply would not believe how many shooters start searching every pocket for a mag instead of their mag pouch! Why? Stress caused them to stick their hands in pockets they always look for things in!

Part of the problem is that there is no "set" scenario that you will encounter other than being in your home. In your home, you know the layout, you can get to an area where it is (I HATE saying this) tactically in your favor. Anywhere else, there are so many variables that are working against you. Also 99% percent of the time (IMHO)the BG will have the advantage. You don't know when someone is going to attempt to cause you harm. What do you do? How do you prepare? How will you react to gunfire directed at you? I recall reading about or watching some documentaries about gangsters in the 20's and 30's. And some of the more brazen ones were former Army guys who were in WW1 and were "used" to being shot at. Personally I have no problem with gunfire in a controlled setting, but I have yet to be in a situation where I am being shot at. So other than possibly soiling my shorts, I don't know how I will respond. Also lest we forget, for the most part we live in NJ. And it will be real tough (at this time) for most of us to be able to CCW outside of our home or business.

Again I have only shot 1 IDPA match so my opinion is not from experience, but the 1 thing that I don't particularly care for is that there is only 1 "correct" way to shoot a stage. I understand that the correct way is part of how the sport is supposed to be run. But it kind of prevents you from figuring out the "best" for "you" to shoot the stage. So you will see the majority of the people shoot the exact same way over and over again. The ones that don't are probably going to be penalized and not do as well. Again I am not knocking it because that is how IDPA separates itself other shooting sports, mainly USPSA. But it is somewhat robotic. What separates the shooters is how accurate and fast they are compared to everyone else. If you are not concerned about winning, you can go to any kind of match and shoot which ever way you want, just as long as you are safe.

As for practice, even in NJ I have had no trouble. I fired about 2000 rounds this summer easily. 90% of that was at shooting matches. That is exactly why I like IDPA. Were else can you get someone to set up everything, include targets and steel, and shoot all day for 10 dollars!!!! Even if you have a disqualified gun and you have your own ideas on tactics, just take the penalty and do it your way. You wont be classified and you likley wont win, but you will get to see what shooting is like outside of standing in a lane shooting a hanging target. Most find it very humbling and MOST wont go back to static shooting unless they really have no interest in defensive shooting. Many ask why I dont really shoot when I meet up with everyone at BA. Im not there to shoot really, just to meet everyone. That type of shooting doesnt do anything for me other than maybe a weapons familiarity indoc. Competition WILL make you a more effective shooter. There is no theory in that. Its just that some competitions may cause you to pick up dangerous habits. Thats what this discussion is really about. But even if you picked up a bad habit or two, you will still be FAR ahead of someone that doesnt. I cant even begin to count how many people I have either brought or witnessed at a match that thought they were a good shooter because of their qual at the PD or their own static experiences that dont even make it through half the stage because they are stuck on targets they just cant hit. One of the things competition provides is a little bit of stress indoc. By no means a match for a real gunfight but certainly an indicator of what happens to you under stress due to being on the clock with 20 or so peers watching you! It has value. Where does the stress manafest its self? Concentration, mental malfunctions, and reloads! You simply would not believe how many shooters start searching every pocket for a mag instead of their mag pouch! Why? Stress caused them to stick their hands in pockets they always look for things in!

 

This is true. I forgot about IDPA matches. However, aren't the targets still stationary?

It sucks simunitions are expensive to utilize. They'll teach you the most about gunfighting, especially in terms of being hit. Paintball is a good poor-mans substitute, as is airsoft.

 

IDPA is the closest you might get to using your real guns in a real fight seeing as it allows you to run, gun, reload, run, gun, cover, etc. I'd like to try it. From the videos, it seems fun.

Actually it is.

 

Yepp, forgot about IDPA...