Looking to put together a lighter run & gun type AR, however I am not trying for the lightest gun in all creation as I am no weakling and will drag around whatever I end up with.

 

Appreciate any comments or tips

 

 

First the Lower :

 

Roggio arsenal.-Stripped Lower-Receiver (though if I find something reasonable local I will just grab it)

 

SOCOM M4 stock

 

Timney : AR-15 DROP-IN TRIGGER MODULe

 

DPMS : LOWER RECEIVER PARTS KIT

 

ROCK RIVER ARMS carbine buffer

 

Hogue pistol grip

 

magpul trigger guard

You really don't have to get fancy. The bottom one is my wife's,Kimber, AR Totally stock Bushy Millet 1X4 Light up reticle

The Upper : oh and I shoot rifle left handed due to having cross dominance

 

16 inch fluted chrome barrel : YHM-45-F

 

VLTOR monolithic receiver & rail ext rifle length 17.5"

 

VLTOR Low-Profile-Gas-Block

 

Fail-zero : AR-15-Bolt-Carrier-Group-w-Hammer

 

Badger Ord : Left-Hand-Charging-Handle

 

DPMS : Gas-Tube-Roll-Pin

 

DPMS : Gas-Tube

 

Storm-Single-Point-Sling

light run and gun you say?

 

why would you even put a heavy rail system on there when the Magpul MOE weighs much less and still allows for accessory mounting..

 

what length gas system.. for "run and gun" mid length is a must IMO due to the reduced recoil..

 

reduced recoil = faster follow up shots

faster follow up shots = run and gun

Out of curiosity, how did you come up with that particular parts lists? You have a very bizarre combination of low end, mid range, and high end parts.

 

Anyway, some random thoughts in red below

Roggio arsenal.-Stripped Lower-Receiver (though if I find something reasonable local I will just grab it) Unless you happen to be very fond of the Roggio logo on the lower, there are much cheaper lowers online

http://www.wideners....ir=700|863|1068

 

SOCOM M4 stock Will need to be pinned - may be better off buying the fixed ACE stock if you like that look

 

DPMS : LOWER RECEIVER PARTS KIT - not a fan of DPMS lower kits as I've seen one that was out of spec and have heard/read the same from others. One of these may suit you better with the current palmetto free shipping deal http://palmettostate...parts-kits.html

 

16 inch fluted chrome barrel : YHM-45-F A 1:7 or 1:8 twist is probably a bit more versatile unless you never plan to shoot anything heavier than 65-69gr.

 

VLTOR monolithic receiver & rail ext rifle length 17.5" probably overkill unless you have a specific need for a monolothic upper

The LPK, like stated above palmetto has a good sale now with free shipping and it comes with the buffer tube, spring and buttstock

Hi Caine,

 

Thanks for the info. I will certainly be up for the alternate psa Parts kit & from what I can gather one receiver is much like another so cheaper is good.

 

As for how I came up with this Parts list, well one reason is my background. another may be its where my experience is lacking this may answer some of your Qs Vlad.

 

The 2 pieces that are a must have is the socom stock(pinned) & the monolithic receiver/rail.

 

I am used to treating a rifle as a cold weapon when up close, meaning I will used it to inflict damage at close quarters from striking with it, so a robust stock & 'Heavy rail' facilitate that. As a side effect, heavier rail should absorb recoil ... ?

 

I also want a clean sight line down the top of the Gun - think like an aircraft carrier runway - straight down with out interruption so monolithic it is.

 

As for why carbine length, I expect this to operate at relatively close ranges 25-75 yds, not camped out prone on a sandbag, trying to nail somethhing 300yds away, hence the shorter length though I could be convinced, rifle length is more appropriate.

JMHO, but if striking with the stock is a concern for you, then a pinned stock is probably not the way you want to go. You may want to look into the Sully Stock - http://www.thedefens...tegory_s/51.htm if you're looking for a short but very solid option.

 

Furthermore, when striking from the front, you will more than likely be using the muzzle device as the impact point, and probably not the rail... but weapons CQB isn't something I'm overly familiar with, so I'll leave it at that. Chris from MDTS (forum vendor) has a DVD that covers carbine combatives and may shed some more light on the subject if it's something you're interested in http://mdtstraining....ion=show_detail

 

You can achieve that same clean sight picture with a standard AR upper and any number of a different rail systems and probably save yourself a bit of money - for example, I run a Daniel Defense Lite 12 rail on one of my ARs to achieve the same overall effect

http://www.rainierar...&product_id=414

 

That said, "clean" is a relative term since even fold down iron sights will disrupt those "clean" lines

 

Lastly, regarding the length VladT asked about - he wasn't so much referring to the length of the AR you're thinking of building, but the gas system length. So, the mid-length gas system he mentioned doesn't mean the rifle is any longer than a carbine length gas system... it just means the gas ports are in a different location on the barrel. A pictures is worth a thousand words, so:

Carbine length barrel: http://www.aimsurplu...FSB&groupid=573

 

Mid-length barrel: http://www.aimsurplu...FSB&groupid=573

 

Same length barrel (16"), but, as you can see from the front sight block, the gas ports (which in this case are under the front sight) are in different locations.

 

Hope that helps a little.

Hi Caine,

 

Thanks for the info. I will certainly be up for the alternate psa Parts kit & from what I can gather one receiver is much like another so cheaper is good.

 

As for how I came up with this Parts list, well one reason is my background. another may be its where my experience is lacking this may answer some of your Qs Vlad.

 

The 2 pieces that are a must have is the socom stock(pinned) & the monolithic receiver/rail.

 

I am used to treating a rifle as a cold weapon when up close, meaning I will used it to inflict damage at close quarters from striking with it, so a robust stock & 'Heavy rail' facilitate that. As a side effect, heavier rail should absorb recoil ... ?

 

I also want a clean sight line down the top of the Gun - think like an aircraft carrier runway - straight down with out interruption so monolithic it is.

 

As for why carbine length, I expect this to operate at relatively close ranges 25-75 yds, not camped out prone on a sandbag, trying to nail somethhing 300yds away, hence the shorter length though I could be convinced, rifle length is more appropriate.

 

you are choosing parts based on a combination of "use" and visual appeal... so it will be hard for us to help you....

 

you are not going to hit someone with the rail of the gun.. if anything you would strike them with the stock or muzzle as caine mentioned...

an ACE skeleton stock is an inexpensive more solid answer to your stock choice... or cut some jagged points into the muzzle brake.. that can easily be used to motivate..

 

a heavy gun is a hindrance in every way when it come to real hard moving use..

if you use a mid length gas system the recoil is non existent.. I run a 14.5in barrel with a mid length gas system when I shoot laying on my side (think under a car) there is such little recoil that I really don't even need to fully shoulder the weapon (shooting odd angles).. and I still have complete control..

 

"clean line down the top" I get it.. people care about the way a gun looks.. but at the end of the day the gun that operates the best is the one that looks the best... IMHO the rail is a useless overdone accessory that people have just become used to.. maybe a free float rail with a bipod on a longer range gun... but the rail system is just useless IMO.. I run a lightweight hand guard that holds a light and a sling point rock solid.. the weight savings gets me on target much faster.. it makes transitions much faster..

 

and honestly on a run and gun type AR I actually prefer a gas block sight... because I know it is not going to move around... and it will always be ready if I need it.. one less thing to worry about if red dot goes out on me..

 

granted it may be only ounces.. but by the end of the day if you are really pushing yourself.. ounces will start to feel like tons...

 

it is your gun.. do what you like.. but I would not trade my AR for any other gun in a run and gun urban type environment..

Your shopping list is a mishmash of parts.

 

First up what there are misconceptions about the socom stock presented as fact above. The SOCOM stock can be installed with a push button to adjust, but also comes with a screw that replaces the button and locks it in place. It was developed during the AWB intended to be legal as a fixed stock for post ban guns or as a collapsible replacement for pre ban guns. YMMV with NJ law, who knows, but in that mode I would consider it less adjustable than a magpul PRS, and nobody is concerned about that. IT is made by the same people who make the ARFX stock. It shouldn't be any weaker because the primary source of strength for the ARFX stock is the gusset around the buffer tube. The socom has the same gusset around a proprietary tube that is beefier. HOWEVER, the SOCOM is actually pretty heavy, and there are known issues of the proprietary tube not mating up solidly with some receivers resulting in wobble. It's kind of pricey for taking that crap shoot IMO.

 

Second, the lower. Who the hell is roggio? At $129 on sale, I should know who they are. First hit after their website when googling roggio arsenal was this http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=314869 . There are tons of decent $99 lowers out there. Spikes is fine, palmetto state armory is basically the same, stag is good, rainier arms is good, rock river arms is good, mega is good, etc.

 

Third, the monolithic upper. $650? and 26 oz? for a 10" rail? Dude, spend your money more wisely. You can get a billet rianier arms upper, which is machined very nicely and is 9.3oz and their rianier branded samson rail at 9" for 9.5oz, or 11 inches for 10.5oz.

 

YHM barrel. Why the hell are you putting a $200 barrel on a $600 upper? I can tell you right now, you can pick up a noveske light wieght 18" barrel that will shoot WAY better than the YHM for $459, and it comes with a gas block and tube, and you can put it on a rianier billet upper for $189, which is BARELY heavier than a forged upper, but is machined VERY, VERY nicely, and put on a samson 11" forearm for another $151, and it will be a LOT, LOT lighter than your choice of upper and barrel, shoot better, and cost $799 as opposed to $833. Or just stick with a similar quality barrel with a midlength gas system. A spikes midlength 16" barrel + the rianier billet upper + their Sampson rial system would weigh in at 46.2 oz for the setup and cost all of $589 as opposed to over $830 and something over 52 oz. plus it will shoot better.

 

fail zero bolt carrier group - I perosnally don't think the nickel boron plated BCGs are wortht he money, but if you must have it, you can save a few bucks going with Kies, spike's tactical or any other number of competitors. At the very least don't bother getting the kit with the hammer when you are buying a drop in trigger pack that you can't change the hammer on (and shouldn't if you could).

 

Badger charging handle. Meh, cheaper and much nicer is the rianier ambidextrous.. currently on pre-order sale for $60 http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3172

If the VLTOR is a must, get it here and save your self some money.

http://www.gandrtact...=action&key=VIS

Grant is a stand up guy, and I can 100% vouch for G & R.

$574 as opposed to $645 at brownells

 

You need to stay out of the brownells catalog. Their prices are terrible.

A Gas Tube shouldn't cost you more than $13.

You don't need the Gas Tube Roll Pin. I should come with your gas block.

Unfortunately their out right now, but these 2 gas tubes should be better than the DPMS.

http://westernsportonline.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=56&products_id=933

http://www.operationparts.com/LMT_Mid_Length_Gas_Tube_For_AR_15_p/lmp146b.htm

 

Personal preference but I like Geissele's offering of triggers. And it's only $180

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SSA&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DGAUT

 

I also second raz-O on your lower of choice. Who's Roggio?

 

Only $80 more, but you can get a much better barrel.

Centurion Arms barrels are similar to the Noveskes. Made of M249 machinegun steel and double thickness chrome lining.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1435

 

You can do better than the DPMS LPK.

Lots of options here. Out of stock at the moment, but should be back soon.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=GRT-LPK&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DGRTA

 

Magpul has a nice 2 pt/ 1 pt sling.

http://www.rogtac.com/stocks-slings/slings/magpul-ms3-sling-black.html

http://www.skdtac.com/Magpul-MS3-Sling-p/mag.480.htm

I wasn't aware the socom stock came with a screw to limit adjustment.. and maybe I'm misunderstanding how it locks the length in place, but, since when is a screw an acceptable method of preventing a stock from "collapsing"?

I wasn't aware the socom stock came with a screw to limit adjustment.. and maybe I'm misunderstanding how it locks the length in place, but, since when is a screw an acceptable method of preventing a stock from "collapsing"?

 

Since there is no test case... And since the law is vague... I would say the test is can the stock adjust as it sits on the weapon at time of use... Not what can be done with a tool...

I wasn't aware the socom stock came with a screw to limit adjustment.. and maybe I'm misunderstanding how it locks the length in place, but, since when is a screw an acceptable method of preventing a stock from "collapsing"?

 

you can say the same about a pinned stock. If you break out a hammer and punch you can punch the pin out and adjust it. Its not "Permanent" by any means!

Yeah, nothing is really permanent.. I get that. However, pins are a generally accepted method of limiting the "collapsible" feature of a stock. I've never run across anything that would suggest an exposed screw would fall into that same level of "generally accepted" and I would hate for someone to read this thread and think they've found a "shortcut" and get jammed up because of it.

 

Again, I'm not familiar with the screws the SOCOM stock uses or how it limits movement, so, I may simply not be understanding how the mechanism works.

I wasn't aware the socom stock came with a screw to limit adjustment.. and maybe I'm misunderstanding how it locks the length in place, but, since when is a screw an acceptable method of preventing a stock from "collapsing"?

 

Find me guidelines for nj. During the awb a screw was cool. The socom shipped, Fulton armory also shipped the stubby entry stock with an accuracy speaks adjustable buttplate as ban compliant. It extended and collapsed if you broke out an alan wrench.

adjustable buttplate

 

is not a telescoping stock..

Find me guidelines for nj. During the awb a screw was cool. The socom shipped, Fulton armory also shipped the stubby entry stock with an accuracy speaks adjustable buttplate as ban compliant. It extended and collapsed if you broke out an alan wrench.

To my knowledge, there are no NJ guidelines regarding what is considered an acceptable method of pinning a stock. Which is why I went with "generally accepted" in my later post. Pinned stocks at least give the illusion of some sort of permanency. I'm just not getting that from a screw, regardless of what may have been ok during the AWB.

 

Anyway, we're going in circles with this and I think we scared away the OP, so onto bigger and better things

you are choosing parts based on a combination of "use" and visual appeal... so it will be hard for us to help you.... you are not going to hit someone with the rail of the gun..

....

"clean line down the top" I get it.. people care about the way a gun looks.. but at the end of the day the gun that operates the best is the one that looks the best... IMHO the rail is a useless overdone accessory that people have just become used to

 

Vlad,

 

I'll address the above first quotes first

 

You appear to be clueless in hand to hand combat with military weapons, there are many strike points with a rifle and the rail is one of them and I train in it regularily. Sometimes a large knowledge in one area does not translate to every other related area .. might be a a foible of yours

 

Also the assumption "a clean line of sight down the gun" is some sort of cosmetic peccadilio of mine is a tad condecending.

As opposed to me not wanting clutter up the top of the gun or have snag hazards when i am using the rifle.

 

As for overdone accessories, I followed your CX4 & AR builds in their separate thread and over-blown on tactical doo-dads would be an understatement but each to his own.

 

Now on to where some actual advice was given ..

 

an ACE skeleton stock is an inexpensive more solid answer to your stock choice... or cut some jagged points into the muzzle brake.. that can easily be used to motivate.. a heavy gun is a hindrance in every way when it come to real hard moving use.. if you use a mid length gas system the recoil is non existent.. I run a 14.5in barrel with a mid length gas system when I shoot laying on my side (think under a car) there is such little recoil that I really don't even need to fully shoulder the weapon (shooting odd angles).. and I still have complete control..

 

I just need a solid stock that wont crack when banged on something so i am open to anything that fits the bill.

I do not need jaggies that will cut me as much as anyone else near the gun.

I was unaware and surprised you could mate a rifle length gas system to a carbine length barrel. Something I need more info on but sounds like the way to go. What are the disadvantages fo not having a carbine gas length ?

 

 

I run a lightweight hand guard that holds a light and a sling point rock solid.. the weight savings gets me on target much faster.. it makes transitions much faster.. and honestly on a run and gun type AR I actually prefer a gas block sight... because I know it is not going to move around... and it will always be ready if I need it.. one less thing to worry about if red dot goes out on me.. granted it may be only ounces.. but by the end of the day if you are really pushing yourself.. ounces will start to feel like tons...

 

I do not like the gas block sights, and no not because of its stylish look, I do not like it as it seems that its a snag hazard

 

it is your gun.. do what you like.. but I would not trade my AR for any other gun in a run and gun urban type environment..

 

I am pretty sure a large segment feels the same way about their AR, the draw of the platform is it can satisfy a large variety of references/customisations

 

Irish Pete

I am going to assume that because I disagreed with you and made a comment you found offensive you feel the need to have this attitude about things.. but that is ok.. I have owned several AR series platforms.. and several AK series weapons... my combatives instructor was Marine Corp Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso.. This individual is credited with being an integral part in the creation of the Marine Corp martial arts training program... so I would consider him some what credible.. while not in the military I trained with this individual for several years.. maybe I do not know all the techniques you do and maybe that makes you more qualified.. but I am familiar with the weapon system you are asking about.. and I am familiar with fighting both with and without weapons... so whatever you think of me aside.. I do have some idea what I am talking about...

 

You appear to be clueless in hand to hand combat with military weapons, there are many strike points with a rifle and the rail is one of them and I train in it regularily. Sometimes a large knowledge in one area does not translate to every other related area .. might be a a foible of yours

 

clueless.. no..

 

Also the assumption "a clean line of sight down the gun" is some sort of cosmetic peccadilio of mine is a tad condesending.

As opposed to me not wanting clutter up the top of the gun or have snag hazards when i am using the rifle.

 

 

are you not going to use ANY iron sights at all?

how is a RAIL with countless metal ridges LESS of a snag hazard than a smooth handguard..

a BUIS is a big nub of metal on the end of the rail?

 

ANY sighting system can be a snag hazard... placing the front sling point behind the support hand has negated that potential for me..

 

granted we are different.. but I use my AR all the time with a chest rig and body armor WITH a sling.. and dont go snagging it on anything...

 

As for overdone accessories, I followed you CX4 & AR builds in their separate thread and over-blown on tactical doo-dads would be un-understatement but each to his own.

 

the CX4 is gone.. that was a fun gun.. but not really something I needed..

 

not sure why you are so bitter.. but whatever..

my "tacticool" AR has what on it?

a sling.. an Aimpoint red dot... and a flash light... yeah pretty useless stuff there.. that is sarcasm by the why..

my latest AR build is extremely light and with me operating it.. just about puts holes in holes...

 

I own TWO mid range rifles.. one AK and one AR.. they are identical because they are built with a purpose..

 

they BOTH have the following..

quality red dot

iron sights

a flashlight

a sling

 

now please.. fill me in one which one of those is overdone...

 

I just need a solid stock that wont crack when banged on something so i am open to anything that fits the bill.

 

when I lived in NJ I used the ACE skeleton stock.. it is a SOLID metal stock.. so there is no screw to break or sliding mechanism.. it is just a sturdy triangle of metal with a comfortable rubber pad at the back.. it is really a great unit..

 

I was unaware and surprised you could mate a rifle length gas system to a carbine length barrel. Something I need more info on but sounds like the way to go. What are the disadvantages fo not having a carbine gas length ?

 

a mid length system is between a rifle and carbine length..

the advantage is that when paired with the right buffer and a good quality brake.. the recoil is virtually non existent.. this allows for rapid follow up shots and less time off target.. using a shorter barrel saves you a couple inches making the gun tighter around corner..

 

I do not like the gas block sights, and no not because of its stylish look, I do not like it as it seems that its a snag hazard

 

 

to each their own.. I just find BUIS to be one more point of failure.. the gas mount sights are generally rock solid and always ready.. depending on where your sling is mounted and how loose it is.. I dont really see it snagging.. mine does not.. or at least has not..

 

I am pretty sure a large segment feels the same way about their AR, the draw of the platform is it can satisfy a large variety of references/customisations

 

I agree.. and my guns are built with a purpose.. I am FAR from an expert.. but I have owned and worked with many AK and some AR platforms.. I know what has worked for me.. and what has not.. so I assemble my guns based on that and what I feel the needs are...

 

you said my guns are overdone or whatever you said..

 

what good is a fighting gun in the dark if the entire area is without power.. are you going to hold your AR In one hand and a flashlight in the other?

my guns are built to address situations..

if you feel they are overdone that is just fine.. I didn't ask for your advice or approval.. you asked for ours... and my statements were intended to share my information.. to help you.. not to hurt your feelings or offend you in some way..

 

 

and for what its worth.. I stand my my statement of the rail.. I look at a million AR builds all the time... and they all have 5000 feet of rail and not a dam thing attached to it...

unneeded weight IMO...

 

good luck with the gun..

Your shopping list is a mishmash of parts.

Guilty, its my first AR build so I have to start somewhere and work up to a better build

 

First up what there are misconceptions about the socom stock presented as fact above. The SOCOM stock can be installed with a push button to adjust, but also comes with a screw that replaces the button and locks it in place. It was developed during the AWB intended to be legal as a fixed stock for post ban guns or as a collapsible replacement for pre ban guns. YMMV with NJ law, who knows, but in that mode I would consider it less adjustable than a magpul PRS, and nobody is concerned about that. IT is made by the same people who make the ARFX stock. It shouldn't be any weaker because the primary source of strength for the ARFX stock is the gusset around the buffer tube. The socom has the same gusset around a proprietary tube that is beefier. HOWEVER, the SOCOM is actually pretty heavy, and there are known issues of the proprietary tube not mating up solidly with some receivers resulting in wobble. It's kind of pricey for taking that crap shoot IMO.

 

hmmm. I hear what you are saying, and it would be preferable to put hands on the socom before buying it but it looks sturdy and fits in with my ideas for the AR. Any here use one ?

 

Second, the lower. Who the hell is roggio? At $129 on sale, I should know who they are. First hit after their website when googling roggio arsenal was this http://www.calguns.n...ad.php?t=314869 . There are tons of decent $99 lowers out there. Spikes is fine, palmetto state armory is basically the same, stag is good, rainier arms is good, rock river arms is good, mega is good, etc.

I now fully intend to get a spikes or PSA lower unless I can find something reasonable local to save shipping/transfer.

 

Third, the monolithic upper. $650? and 26 oz? for a 10" rail? Dude, spend your money more wisely. You can get a billet rianier arms upper, which is machined very nicely and is 9.3oz and their rianier branded samson rail at 9" for 9.5oz, or 11 inches for 10.5oz.

Its actually 17.5" and 25 ounces, is there something that approaches this from Rainier ( got a link )

 

YHM barrel. Why the hell are you putting a $200 barrel on a $600 upper? I can tell you right now, you can pick up a noveske light wieght 18" barrel that will shoot WAY better than the YHM for $459, and it comes with a gas block and tube, and you can put it on a rianier billet upper for $189, which is BARELY heavier than a forged upper, but is machined VERY, VERY nicely, and put on a samson 11" forearm for another $151, and it will be a LOT, LOT lighter than your choice of upper and barrel, shoot better, and cost $799 as opposed to $833. Or just stick with a similar quality barrel with a midlength gas system. A spikes midlength 16" barrel + the rianier billet upper + their Sampson rial system would weigh in at 46.2 oz for the setup and cost all of $589 as opposed to over $830 and something over 52 oz. plus it will shoot better.

 

Thats a lot of jargon, I am having trouble parsing it. I m looking for a carbine length barrel, I picked this one as its fluted and would save some weight. Is it the 1-9 twist that is a big minus with this barrel ? As for the rest I will have to try and understand what you are suggesting as an alternative as its still unclear to me as a newbie.

 

just a note, 52 oz is 3.5 pounds, not exactly featherlight but not something to double as a weight lifting device. My wife's shotgun seems absurdly heavy weighing in at over 6 lbs but she manages to lug it about for 4 hrs running & gunning without going into palpitations.

 

I am appreciative of all the help you guys provide even if It seems I sometimes am not getting the point. I just have to ask for patience while I find my way

 

Irish Pete

Thats a lot of jargon, I am having trouble parsing it. I m looking for a carbine length barrel, I picked this one as its fluted and would save some weight. Is it the 1-9 twist that is a big minus with this barrel ? As for the rest I will have to try and understand what you are suggesting as an alternative as its still unclear to me as a newbie.

 

YHM barrel. Why the hell are you putting a $200 barrel on a $600 upper? I can tell you right now, you can pick up a noveske light wieght 18" barrel that will shoot WAY better than the YHM for $459, and it comes with a gas block and tube,

 

and you can put it on a rianier billet upper for $189, which is BARELY heavier than a forged upper, but is machined VERY, VERY nicely, and put on a samson 11" forearm for another $151, and it will be a LOT, LOT lighter than your choice of upper and barrel, shoot better, and cost $799 as opposed to $833.

 

OR

 

just stick with a similar quality barrel with a midlength gas system. A spikes midlength 16" barrel + the rianier billet upper + their Sampson rial system would weigh in at 46.2 oz for the setup and cost all of $589 as opposed to over $830 and something over 52 oz. plus it will shoot better.

 

he is telling you that with the same money spent.. spending it in different places will net a better result..

 

spending money on a quality barrel VS the upper receiver (for example)

choosing where to spend the largest chunk of your budget...

just a note, 52 oz is 3.5 pounds, not exactly featherlight but not something to double as a weight lifting device. My wife's shotgun seems absurdly heavy weighing in at over 6 lbs but she manages to lug it about for 4 hrs running & gunning without going into palpitations.

 

 

It is 6 3/4 pounds with factory stock , i added the milspec stock so closer to 8 pounds I'm sure.

 

Save a few bucks wherever you can , they billed and shipped my D800 today.

he is telling you that with the same money spent.. spending it in different places will net a better result..

 

spending money on a quality barrel VS the upper receiver (for example)

choosing where to spend the largest chunk of your budget...

 

Yes, I get that, I am trying to figure out the particulars, As in what would the alternative upper look like ?

 

Hell, where to even order the alternate parts from and make sure it still fits the rest of the order

 

Irish Pete

Yes, I get that, I am trying to figure out the particulars, As in what would the alternative upper look like ?

 

Hell, where to even order the alternate parts from and make sure it still fits the rest of the order

 

Irish Pete

 

it really depends on what you want.. I bought my upper together spikes upper from aim surplus..

and it works great.. and others have had similar results... shoots nice tight groups.. but is obviously not some $3k target match shooting AR..

 

I do not honestly know the limitations of the platform yet because I am just starting to shoot it..

 

but as far as run and gun goes.. I am VERY happy with my 14in spikes combo and I think it was like 600 bucks give or take..

 

buying a complete upper that fits your needs takes a little of the guess work out of it.. and if you get a combo that others have used and is proven for your intended use.. it is kind of win win..

I would not hesitate to buy a complete spikes upper again...

 

spikes.. (aim surplus)

bravo company..

both get good reviews and are really reasonable..

Yes, I get that, I am trying to figure out the particulars, As in what would the alternative upper look like ?

 

Hell, where to even order the alternate parts from and make sure it still fits the rest of the order

 

Irish Pete

 

Like I said in my last post. Stay away from Brownells. They are more expensive than most places.

I linked several sites that are good places and that I've shopped at.

A couple random observations...

 

The sterngth of the rail as it may be applied to fighting. In my opinion THIS is really not a concern. What is more of a concern when talking about the strength of a rail is for the rails themselves to resist bending when attachments are on them and you do something like fall on them! Or the integrity of the rail to resist flex and move your optics or accuracy sensitive attachments like a DBAL under sling pressure. As for the structural strength of the rail in a strike, I think any rail is likely strong enough. Its not the rail I would worry about. Its the interface with the reciever its self. If it uses some weak thin interface, this will likely be the point of failure.

 

Monolithic VS interupted rail. I personally like monolithic rails. But this is because I play with a metric ton of optics and mounting solutions so the mono rail makes it easy for me but there is a weight penalty.

 

Weight of the system. I have played with both ends of this spectrum. I know I do not like a heavy rifle, but the funny thing is I do not like an exceptionally light one either! A well balenced rifle hovering around 8 lbs all in is what works best for me. This is not an opinion that is based solely on feel. On the clock shooting consistant drills amongst all the platforms, my speed and accuracy is faster with the rifle that weighs a bit more. Counterintuitive, I know, but I know what feels right and the clock and the targets dictate whats working.

 

I like the sopmod stock. I like it for its feel. I also like the ACS which feels the same but is a bit less weight. But if the length was just right, Id just use a standard A2 being we are in Jerseystan!

 

A last note, I find firearms to be distinctly personal choices. And it is usually a long road littered with resales and lost money until you arrive at what works for you. And the second you think you got it figured, many times you dont as you stumble on to another way of addressing the solution that is better than what you were doing. And of course the tacticool world of AR's is avast wasteland of snake oils which certainly complicates matters. But in the end we all want the very best equipment we can aquire. But sometimes you have to take a hard look at what difference is it really going to make for you, especially if your working wihin a budget. I can assure you that if I go play golf with a set of clubs from wallmart or if Tiger woods loans me his personal bag, it will make no difference in my game. So my general advice would be KISS theory. Keep it simple, keep it built with quality components focusing on the barrel, bolt group and trigger and a kown good reciever set. Everything else is likely to change. I think there is merit to the position that in the upper end of AR's it simply might not be a worthy pursuit to build your own. Based on the criteria presented (budget unknown) a KAC SR15-E3 or a Danial Defence M4V3 would fit the bill and be an excellent rifle.

Irish Pete,

 

Good on you for wanting to try something new and get into the wonderfully addictive and expensive world of the M16/AR15 family of weapons.

 

Reading your posts, I do have a question. Why are you building your rifle around what you think you will need for "combatives" instead of being a more effective shooting rifle? That would be like designing a club based on your shooting style, and them using the club for combat standing 25 feet from your enemy.

 

I carry an AR regularly for work. I am trained in some combatives with the rifle, but my rifle is primarily for shooting fast and accurately at targets from <1 - 250 yards, and is set up that way. The fact that it can also be used as an impact weapon in a "hand to hand" fight is of secondary importance and is more of an "I have an 8 pound club strapped to my body, may as well figure out how to use it to hit this guy instead of using my fists" bonus then a design feature. Optic, sights, rails, lights, magazine, pistol grip, (not to mention any LBE you may be carrying in support of your rifle, such as armor, magazines, pouches, etc...) these are all "snag hazards" and on a fighting gun, they are also all essential equipment. The combatives used when carrying a rifle are designed to work around the rifle and equipment, it shouldn't be the other way around.

 

Using a rifle as a contact weapon like that is an act of last resort and often times done in desperation. You should not be planning to hit something with your rifle every time you sling in. Plan on shooting your rifle and be prepared to hit something "just in case".

 

Now, if you want to build a rifle specifically to train in combatives, or to experiment to see what works, go for it. Please report back to the forum your findings on what works and what doesn't. I for one would be very interested.

 

If you want to build a shooter for HD/SD or gun games, then build a shooter, not a club.

 

Edited for clarity

Edited July 3, 201214 yr by High Exposure