With all that is taking place in the world, the current mess that is the USA, and for the real tinfoil hat enthusiast, TEOTWAWKI on May 12, 2011, I am getting more and more shall we call it agitated. I find that insprirational qoutes from smarter people then I help me cope.

 

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." Patrick Henry

 

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." Noah Webster

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." Patrick Henry

 

Said Mr. Henry the anti-federalist! A man able to console the middling and the poor with words, turning their ire towards the tyrannical rule of kings and queens whilst his fellow gentry engineered a nation meant to run on the backs of said middling and poor.

You kidding right.. You are going to fault a philosphy of freedom born on man's god given ability to rise above their station? Our nation is engineered to be succesful only by the hard labor of the less fortunate? That's what you learned in civic class? Where the f did you go to school, Moscow Middle followed by Lenin High?

 

Thanks for the pick me up this thread was posted to achieve.

You kidding right.. You are going to fault a philosphy of freedom born on man's god given ability to rise above their station? Our nation is engineered to be succesful only by the hard labor of the less fortunate? That's what you learned in civic class? Where the f did you go to school, Moscow Middle followed by Lenin High?

 

Thanks for the pick me up this thread was posted to achieve.

 

No I just find his quote funny since he was against the constitution and then became a federalist when it served his interest. If I remember my history correctly this was when he feared the ruling elite may face over throw and a strong central gov't would help thwart such attempts. A strong Fed is what we have now and I read many complaints about it on this board and others. That the gov't has the people by the balls when it should be the other way around. I agree with your sentiments regarding the current state of this country but it is this way for a reason (many reasons). Patrick Henry and his compatriots weren't these noble figures looking to free the rank and file from the unjust tax of a tyranny. That was the spin they used to enlist the common man in the fight against England. They were looking to free themselves of the tyranny of England so they could rule as they saw fit.

 

BTW, let's stay on the high road, above leveling the well worn "communist" accusation. Communism/socialism has nothing to do with it. If you read a real history book [not a 5th grade history book filled with fairy tales like the heroism of Columbus] it is plainly obvious what our founding fathers were doing. As for communism...when women were fighting for equal rights and suffrage they were often accused of being socialist/communists. Others warned via pamphlet, paper, and novel not to fall into the communist trap, etc. Looking back that seems silly doesn't it? Just because someone sees a different (and widely accepted) view of history doesn't make them a communist.

and for the real tinfoil hat enthusiast, TEOTWAWKI on May 12, 2011,

When was this bumped up a year?!?!?! Last time I checked my magic 8 ball it said 2012!!

Ok... I lift the accusation of your possesion of a little red book when you clear me of the 5th grade history knowledge. I admit to 7th grade at best.

 

I realize 100% that no man is totally altruistic... maybe the Dalai Lama, but his handlers aren't. The founding fathers were as a group far from perfect, and yes there is elitism in their works. But I need to argue as it sounds your concept of America is that we were founded as a new fiefdom with no intentions of group liberty. So when I think about your comments at first they sounded somewhat Marxist, but now it is ultra-libertarian or anarchist. And if you are questioning the intention of the founders in such a fashion, with a jaded view, you know are walking along the lines of the progressives that wish to rip apart the originalist views. Which is it?

 

So I will go ahead and offer my stance first. I am an originalist, as I personally believe that there was a magical confluence of intelligence, wisdom and determination happening in the colonies in the mide to late 1700s. These men knew what they were doing, had a great idea and made it work. John Adams himself decried himself a man of the people, yet was fond of only certain people. Human nature?

Ha...I actually fat fingered the day... May 21, 2011 is Judgement Day!!

 

There is a church here in Philly that has a big billboard on the Schuykill Exp that is counting down the days to May 21, 2011 as judgement day. Their motto is "Come in and get right with God before." So all the folks here in the FEMA office are using that day as our current tinfoil hat reference.

Ok... I lift the accusation of your possesion of a little red book when you clear me of the 5th grade history knowledge. I admit to 7th grade at best.

 

I realize 100% that no man is totally altruistic... maybe the Dalai Lama, but his handlers aren't. The founding fathers were as a group far from perfect, and yes there is elitism in their works. But I need to argue as it sounds your concept of America is that we were founded as a new fiefdom with no intentions of group liberty. So when I think about your comments at first they sounded somewhat Marxist, but now it is ultra-libertarian or anarchist. And if you are questioning the intention of the founders in such a fashion, with a jaded view, you know are walking along the lines of the progressives that wish to rip apart the originalist views. Which is it?

 

So I will go ahead and offer my stance first. I am an originalist, as I personally believe that there was a magical confluence of intelligence, wisdom and determination happening in the colonies in the mide to late 1700s. These men knew what they were doing, had a great idea and made it work. John Adams himself decried himself a man of the people, yet was fond of only certain people. Human nature?

 

First let me start by stating that I wasn't trying to say that I thought your history knowledge was at a 5th grade level. I was trying to make the point that the typical history book, at least when I was in school, left out a good portion of the story. Yes, I learned Lincoln freed the slaves but I didn't learn his original intent was to make sure the South did not have an economic advantage over the North, the advantage of cheap labor. Nope, I learned it was because he was a good guy who didn't think black people belonged in chains. To this day, I rarely hear the former mentioned when his name comes up in regards to slavery.

 

I do believe it was a fiefdom of sorts. As an originalist I'm guessing your interpretation of the constitution is that should protect the individual. In those times the only individuals that were protected were land owners, i.e. the elite. I'm middle class, I make a good living but most likely I'm a renter back in those days. The majority of settled lands, millions and millions of acres, were owned by the Washingtons, Jacksons, even Mr. Henry i.e. the elite. There were many farmers who rented lands and many more indentured servants and slaves. The elite would make themselves more wealthy by using the gov't to push Native Americans further and further West and then using treaties like the "Jackson Purchase" to appropriate the land. The land would end up in private hands (of the elite) and then be leased to tenant farmers and the like. They paid rent and couldn't vote. The elite used the gov't to further their capitalistic endeavors.

 

My basic premise is many of us hold the founding fathers in high esteem yet we abhor current day politicians who act in a manner similar to the way our founding fathers behaved. Those of us on the more conservative side tend to go ballistic when we learn of the elite using the gov't to further their needs. Especially when such actions come at the expense of the citizens and tax payers! Regardless of whether we can stop it, we don't like it.

 

I agree, they did know what they were doing. More so than we give them credit for, they created, "we the people" and they did it knowingly and for good reason! The shaping of the nation through physical, legal, and psychological means really was a work of art.

 

As far as my position; I will tell you that I don't believe in taxation without representation. I don't know about you but lately I don't feel like I'm being represented. I believe that the common man in 1700-1800s felt the same way. I believe the constitution is more important today then it was when it was created, specifically because it actually protects *every* individual. Of course, many interpretations of late have worked to undo some of those protections. I believe the more government, the worse off we are.

 

I just want to raise one more point that I've thought about while reading on colonial history. When the colonies were in the very early days of being settled and slaves were starting to be imported racism was non-existent in the lower classes, the middle class was practically non-existant, and there was relative peace with many Native American tribes. It was common place for slaves and white servants to interact and socialize, even romantically. Given those facts [and others so plenty I couldn't type them all here] my question is, what changed? Where did the middle class come from and why? How did racism develop and why? Why did the common man (white) turn on the Native American?

Very interesting points that I agree with for the most part [or mostly all].

 

I do think its naive to consider our founding fathers to be some heroes high up on a pedestal that are free of any type of sin (whether inflicted upon others, or taken from the flesh of others).

I think what does make our founding fathers a "cut above the rest" was their ability to birth a nation that had virtually no real "past" (considering the Natives were driven off or killed, and have not really been acknowledged ever as they are still considered second or third rate citizens in their own lands). Most other nations were born of a past (even if not acknowledged at first), most of Europe with their monarchies, East Asia with their dynasties, etc. So, the fact that a group of people were able to come together and, for the most part, draw up a definitive document that protected the individual with really no "past" to base their new direction upon is quite remarkable and unique.

 

Btw, I'm going to move this to Bucket 3 as the premise and direction taken is not really appropriate for the 'General Firearms' subforum.

 

ETA:

I had typed a response out to the latter part of your post, regarding the questions of colonialism, though I opted to not include it as it turned into a wall of text [spam]

I want to say be careful because you might be opening pandora's box; and yet I like the way you think/convey what you're trying to say in relations to the OP. I think it is paramount to understand what it is that we base our values and morals upon, or what value do they really have?

The roots of racism and middle class go far into history, and are obviously still debated to this day (or at least the former). I do think that in the early/mid-20th century is when we saw a real mating of the two that still reverberate to this day (think eugenics, and its overlapping effect from the 20-50's, and today still).

As for how the Natives were pushed out with no regard, I think its still amazing that Thanksgiving is still celebrated with such vigor all things considered , but I'll leave it at that.

Hey, we are Americans. We have an extraordinary ability to forget our sins, gloss over our miss-deeds, cleanse our souls of sin and trumpet our successes.

 

Do I think the middle class today is equal to the middle class of colonial times, no. Do I think we are feeling issue of faulty representation currently, YES. Because we keep having libtards elected at the local level, now being run by an ego maniac.

 

IMHO, racism is totally off track here, but I look to the influx of immigrants and black flight from the south, in the early to mid 1800s. These folks were fighting for the same resources, lack of communication, language difficulties, religous issues, crowding etc etc.