Just hypothetically throwing this out there...

 

Many FFL's have one price for up to 5 transfers per engagement. Of course only 1 NICS fee as well.

 

Is it breaking any laws if say a person orders 5 rifles to the FFL/dealer, then has them transferred to him all for the one FFL charge + NICS. Then turns around and sells 4 of them to NJ citizens with valid FID's and NJDL's. Would this constitute a straw purchase or other illegal activity. I can't find anything in the statutes that is clear on it.

 

Hypothetical purpose is saving on FFL + NICS fees for a group buy.

First of all, he probably shouldn't be making any money off a sale like that. After that, I don't know. It's come up before. I think the answer is that it is a straw purchase. Not for any ill-will, but buying from an FFL with the sole purpose of delivering to a second person is probably a straw purchase. Also, consider that you are trying to avoid the NICs check and FFL transfer. I know it's only to save cash, and not to commit a crime or beat "the system," but it doesn't look good.

 

I have never looked into this in detail. I hope somebody tells me I am wrong. But I did bring this up in the past for discussion among some very knowledgeable people and I was very dissapointed in what they had to say and how they justified it to me.

Just hypothetically throwing this out there...

 

Many FFL's have one price for up to 5 transfers per engagement. Of course only 1 NICS fee as well.

 

Is it breaking any laws if say a person orders 5 rifles to the FFL/dealer, then has them transferred to him all for the one FFL charge + NICS. Then turns around and sells 4 of them to NJ citizens with valid FID's and NJDL's. Would this constitute a straw purchase or other illegal activity. I can't find anything in the statutes that is clear on it.

 

Hypothetical purpose is saving on FFL + NICS fees for a group buy.

 

I think this would constitute illegal arms dealing more than a straw purchase. You can't just buy and sell 5 rifles without an FFL.

I think this would constitute illegal arms dealing more than a straw purchase. You can't just buy and sell 5 rifles without an FFL.

 

That's a fuzzy area. You certainly can buy firearms, even multiple firearms, with full intention of selling them for a higher price.

 

When does it become a business? I don't know. But if you are restocking, it is certainly a firearms business.

This sale would probably be illegal, but I think the definition of a "straw purchase" is when a person with the legal right to purchase a firearm does so for the purpose of providing that firearm to a person who does not have the legal right to purchase a firearm.

 

If the first buyer buys a rifle legally, and then resells it to a second person who could have legally purchased the rifle in the first place (because they have matching, FID, DL, etc), then it's not a straw purchase.

So it seems it could or probably is illegal. I suppose there is a line drawn somewhere , in which you need to be a FFL dealer after so many transactions. I just can't find that information.

 

Like if you buy a bunch of milsurp from a show, then turn around and sell them one by one for profit as another example. Is that illegal?

 

edit: or does it make sense if you get a profit or not. Like if you sell it for the same price you bought it...

This sale would probably be illegal, but I think the definition of a "straw purchase" is when a person with the legal right to purchase a firearm does so for the purpose of providing that firearm to a person who does not have the legal right to purchase a firearm.

 

If the first buyer buys a rifle legally, and then resells it to a second person who could have legally purchased the rifle in the first place (because they have matching, FID, DL, etc), then it's not a straw purchase.

 

Watch out. The ability of the buyer to purchase a firearm does not make the straw purchase. Intent makes the straw purchase.

 

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

15. straw PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee.

 

In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser

to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these

circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee

+1 Malsua, thanks. So it is a no-go.

Watch out. The ability of the buyer to purchase a firearm does not make the straw purchase. Intent makes the straw purchase.

 

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

Good link, thanks.

Malsua... great post, but I have some questions: Are all the gun raffles held at benefit dinners and gun competitions illegal? Or is a blind eye just turned when it comes to those specific instances (outside of NJ that is)? And is this actual law, or is the ATF just making policy and interpreting a law (like the NJSP and AG do all too often)? Im not questioning what is written in black and white and not attacking you... just posing some questions for the board.

 

To answer the original intent of the post, yeah it would be illegal. It may not fall under a straw purchase but it would definately fall under illegal arms dealing. I would equate it to buying an AR lower and building it for personal use... or buying an AR lower, building it, and reselling it. One is a hobby, one is illegal manufacture of firearms.

Malsua... great post, but I have some questions: Are all the gun raffles held at benefit dinners and gun competitions illegal? Or is a blind eye just turned when it comes to those specific instances (outside of NJ that is)? And is this actual law, or is the ATF just making policy and interpreting a law (like the NJSP and AG do all too often)? Im not questioning what is written in black and white and not attacking you... just posing some questions for the board.

 

To answer the original intent of the post, yeah it would be illegal. It may not fall under a straw purchase but it would definately fall under illegal arms dealing. I would equate it to buying an AR lower and building it for personal use... or buying an AR lower, building it, and reselling it. One is a hobby, one is illegal manufacture of firearms.

 

raffles and benefits are not straw purchases, no intenet to sell to someone..unless the raffle was fixed then other laws would also be broken..

Malsua... great post, but I have some questions: Are all the gun raffles held at benefit dinners and gun competitions illegal? Or is a blind eye just turned when it comes to those specific instances (outside of NJ that is)? And is this actual law, or is the ATF just making policy and interpreting a law (like the NJSP and AG do all too often)? Im not questioning what is written in black and white and not attacking you... just posing some questions for the board.

 

 

I can answer the first part, well sorta. When I lived in Ohio, I won a shotgun. I still have it by the way. When the time came to take possession of it, I filled out a form at the dealer. The funny part was, the dealer was my Step father who entered me in the raffle for the shotgun...that he as a dealer had bought and held until the winner was picked. This was in uhm...1992 I believe. Before any NICS or brady stuff.

 

Also, you are allowed to purchase a firearm as a gift. That's not a straw purchase.

 

Also from the document linked above:

Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person

making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances.

 

furthermore, they cover this topic.

 

P60) An organization without a firearms license wishes to acquire a firearm from a licensee for the purpose of raffling the firearm at an event. How does the licensee comply with the Brady law? The licensee must comply with the Brady law by conducting a NICS check on the transferee. If the licensee wishes to transfer the firearm to

the organization, a representative of the organization must complete a Form 4473 and a NICS check must be conducted on that representative prior to the transfer of the firearm. Alternatively, if the licensee transfers the firearm directly to the winner of the raffle, the winner must complete a Form 4473 and a NICS check must be conducted on the raffle winner prior to the transfer. Please note, if the organization’s practice of raffling firearms rises to the level of being engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, the organization must get its own Federal firearms license (and the examples below would not apply).

 

Example 1: A licensee transfers a firearm to the organization sponsoring the raffle. The licensee must comply with the Brady Law by requiring a representative of the organization to complete the Form 4473 and undergo a NICS check. As indicated in the instructions on the Form 4473, when the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, association, or other organization, an officer or other representative authorized to act on behalf of the organization must complete the form with his or her personal information

and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating that the firearm is being acquired for the use of the organization and the name and address of the organization. Once the firearm had been transferred to the organization, the organization can subsequently transfer the firearm to the raffle winner without a Form 4473 being completed or a NICS check being conducted. This is because the organization is not an FFL. However, the organization cannot transfer the firearm to a person who is not a resident of the State where the raffle occurs and cannot knowingly transfer the firearm to a prohibited person.

 

Example 2: The licensee or his or her representative brings a firearm to the raffle so that the firearm can be displayed. After the raffle, the 196 firearm is returned to the licensee’s premises. The licensee must complete a Form 4473 for the transaction and must comply with the Brady Law prior to transferring the firearm to the winner of the raffle. If the firearm is a handgun, the winner of the raffle must be a resident of the State where the transfer takes place, or the firearm must be transferred through another FFL in the winner’s State of residence. If the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, the FFL can lawfully transfer the firearm to the winner of the raffle as long as the transaction is over-thecounter and complies with the laws applicable at the place of sale and the State where the transferee resides.

 

Example 3: If the raffle meets the definition of an “event” at which the licensee is allowed to conduct business pursuant to 27 CFR 478.100, the licensee may attend the event and transfer the firearm at the event to the winner of the raffle. As in Example 2, the FFL must complete a Form 4473 and comply with the Brady law and the interstate controls in transferring the firearm. Please note, procedures used in Examples 2 and 3 ensure that the winner is not a prohibited person and that there is a record of the final recipient of the firearm in the raffle. [18 U.S.C. 922(t) and 922(a)(1)(A)]

raffles and benefits are not straw purchases, no intenet to sell to someone..unless the raffle was fixed then other laws would also be broken..

The law does read "purchaser" but you know as well as I do, the gun grabbers would (and in NJ they do) make the arguement that the transfer is illegal because it was intended for a third party.

Another great post Malsua... thanks for the info and clearing it up. Most of the raffles Ive seen in NJ do not have the proper license (I suspect) and thats probably why the NJSP have been cracking down in recent years.

There is still a very fine line. It seems it is all about intent. If you purchased a lower, built it up for yourself, and used it for a few months; then you decided to sell it... That would be legal as the intent was not to build it to sell it to someone else. You just happened to decide to sell it b/c you needed the money or whatnot.

 

If someone approached you and asked you to purchase the lower and build the rifle for them, then sell it to them at a later date... that intent would constitute a straw purchase and be illegal.

 

This is how I interpret the law here.

There is still a very fine line. It seems it is all about intent. If you purchased a lower, built it up for yourself, and used it for a few months; then you decided to sell it... That would be legal as the intent was not to build it to sell it to someone else. You just happened to decide to sell it b/c you needed the money or whatnot.

 

If someone approached you and asked you to purchase the lower and build the rifle for them, then sell it to them at a later date... that intent would constitute a straw purchase and be illegal.

 

This is how I interpret the law here.

 

I agree. The law seems to focus on the fact that the paperwork actually matches to the person who took possession and the intent is for it to remain with that person unless someone changes their mind. It goes back to intent.

Couldn't you just say, if you ever had to justify it, that you bought 5 rifles because you just wanted to buy 5 rifles...then figured out that for X reason you didn't want them anymore and sold them off?

 

That sounds legitimate..

Couldn't you just say, if you ever had to justify it, that you bought 5 rifles because you just wanted to buy 5 rifles...then figured out that for X reason you didn't want them anymore and sold them off?

 

That sounds legitimate..

 

"I bought these five rifles because I wanted to expand my collection. The car's brakes stopped working the next day and I need the money to get them fixed so I had to sell them".

 

Totally legal. Be assured that if you buy a whole lot of guns immediately turn around to sell them and the ATF gets wind of it, you'd better have a pretty good reason why you're selling them so soon after purchase.

 

It goes to intent. If you buy and sell many guns, you've become an unlicensed dealer which could be worse than a straw purchaser. An unlicensed guy that has a booth at a flea market and sells guns is probably going to get pinched for that unless he can prove that he's not churning guns and is selling his own collection.

Intent is a gray area and can be proven either way... it depends how effective the legal team is I suppose. Below is a link to an article about an FBI agent found guilty of weapons charges... and his intent was to collect and when he got tired of a gun, he resold them. Im not sure if anyone has seen this or not, but you may want to take a look. The facts of the case were kind of shady but this basically applies to a collector buying and reselling firearms.

 

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/jury-finds-fbi-s-shipley-guilty-on-gun-charges

http://www.examiner....-on-gun-charges

 

One of those guns came through me.

I think this would constitute illegal arms dealing more than a straw purchase. You can't just buy and sell 5 rifles without an FFL.

 

+1. You seriously risk running afoul of the ATF while not having an FFL.

Intent is very difficult to prove when it rests solely in the mind of the person. Fortunately we do not have "thought police".

 

On PURELY principle, if someone were to buy X rifles with the intent to do a group buy and sell off the remaining rifles, that would be illegal, since you are lying on the form that you are the actual owner/purchaser. Again, this is in principle.

 

In practice, unless that person advertised his intent, there is no way to prove it. I buy multiple guns all the time (or used to before one gun a month). Who is to say that if I legally bought a bunch of guns and exercised my rights as a dissatisfied consumer to sell my property in a lawful manner, is somehow illegal?

 

So there are two answers, in theory yes it is illegal. In practice, likely not. This is not advice however to go ahead and do it. I am not a lawyer so this is just my observation. Buying multiple firearms and selling off the ones you don't like or are willing to part with for extra cash is not against the law.

 

Isn't it funny, there are less than a handful of places in NJ where you can actually try out a gun before buying it, yet if we are not happy we have to be careful how many guns we can sell before the state calls us straw purchasers. God I hate this place.

I think if there is no profit, no harm no foul. You arent a dealer then. If you are both legal to buy, it isnt straw either.

I think if there is no profit, no harm no foul. You arent a dealer then. If you are both legal to buy, it isnt straw either.

 

Profit has no bearing on dealing. If you are buying and selling guns that are not for your own use, you are a dealer.

 

Re-read my posts up thread. Both being legal to buy has no bearing on whether it's a straw purchase.