Is enforcing the collection of defaulted student loans worth the time of a SWAT team?

 

Was the threat to society from the deadbeat wife so great that immediate forced entry was necessary?

 

Are we on are way to having debtor's prisons again?

 

http://www.news10.net/news/article/141072/2/Dept-of-Education-breaks-down-Stockton-mans-door

 

...The U.S. Department of Education issued the search and called in the S.W.A.T for his wife's defaulted student loans.

 

"They busted down my door for this," Wright said. "It wasn't even me."

 

According to the Department of Education's Office of the Inspector General, the case can't be discussed publicly until it is closed, but a spokesperson did confirm that the department did issue the search warrant at Wright's home.

 

The Office of the Inspector General has a law enforcement branch of federal agents that carry out search warrants and investigations. ...

 

Listen to the end of the video - If Mr. Wright was never held against his will, then why was he handcuffed and put in a patrol car for 6 hours? He really could have just asked to go at any time?

Is enforcing the collection of defaulted student loans worth the time of a SWAT team?

 

Was the threat to society from the deadbeat wife so great that immediate forced entry was necessary?

 

Are we on are way to having debtor's prisons again?

 

http://www.news10.net/news/article/141072/2/Dept-of-Education-breaks-down-Stockton-mans-door

 

 

 

Listen to the end of the video - If Mr. Wright was never held against his will, then why was he handcuffed and put in a patrol car for 6 hours? He really could have just asked to go at any time?

 

Holy crap... that is just totally f*cked up!

This is a direct result of Clinton's "100,000 new cops"

 

It turned into a Pork Barrel full of Jack boots, AR-15s, Balaclavas and portable command centers.

He really could have just asked to go at any time?

 

never know till you ask.. but if I were ever arrested or put into custody.. about the only thing I would ask is why I am being detained.. and more importantly as to if I am free to go..

It makes perfect sense. If you don't pay your student loan, you're sort of a terrorist.

Dude I'm all for this! That mo'fo is stealing my tax money. Hell. I think if you default on any loan this sh*t should go down. More of this action and we'd be a world full of better credit scores. Yeah man...yeah.

 

Wait. Student loans come from taxes right? Ef it. Do it regardless!

just read someplace that the u.s. dept. of educ. has just purchased a quantity of firearms for the enforcement division -

I was about to be all over this with a generic anti-government rant, until I read the new story.

http://www.news10.net/news/article/141108/2/Questions-surround-feds-raid-of-Stockton-home

(The original link was removed)

 

"A U.S. government official confirmed for News10 Wednesday morning federal agents with the Office of the Inspector General (OIG), not local S.W.A.T., served the search warrant. The official would not say specifically why the raid took place. He did say the search was not related to student loans in default.

 

He went on to say OIG is a semi-independent branch of the U.S. Department of Education that executes warrants for criminal offenses such as student aid fraud and embezzlement of federal aid."

 

Sounds like News 10 got it wrong - this should be fun to watch...

Yep, there's some more details emerging, and it's looking like, *SHOCK*, the news station did some initial shoddy reporting that warrant was due to student loan default.

 

Putting my outrage at the forced entry on hold until it's clear what the warrant was actually for.

Dude I'm all for this! That mo'fo is stealing my tax money. Hell. I think if you default on any loan this sh*t should go down. More of this action and we'd be a world full of better credit scores. Yeah man...yeah.

 

Wait. Student loans come from taxes right? Ef it. Do it regardless!

 

Maybe now we can make default on loans a capital crime!!! That would be great, start killing all the deadbeats to clense our society of those horrible, undesirables.

 

Society could really benefit from such ideals.

news video clip.

 

http://www.news10.net/video/default.aspx?bctid=983606109001&odyssey=mod|tvideo|article

you have no idea how many people take students loans and never go to school. They enroll in classes and then drop out with 100% refund by the 2nd week. I'm actually all for this on some level, not for kicking in peoples doors and executing search warrants, but keeping on track with people taking loans and either not using the money for school or not paying it back. Other then then people do see student loans as free money and have been trying to get the government to bail them out.

never know till you ask...

 

Really, so the handcuffs on him were just a ruse to keep him around and all he had to do was speak up and he was free to go?

 

Question for the LEO's - can you cuff someone without them being under arrest?

Question for the LEO's - can you cuff someone without them being under arrest?

 

Yes and I'm not a LEO. You can detain someone up to (I believe) 24 hours without charging them with a crime. A LEO can cuff someone "for safety" reasons as I recall.

Yes and I'm not a LEO. You can detain someone up to (I believe) 24 hours without charging them with a crime. A LEO can cuff someone "for safety" reasons as I recall.

 

So detainment does not equal arrest?

So detainment does not equal arrest?

 

No it doesn't..there is Investigative Detention..plus many times,if a Search Warrant is being served and there are multiple people present, they ALL get cuffed until it's sorted out Who is who.. Same with Hostage situations..the Hostages get corralled and restrained..just to make CERTAIN there isnt a bad guy mixed in. One of the Iran Embassy guys tried getting out in the confusion after the SAS raid that way. he put on a Waiter's jacket and tried to mingle..till the actual Vics outed him. IIRC he was about the only survivor, because the nes cameras were on him as he wa sbeing dragged back into the Embassy.

Ok cool, learned something new.

 

Let's try this question another way - is it an accepted practice to keep cuffs on someone who would otherwise be "free to go" if they just asked?

I say that guy needs to find a good lawyer. There is no good reason why he was detained. If it took 6 hours to figure out he wasnt his wife there is something very very wrong. If that ever happened to me and my kids where traumatized like that there would be hell to pay for sure.

Ken

There is some distinction we may need to point out, here.

 

First, the words arrest, detain, hold etc. They are all synonyms for a "seizure" of the person (from our lovely US Const. 4A). So, while the police may be able to 'cuff you without saying the words "you're under arrest," they are still seizing you under the 4A if "a reasonable person would believe that they are not free to go."

 

Therefore, if the seizing/'cuffing/arresting/holding/detaining, whatever, isn't permissible under the 4A, then the detainee's Constitutional rights have been violated and all the consequences that come from that may flow (a Section 1983 Lawsuit against the PD, suppression of ill-gotten evidence etc.).

 

 

As KPD said:

 

Execution of a search warrant with multiple people in the location is a situation where all occupants of the location may be "seized" for the officers' safety, to avoid destruction of evidence and to ensure they get the right person (if it's an arrest warrant).

 

Handcuffing someone for their own safety (to prevent them from harming themselves or others) may actually fall under the "community caretaking" job of the police (as opposed to the "law enforcement" job of the police), and may be appropriate, even if no crime is suspected.

 

All-in-all, my vote is that the man in cuffs in the back of the squad car was more than likely "seized," because a reasonable person would not think "hey, all I need to do is tell them I want to go, and they'll let me walk free." Now, was the seizure permitted under the 4A? I don't want to try to pick it apart without more details.

Maybe now we can make default on loans a capital crime!!! That would be great, start killing all the deadbeats to clense our society of those horrible, undesirables.

 

Society could really benefit from such ideals.

Yeah, man, you dig. Now you're getting it. Who else can we kill off?

Really, so the handcuffs on him were just a ruse to keep him around and all he had to do was speak up and he was free to go?

 

Question for the LEO's - can you cuff someone without them being under arrest?

 

 

 

as others have pointed out.. yes.. you can be detained.. and if you do not protest.. you are freely staying there.. as I have stated a million times before.. I am not LEO or a lawyer.. so my opinion is worthless.. but I have always been under the impression that the first thing you should do (in a situation where you are being detained without an obvious reason) is to ask to leave..

 

"am I being held or am I free to go"

 

that simple question transforms the situation from you willfully being there under your own power.. into the police actively detaining you.. which in turn starts the clock..

 

I personally think it would be of additional benefit to understand why you are being detained as well (if not glaringly obvious)..

as others have pointed out.. yes.. you can be detained.. and if you do not protest.. you are freely staying there.. as I have stated a million times before.. I am not LEO or a lawyer.. so my opinion is worthless.. but I have always been under the impression that the first thing you should do (in a situation where you are being detained without an obvious reason) is to ask to leave..

 

"am I being held or am I free to go"

 

that simple question transforms the situation from you willfully being there under your own power.. into the police actively detaining you.. which in turn starts the clock..

 

I personally think it would be of additional benefit to understand why you are being detained as well (if not glaringly obvious)..

 

That's not the standard at all. Asking the question might clarify what is going on, but it might not even be admissible in court at a trial (it's possibly hearsay if offered to establish that you were not free to go, but may be admtted as non-hearsay for "its effect on the listener.")

 

Either way, under current US Supreme Court precedent, you are considered "detained/seized" for US Constitutional Fourth Amendment purposes if a reasonable person, under the same circumstances, would not feel that they are free to leave.

 

You don't have to ask any questions in order to change the game or shift it from voluntary to involuntary.

 

For Example: If you were cuffed and then stuffed in the back of a squad car and left there alone for 3 days and there is nobody to ask "hey, buddy, can I go, now?", are you still sitting there voluntarily? No, and a reasonable person would not think that they were free to go, either. And that is the standard for determining if you are being detained/arrested/seized.

That's not the standard at all. Asking the question might clarify what is going on, but it might not even be admissible in court at a trial (it's possibly hearsay if offered to establish that you were not free to go, but may be admtted as non-hearsay for "its effect on the listener.")

 

Either way, under current US Supreme Court precedent, you are considered "detained/seized" for US Constitutional Fourth Amendment purposes if a reasonable person, under the same circumstances, would not feel that they are free to leave.

 

You don't have to ask any questions in order to change the game or shift it from voluntary to involuntary.

 

For Example: If you were cuffed and then stuffed in the back of a squad car and left there alone for 3 days and there is nobody to ask "hey, buddy, can I go, now?", are you still sitting there voluntarily? No, and a reasonable person would not think that they were free to go, either. And that is the standard for determining if you are being detained/arrested/seized.

 

like I said.. "I am not LEO or a lawyer.. so my opinion is worthless.." but it is just that.. my opinion..

 

my point was more so some people talk to police or remain in the presence of a situation for longer than they need to simply because they have not established that they are free to go.. a lot of times people assume that no matter what a cop is talking to them and they have to stop and interact.. simply asking if you are free to go.. you are establishing as to if this a conversation you even need to have...

 

the police can not hold you indefinitely.. but the first step in leaving should simply be asking to do so..