Looking to get my first AR. I've been looking around for a good while and pretty much have narrowed it down to two.

 

S&W M&P15 PS or Stag Arms Model 8? Does anyone have or know anyone with experience with these rifles?

 

They're both in the same price point with the exception of the Stag Arms comes with MI folding BUIS where as the M&P does not come with sights at all.

 

I can't tell a difference between the piston systems themselves but it seems Stag Arms' system seems more robust. I'll refer to more experience on that front.

 

Thanks guys

Any reason in particular that you want a Piston Upper?

From what I've read, easier to clean and maintain. As well as a bit more reliable in the long run.

From what I've read, easier to clean and maintain. As well as a bit more reliable in the long run.

 

Personally, seeing as we're not in Iraq/Afghanistan, you could get away with owning a regular AR-15 without much issue. I never clean mine and they tend to work fine using Mil-Surp ammunition. That being said: if I were to go the piston route, I would try to buy a rifle explicitly designed for it like the AKM, ACR, SCAR, XCR, Sig556, ARX-160, etc. It's just an engineering thing for me... The AR-15 platform was designed around a DI design from the get-go to be lightweight and minimize parts... the piston complicates that.

From what I've read, easier to clean and maintain. As well as a bit more reliable in the long run.

 

Easier to clean may be true but know that preventative maintenance and reliability are questionable. The piston kits have been out a relatively short time compared to the DI systems on the AR platform. If anything breaks, finding parts might be a little bit of a problem.

Very true on both points. But from pictures and diagrams these two rifles seemed to be the simplest of the bunch. I was originally looking at PWS's systems. But def I wasn't going to get a DI gun and convert it.

 

I figure with Stag Arms and Smith and Wesson I wouldn't be going wrong if something were to happen to the piston system itself.

In my humble opinion, AR piston uppers are beneficial if you are running a suppressed rifle, or an SBR shorter than 10.5" (or both). Other than that, they offer no real benefit over the original DI design.

If you just want one, sure, go for it! I say the more toys the better!

In all honesty, I doubt you will see any REAL performance gains in a piston rifle over a DI rifle.

 

Cheers, ya'll!

 

Jeff

I figure with Stag Arms and Smith and Wesson I wouldn't be going wrong if something were to happen to the piston system itself.

 

But if a problem arose at the wrong time what good is a warranty if your dead. Stick with the DI system, learn the gun, and run it hard.

I've been shooting AR patterns rifles since I was seventeen, when I joined the Corps. I'm forty-three now. I carried and shot them for fourteen years of military service, including a lovely year long Persian excursion, primarily as a ground pounder in the Corps and Army. Professionally, my department uses Colt Match Target rifles, and I've been a Firearms Instructor on them for the last ten years or so, and employed by them for eighteen. Kept moderately clean, they work well, albeit puking fouling into the action as designed. After a solid range day of several shooters busting caps, carbon is covering the receivers, where it bleeds out between the upper and lower. I also own a Noveske I purchased right here on this site, and it runs just as well, and puking carbon and unburnt powder into it's guts just like Uncles guns I carried for a long time. So, I'm comfortable in saying I have some familiarity with the design...Yes, a DI gun will run and if properly maintained will do so for a good stretch of time.

With that said, there is a lot of disinformation here. The DI system in the AR15 has been around for quite a while now, but the piston system isn't something new. It's been used successfully in several other firearm designs for a long time, too. It really isn't new to the AR rifle either, unless time is being measured in decades...The systems are combat proven, my good friend rocking a 416 in harms way, as we speak. Look at the Corps new rifle for the Automatic Rifleman. Spare parts are commonly available for those that like to have a disaster kit, as well. Both systems work. It's all on what you perceive as your need.

In addition to the Noveske, I have a POF P308 which is a piston AR pattern rifle in .308. It runs cooler and cleaner then then previous AR10s I've owned, and is just as accurate. From a cost perspective, it was in the same range as DI guns of similar quality. It's effective and does what it is designed to do...I wouldn't hesitate to bet my life on the POF, or my SCAR for that matter, which is another piston design...

So about that SCAR of yours, from a knife I presume? lol

 

Or did you make it comliant somehow?

Little drilling and a couple rivets and she's compliant but I've got a few good knife ones too

Biggest pain was having to have the rifle shipped to my FFL here. He pinned the break. Shipped the stock to a friend's place in Pa. Drilled and pinned it there, before bringing it back to Jersey. Gotta love this place. There's at least one other SCAR owned by a board member here.

I would really like to get a 17 just don't want to part with the $ right no, but soon. lol.

Yeah, after rocking the 16 for a bit now, I really want it's big brother, too...Unfortunately I was born good looking instead of rich...then I got old and fat...

I have the SCAR 17, awesome gun! Other on the board have shot it with NO complaints except expensive ammo.

Muzzlebrake & stock are pinned, mags are also modded 15 rds. Paul (PK90) did the conversion.

Well guess I see how the holidays go. If I have some left over cash I think that will be my next purchase.

Now I know who to go to buy it and have fixed.

I was considering a SCAR. But also looking at the PWS systems.

I have the SCAR 17, awesome gun! Other on the board have shot it with NO complaints except expensive ammo.

That gun is a DREAM....

I've been shooting AR patterns rifles since I was seventeen, when I joined the Corps. I'm forty-three now. I carried and shot them for fourteen years of military service, including a lovely year long Persian excursion, primarily as a ground pounder in the Corps and Army. Professionally, my department uses Colt Match Target rifles, and I've been a Firearms Instructor on them for the last ten years or so, and employed by them for eighteen. Kept moderately clean, they work well, albeit puking fouling into the action as designed. After a solid range day of several shooters busting caps, carbon is covering the receivers, where it bleeds out between the upper and lower. I also own a Noveske I purchased right here on this site, and it runs just as well, and puking carbon and unburnt powder into it's guts just like Uncles guns I carried for a long time. So, I'm comfortable in saying I have some familiarity with the design...Yes, a DI gun will run and if properly maintained will do so for a good stretch of time.

With that said, there is a lot of disinformation here. The DI system in the AR15 has been around for quite a while now, but the piston system isn't something new. It's been used successfully in several other firearm designs for a long time, too. It really isn't new to the AR rifle either, unless time is being measured in decades...The systems are combat proven, my good friend rocking a 416 in harms way, as we speak. Look at the Corps new rifle for the Automatic Rifleman. Spare parts are commonly available for those that like to have a disaster kit, as well. Both systems work. It's all on what you perceive as your need.

In addition to the Noveske, I have a POF P308 which is a piston AR pattern rifle in .308. It runs cooler and cleaner then then previous AR10s I've owned, and is just as accurate. From a cost perspective, it was in the same range as DI guns of similar quality. It's effective and does what it is designed to do...I wouldn't hesitate to bet my life on the POF, or my SCAR for that matter, which is another piston design...

 

What are you referring to as 'disinformation'?

I'd like to learn more.

 

 

Thanks!

Jeff

I've been shooting AR patterns rifles since I was seventeen, when I joined the Corps. I'm forty-three now. I carried and shot them for fourteen years of military service, including a lovely year long Persian excursion, primarily as a ground pounder in the Corps and Army. Professionally, my department uses Colt Match Target rifles, and I've been a Firearms Instructor on them for the last ten years or so, and employed by them for eighteen. Kept moderately clean, they work well, albeit puking fouling into the action as designed. After a solid range day of several shooters busting caps, carbon is covering the receivers, where it bleeds out between the upper and lower. I also own a Noveske I purchased right here on this site, and it runs just as well, and puking carbon and unburnt powder into it's guts just like Uncles guns I carried for a long time. So, I'm comfortable in saying I have some familiarity with the design...Yes, a DI gun will run and if properly maintained will do so for a good stretch of time.

 

Agreed, with a little timely elbow grease, the rifle will run fine in most conditions. The only time when it begins to suffer is when exposed to a great deal of dust which does not play well with the clearances on the rifle.

 

With that said, there is a lot of disinformation here. The DI system in the AR15 has been around for quite a while now, but the piston system isn't something new. It's been used successfully in several other firearm designs for a long time, too.

 

Yes, piston guns have been around for a while. The AK is a piston rifle, the AR-18 is a piston rifle, the G-36 is a piston rifle. Heck, in about 3 years, regardless of who wins, the US Army will be using a piston rifle...

 

However, the AR was never designed for a piston... it's purely a DI weapon, and adding a piston to it doesn't really negate some of it's ergonomic disadvantages (why do you need a buffer tube in a piston rifle?), or make use of the piston systems' many advantages (relying on bolt-mass to cycle the rifle and dampen recoil)

 

Piston rifles are generally more compact than your average AR and are less prone to malfunction due to the lack of fouling back into the action.

 

It really isn't new to the AR rifle either, unless time is being measured in decades...The systems are combat proven, my good friend rocking a 416 in harms way, as we speak. Look at the Corps new rifle for the Automatic Rifleman. Spare parts are commonly available for those that like to have a disaster kit, as well. Both systems work. It's all on what you perceive as your need.

In addition to the Noveske, I have a POF P308 which is a piston AR pattern rifle in .308. It runs cooler and cleaner then then previous AR10s I've owned, and is just as accurate. From a cost perspective, it was in the same range as DI guns of similar quality. It's effective and does what it is designed to do...I wouldn't hesitate to bet my life on the POF, or my SCAR for that matter, which is another piston design...

 

True, piston uppers do exist, but there is not standard. That's a major issue with them that most buyers have. Parts from a POF won't fit a Stag, and won't fit anything else.

 

Do they work? Yes. As you mentioned, the HK416 works very well, as do the POFs. What works better? A rifle built from the ground up to use a piston.

What are you referring to as 'disinformation'?

I'd like to learn more.

 

 

Thanks!

Jeff

 

If you want to learn more about piston rifles... read up on the AR-18 which was designed by Eugene Stoner (technically he made the AR-16 (.308) and after he left ArmaLite they made the (5.56mm) AR-18 by scaling down the design)

 

The AR-18 is pretty much the inspiration of most front line piston rifles... the SAR80, G36, XM8, ACR... elements of its design made their way into the IMI Tavor and the SCAR as well.

If you want to learn more about piston rifles... read up on the AR-18 which was designed by Eugene Stoner (technically he made the AR-16 (.308) and after he left ArmaLite they made the (5.56mm) AR-18 by scaling down the design)

 

The AR-18 is pretty much the inspiration of most front line piston rifles... the SAR80, G36, XM8, ACR... elements of its design made their way into the IMI Tavor and the SCAR as well.

 

Thanks. Good information.

I was actually asking what specopscout was refering to as 'disinformation' about piston guns, but I guess I didn't phrase my question very well.

I agree with your position on piston rifles as stated above.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

Little drilling and a couple rivets and she's compliant but I've got a few good knife ones too

Biggest pain was having to have the rifle shipped to my FFL here. He pinned the break. Shipped the stock to a friend's place in Pa. Drilled and pinned it there, before bringing it back to Jersey. Gotta love this place. There's at least one other SCAR owned by a board member here.

I wonder,how much all this cost???????????????

Do they work? Yes. As you mentioned, the HK416 works very well, as do the POFs. What works better? A rifle built from the ground up to use a piston.

 

I'd like to point out that not everyone is happy with the HK416. Here's an interesting post from m4c: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92876&page=2

 

It's all mostly anecdotal, but nonetheless valuable and notable.