I've never considered using slugs or sabot rounds for home defense, but I was wondering what are the options out there besides 00 and 000 buck? I know Remington and Winchester have some new buck-n-ball stuff but what home defense slugs do you guys use? Recommend? Practice with?

I'm not real familiar with HD slugs, but I know that I would never use my hunting rounds inside my house. I've seen them kill deer @ 200yds, which is a bit more over penetration than I'm comfortable with. I use 2 3/4 and 3" 12ga sabot slugs.

Thanks j0n, but those are for hunting deer. I'm looking for "tactical" applications. Like Zombies and stuff.

I'm not really a slug guy, but I've had good luck with Federal LE Tactical Truball rifled slugs - I prefer the low recoil variety

Thanks j0n, but those are for hunting deer. I'm looking for "tactical" applications. Like Zombies and stuff.

 

Deer, Zombies, whatever...

Centurion Multi-Defense (aka Buck and Ball).

 

Kills zombies dead (again).

 

Not a big fan of slugs for indoors, they penetrate a lot of sheet rock:

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

 

Lessons learned:

1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

 

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

 

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

 

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

 

...

 

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon. ...

 

However, I keep a couple of slugs in the external shell holders on my shotty. I can think of some situations where you would want them:

 

- Baddie is wearing body armor, and you want to either stun him with an armor hit, or take him down with a pelvic hit.

 

- You want to make a "long distance" (in shotgun terms) shot.

Centurion Multi-Defense (aka Buck and Ball).

 

Got some of those - I consider them "magnums". They kick like a mule - highly suggest you try them out on the range before loading them up for HD.

The Box-O-Truth stuff is not to be taken literally. Look at how closely those drywall boards are stacked next to each other. Is there a house anywhere with architecture designed like that? What it fails to take into account is that as soon as shot (or slug) meets resistance, it starts shedding speed so that by the time it impacts the second series of drywall (e.g. 8 feet or so away in a real home) it's traveling at a significant slower speed than if the drywall was right next to each other.

 

I'm not saying their study is to be completely dismissed, just saying that it's not as "real" as people think it to be. That space between each series of obstacles is significant because the speed drop within that space has to be accounted for.

Point still stands - if you're worried about how many walls the rounds are going to go through, you're safer with 00 buck than slugs.

I use slugs to take out bear...dont you think thats overkill?

A .45 or some buckshot is waaaay more effective in an HD situation..unless you have about 300 yards between you and the neighbor...

There are a few "tactical" options out there. Winchester PDX1 has a buck-n-ball as well. I'll get a few boxes of what Caine posted and check the googles to see what else pops up.

I've never considered using slugs or sabot rounds for home defense, but I was wondering what are the options out there besides 00 and 000 buck? I know Remington and Winchester have some new buck-n-ball stuff but what home defense slugs do you guys use? Recommend? Practice with?

Traditional Foster-style slugs would certainly offer too much penetration. Sabot slugs are true 200 yard solutions and although they may utilize heavy pistol or muzzleloader bullets, they are still launched at even higher velocities than a typical Foster slug and would not be applicable. Buckshot is probably your best solution if you are concerned about excessive penetration. #1-buck is supposed to be good for a number of situations, while #4-buck may be better suited for a home situation. Depending upon velocity and powder charge weight, a standard one-ounce payload can generate at minimum 22 ft./lbs. of free recoil energy from a seven-pound shotgun. It gets worse as velocities are boosted with heavier powder charges and increases in payloads. A 1 1/4 oz. payload in the same weight gun generates 34.65 ft./lbs. of free recoil energy. That's gonna smart at both ends.

 

Google and read some of Dr. Martin Fackler's and others' work on wound trauma and wound ballistics. Some of Fackler's data is old, but still relevant and interesting. Scroll down in this attached link to the wound channels Dr. Fackler observed and documented with various loads. http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

 

How devastating are Foster-style slugs? I don't know what zombies are, but for deer I've used Foster slugs for years and they are pretty lethal within their ballistic confines. I started using the old Foster that weighed 7/8 oz. back in the early 70's and today still use the standard 1-ounce Foster or the Brenneke. Any deer I've hit broadside with any weight Foster or Brenneke slug I've never recovered. They simply whistle through. Most deer hit are DRT or they travel a few steps and expire. The closest range I've taken an anchoring shot was 15 yards, the farthest was 60 yards. Of all the deer I've shot, I've only ever recovered two fired Foster slugs. And both traveled through a lot of deer before coming to rest. I still have them.

 

The 1 oz. Foster slug on the left is a Federal. It broke the left shoulder of a 5-pointer quartering towards me at 40 yds. back in 1979. The slug was recovered just under the skin of the right hindquarter, passing almost lengthwise through the deer. The middle Foster slug is a Winchester, taken from a 6-pointer in 1991. Shot was from a treestand angling downward as the deer was walking away from me at about 30 yds. Slug entered and broke the spine forward of the backstraps, passed through the left lung, broke a forward rib and was found just under the skin at the base of the neck. Recovered grain weights from left to right: (Left) 428.2 grs. with an expanded frontal area of .756, (Center) 417.8grs. with an expanded frontal area of .946, (Right) 439 grs.; an unfired Foster with its original diameter of .680. (Yes, I know an ounce is 437.5 grs., but this Remington Foster slug weighs 439 grs. So much for ammunition uniformity.)

Thanks for that reply Parker, fascinating "real world" results from slugs. They are amazingly powerful rounds at short distances.

 

Traditional Foster-style slugs would certainly offer too much penetration. ...

 

The 1 oz. Foster slug on the left is a Federal. It broke the left shoulder of a 5-pointer quartering towards me at 40 yds. back in 1979. The slug was recovered just under the skin of the right hindquarter, passing almost lengthwise through the deer. ...

 

Wow.

Some may have seen this post on another site regarding wound channels in ballistic gel and on game species with Foster slugs and buckshot. Lengthy but an interesting read. Wound profiles

Okay, I undertand everyone has opinions on what shotshell design is excellent for home defense. Some have preferences for one load and others like another. I have all flavors of 00 Buck and 000 Buck right now, but was wondering what tactical slugs others use.

Besides the Centurion, there's another "buck 'n ball" out there, the Winchester PDX 12. I have some but haven't shot it yet. I did poke fun at the marketing:

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21019-just-got-some-magic-shotty-ammo/

 

Video of it in action:

 

 

There's also a relatively new series of "expanding" slugs out there (no experience with them, nor have I read anything):

 

Just a guess at legality but the first one is birdshot, next is OO and a slug after that. Alternate, do whatever it takes to survive.

Just a guess at legality but the first one is birdshot, next is OO and a slug after that. Alternate, do whatever it takes to survive.

 

Save the birdshot for little birds. It will do nothing more than piss off an attacker. Make the first round #1 buck.

Save the birdshot for little birds. It will do nothing more than piss off an attacker. Make the first round #1 buck.

 

Wha? Are you serious? J0n, bird shot at in-the-room distances is devistating. Next time your at the range, throw in a load of 8 shot in a 12 gauge and put the man sized target at 3 yards. Watch what happens to the man.

I ordered some of the Remington Home Defense load and the Winchester PDX1 stuff from Cabela's (Thanks maks!) since it's a little of both in regards to slugs/buck. I'll see what else I can find and throw some heavy lead down range!

Wha? Are you serious? J0n, bird shot at in-the-room distances is devistating. Next time your at the range, throw in a load of 8 shot in a 12 gauge and put the man sized target at 3 yards. Watch what happens to the man.

 

You mean, watch what happens to the target paper.

 

Paper does not equal flesh/muscle/bone/organs.

You mean, watch what happens to the target paper.

 

Paper does not equal flesh/muscle/bone/organs.

 

We are talking close up, not 20 yards away. At close ranges the pellets haven't spread yet, they are all basically in a tight blob. Shoot someone in the face or chest with that and they'll ask for more.

 

I don't use birdshot for anything but clays and breaking in guns, but some people do use it for home defense.

...At close ranges the pellets haven't spread yet, they are all basically in a tight blob. Shoot someone in the face or chest with that and they'll ask for more. ...

 

Yeah, I'd agree that not many would shrug off a face full of bird shot. But depending on the person, they just may only get really pissed if hit elsewhere with it:

 

When To Use Birdshot

A friend of AR15.com sends this(to The Box O' Truth):

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

 

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds."

 

I have no personal experience hitting anything but targets and clays with a shotgun, so I can only go by what I read. What I read leads me to believe that if I want to *STOP* a human-sized animal, bird shot is not the load to use.

There's always a flip side to this discussion. I'm sure there are people six feet under due to birdshot. But, that's for another thread.

 

Back on topic, Slugs!

There's always a flip side to this discussion. I'm sure there are people six feet under due to birdshot. But, that's for another thread.

 

Back on topic, Slugs!

ok they make federal tactical slugs (le127rs) they should serve your purpose well.as for the bird shot i would not like to be on the recieving end at 10 yrds it will punch a 2 to 4 inch hole in what ever it hits .

Box of Truth

 

Birdshot as a Defense Load

I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

 

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

 

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

 

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

 

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

Hmmmmm, I think I might have to do a little testing of my own to see what each type of shotshell will do. Thanks Reed, I'll get a box of whatever I can find this Sunday at Cabela's.

I have Remmy #4, #1, 0, 00, 000. We can test it out next time

I have Remmy #4, #1, 0, 00, 000. We can test it out next time

 

Good, I've got some 8 shot, buck-n-ball, and slugs. Now, what to shoot at?