Wow! Turn it over to the FBI instead of leaving with this bunch of ATF jackasses. It's funny but the ATF seems to step on the presidents dick during democrat administrations. I guess they really want to squish the investigation into fast and furious.

 

Good riddence! At least the FBI isn't so heavily agenda driven.

 

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http://townhall.com/columnists/katiepavlich/2011/09/30/bombshell_doj_considering_elimination_of_atf

Sep 30, 2011

 

 

Multiple sources, including sources from ATF, DOJ and Congressional offices have said there is a white paper circulating within the Department of Justice, outlining the essential elimination of ATF. According to sources, the paper outlines the firing of at least 450 ATF agents in an effort to conduct damage control as Operation Fast and Furious gets uglier and as election day 2012 gets closer. ATF agents wouldn’t be reassigned to other positions, just simply let go. Current duties of ATF, including the enforcement of explosives and gun laws, would be transferred to other agencies, possibly the FBI and the DEA. According to a congressional source, there have been rumblings about the elimination of ATF for quite sometime, but the move would require major political capital to actually happen.

 

“It’s a serious white paper being circulated, how far they’d get with it I don’t know,” a confidential source said.

 

After a town hall meeting about Operation Fast and Furious in Tucson, Ariz. on Monday, ATF Whistleblower Vince Cefalu, who has been key in exposing details about Operation Fast and Furious, confirmed the elimination of ATF has been circulating as a serious idea for sometime now and that a white paper outlining the plan does exist.

 

Sounds great right? Eliminating ATF? But there is more to this story. Remember, low level ATF field agents, like ATF whistleblower John Dodson, were uncomfortable conducting Operation Fast and Furious from the beginning, but were told by high level officials within ATF that if they had a problem with the operation, they could find a job elsewhere.

 

“Allowing loads of weapons that we knew to be destined for criminals, this was the plan. It was so mandated,” ATF Whistleblower John Dodson said in testimony on Capitol Hill on June 15, 2011.

 

In fact, not only were the ATF agents forced to carry out the operation, they were told to go against what they had been taught in training.

 

“This operation, which in my opinion endangered the American public, was orchestrated in conjunction with Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley. [Emory Hurley is the same Assistant U.S. Attorney who previously prevented agents from using some of the common and accepted law enforcement techniques that are employed elsewhere in the United States to investigate and prosecute gun crimes.] I have read documents that indicate that his boss, U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, also agreed with the direction of the case,” Special Agent Peter Forcelli said in testimony on Capitol hill on June 15, 2011.

 

“I recall my first days at the ATF academy, where it was drilled into us as new agents that under no circumstances would any firearms, in any investigation, leave the control of ATF. Instructors stressed that even if a weapon was lost “by accident,” the agent was still subject to termination,” former ATF Attaché to Mexico Darren D. Gil said in testimony on June 15, 2011.

 

ATF field agents weren’t the problem with Operation Fast and Furious, high ranking officials within ATF and the Department of Justice were and still are. DOJ would eliminate ATF only to take the heat off of the Obama Administration. By eliminating the bureau, it makes it seem like DOJ is taking Operation Fast and Furious so seriously, they decided to “clear out the corruption, clean house,” however, it would only be a distraction away from the people at the top of the investigation. In fact, evidence shows the DOJ has been stonewalling the Oversight Committee investigation into the operation to protect Obama political appointees.

 

“It was very frustrating to all of us, and it appears thoroughly to us that the Department is really trying to figure out a way to push the information away from their political appointees at the Department,” former ATF Acting Director Kenneth Melson, who has since been moved to a position within DOJ, said of his frustration with the Justice Department’s response to the investigation in transcribed closed door testimony with the Oversight Committee in July 2011.

 

When I called the Department of Justice last week (five times) to request the white paper and receive a comment surrounding the idea of eliminating ATF, I received the following response: “Everyone is away from their desk right now.”

 

 

Up to this point, the Department of Justice has denied all allegations or involvement in Operation Fast and Furious, yet journalists and the House Oversight Committee have proved allegation after allegation to be true. For example, during a Congressional hearing in July, former ATF Special Agent in Charge William Newell, who has since been promoted to a position within the Justice Department, denied that his agency was trafficking guns to Mexico, despite overwhelming evidence and testimony from other ATF agents proving otherwise.

 

“At no time in our strategy was it to allow guns to be taken to Mexico,” Newell said on July 26, 2011, adding that at no time did his agency allow guns to walk.

 

We’ve heard this was a low level, “rogue” operation, turns out high level officials in the Justice Department, DEA, FBI, DHS, and even members of the White House national security team knew about Operation Fast and Furious.

 

Last week, ATF offered 400 agents buy outs to avoid budget cuts and is expecting 250-275 agents to take the offer through Voluntary Early Retirement. These buyouts come at a convenient time for the Justice Department, which can eliminate ATF, then say it’s because of budget cuts, when really, it’s to cover their tracks.

Means nothing, FBI is the ATF is the CIA is the government.

Interesting. I wonder what that would mean for us gun owners if the ATF did get shut down.

Means nothing, FBI is the ATF is the CIA is the government.

 

Yep. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Yea, nothing is going to change if ATF is liquidated. If anything, it will mean new policies on top of old ones, with everything being delayed until everything is reviewed.

 

What I find more disturbing is that the Federal government is willing to openly sweep the whole fiasco, including possible criminal action, under the rug for the sake of an election

 

In fact, this consolidation is very worrisome because it is contradictory to how the agencies work. There is a reason for the compartmentalization of tasks handed out, FBI dealing with a certain subset, with CIA others, NSA, etc. Even the concept of DHS and DNI are mind boggling when you have knowledge of the inner workings. Unfortunately, we, as a nation, crossed that line a couple years back-- oh well.

An early Christmas present. Good riddance!

IMO it's just a calculated move to misdirect attention from the focus of their current and previous ill conceived ideas.

Wont affect us here in NJ at all.. guys in FREE states are going to be screwed though.... Wait till you see how long it takes for a form-4 to be processed once they disband ATF.

Sep 30, 2011...

 

No attribution! Where did this thing come from?

Wont affect us here in NJ at all.. guys in FREE states are going to be screwed though.... Wait till you see how long it takes for a form-4 to be processed once they disband ATF.

 

"FREE states" having been doing away with Form 4s, and it happens to be on the menu in PA as well.

No attribution! Where did this thing come from?

 

sorry, forgot to post it in the original article.

http://townhall.com/columnists/katiepavlich/2011/09/30/bombshell_doj_considering_elimination_of_atf

what are "form 4"'s?

what are "form 4"'s?

 

Nothing to worry about. You got plenty of forms to keep straight, and this aint one of them.

Nothing to worry about. You got plenty of forms to keep straight, and this aint one of them.

 

Way to bring ARFCOM GD attitude to NJGF.

 

form 4 is transfer paperwork for NFA items. SBR/CANS/Full Auto

 

Form 1 is another NFA form.

"FREE states" having been doing away with Form 4s, and it happens to be on the menu in PA as well.

Please exlain to me how states are doing away with federal NFA forms?

 

For anyone interested HERE is a form 4.

I agree, in the end if it does happen it probably won't change a thing, even though the ATF really has out lived there reason for being around a long time ago.

 

As they say the ATF should be a local store not a government agency.

 

Harry

I've seen alot of pro-gun facts come out of the FBI through their findings.

 

• Citizens with carry permits are morelaw-abiding than the general public. Only0.01% of nearly 1.2 million permits issued by Florida have been revoked becauseof firearm crimes by permit holders. Similarly low percentages of permits havebeen revoked in Texas, Virginia, and other right-to-carry states that keep suchstatistics. Right-to-carry is widely supported by law enforcement officials andgroups.

 

• States with right-to-carry laws havelower violent crime rates. Onaverage, right-to-carry states have 22 percent lower total violent crime rates,30 percent lower murder rates, 46 percent lower robbery rates, and 12 percentlower aggravated assault rates, compared to the rest of the country. The sevenstates with the lowest violent crime rates are right-to-carry states. (Data:FBI.)

 

 

• Crime declines in states withright-to-carry laws. Sinceadopting right-to-carry in 1987, Florida`s total violent crime and murder rateshave dropped 32 percent and 58 percent, respectively. Texas` violent crime andmurder rates have dropped 20 percent and 31 percent, respectively, sinceenactment of its 1996 right-to-carry law. (Data: FBI.)

 

 

 

 

You dont think that this would have an impact? They know the deal with law abiding citizens. They are the ones that made these statemets

I've seen alot of pro-gun facts come out of the FBI through their findings.

 

 

 

 

You dont think that this would have an impact? They know the deal with law abiding citizens. They are the ones that made these statemets

It very interesting that your bring that up. The FBI seems to have the most accurate and stand up results when it comes to gun statistics. In essence they are very pro-gun, much more then the ATF, but then again they never really focused on governing that section because the ATF did it. It would be interesting to see the FBI do a 180 when/if they take charge of ATF responsibilities.

Facts don't lie

Facts don't lie

But political appointees in charge of agencies do

Facts don't lie

 

There's lies,

Damned lies,

And statistics.

 

 

Statistics can be warped to promote any agenda you please. All it takes is careful preparatory work to get the "results" you wish for. I trust the rest of the Alphabet Soup agencies as much as the ATF. Not a damn bit!

"FREE states" having been doing away with Form 4s, and it happens to be on the menu in PA as well.

Other than possibly going the Trust or Corp route, I dont understand how

States" are doing away with the ATF form for a Tax Stamp.