I tried to order the Si Sauer ACP enhanced from cheaper than dirt. Put it in my cart 2

weeks ago they said it was legal, fast forward last night tried to pay for it and they said they would not ship it because it is not legal in NJ. Is that true? I would think its nothing more than a damn rail with a sight and a bungee sheesh.

That would make it a Short Barreled Rifle, needing an ATF tax stamp, therefore illegal in Jersey. I think I got everything. If not someone else will chime in

In nj we are not allowed to have anything cool, this is very cool there for not allowed.

oh.....Damn. There goes my evening then.

The civilian version does not have a butt stock. The ACP, in and of itself is perfectly legal in NJ - as was pointed out, it is nothing but a housing with some rails on it. The problem may occur when you install your handgun of choice in the ACP.

 

The ACP is made of aluminum and weighs appx 25 oz. If you recall the "evil features" list for handguns, one is a maximum weight of 50 oz. While there are handguns that weigh 25 oz or less, there are a lot more that weigh in excess of 25 oz, meaning: Evil feature number 1.

 

The ACP completely surrounds the barrel, allowing you to "hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned" to wit - a barrel shroud: Evil feature number two and you're outta here.

 

A retailer could lawfully sell you the ACP because it is not a "firearm" until you install your handgun - at which time it may (more likely) or may not (less likely) become illegal. If I was a merchant, the last thing I'd want, in today's litigious society, would be to put my customer in a possible jackpot with the law.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

PS: Actually, without a butt stock I think this thing is the most useless item to be pandered to the firearm community - but maybe that's just me.

I just wanted the one without the stock. I thought it was cool and wanted to try it out.

totally NJ legal, no evil features to talk off. Send a PM to Bullseyetactial here on the forum. He has a few

yay!

yay!

 

well? I want this thread updated when you get one

 

well? I want this thread updated when you get one

yes'm massa he'sa be updatin!

The civilian version does not have a butt stock. The ACP, in and of itself is perfectly legal in NJ - as was pointed out, it is nothing but a housing with some rails on it. The problem may occur when you install your handgun of choice in the ACP.

 

The ACP is made of aluminum and weighs appx 25 oz. If you recall the "evil features" list for handguns, one is a maximum weight of 50 oz. While there are handguns that weigh 25 oz or less, there are a lot more that weigh in excess of 25 oz, meaning: Evil feature number 1.

 

The ACP completely surrounds the barrel, allowing you to "hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned" to wit - a barrel shroud: Evil feature number two and you're outta here.

 

A retailer could lawfully sell you the ACP because it is not a "firearm" until you install your handgun - at which time it may (more likely) or may not (less likely) become illegal. If I was a merchant, the last thing I'd want, in today's litigious society, would be to put my customer in a possible jackpot with the law.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

PS: Actually, without a butt stock I think this thing is the most useless item to be pandered to the firearm community - but maybe that's just me.

 

I agree with Bob here.

 

 

And ,.... THIS again ?

The civilian version does not have a butt stock. The ACP, in and of itself is perfectly legal in NJ - as was pointed out, it is nothing but a housing with some rails on it. The problem may occur when you install your handgun of choice in the ACP.

 

The ACP is made of aluminum and weighs appx 25 oz. If you recall the "evil features" list for handguns, one is a maximum weight of 50 oz. While there are handguns that weigh 25 oz or less, there are a lot more that weigh in excess of 25 oz, meaning: Evil feature number 1.

 

The ACP completely surrounds the barrel, allowing you to "hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned" to wit - a barrel shroud: Evil feature number two and you're outta here.

 

A retailer could lawfully sell you the ACP because it is not a "firearm" until you install your handgun - at which time it may (more likely) or may not (less likely) become illegal. If I was a merchant, the last thing I'd want, in today's litigious society, would be to put my customer in a possible jackpot with the law.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

PS: Actually, without a butt stock I think this thing is the most useless item to be pandered to the firearm community - but maybe that's just me.

 

The law states a MANUFACTURED weight of 50 oz or more, not a total weight after you add on accesories to the weapon. Therefore leaving you with only 1 "evil" feature (barrel shroud) and making this IMHO legal, but I agree with you about it being usless since we cant have the one with the buttstock.

 

 

http://njgunforums.c...j-gun-law-faqs/

A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

 

 

This means that if it is a semi-automatic pistol and has a detachable magazine it can have ONE of the following features and still be legal, but if it has two or more, then it would not be legal.

 

(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor,

forward handgrip, or silencer;

(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and

that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being

burned;

(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded

(5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm

 

The law states a MANUFACTURED weight of 50 oz or more, not a total weight after you add on accesories to the weapon. Therefore leaving you with only 1 "evil" feature (barrel shroud) and making this IMHO legal

 

That may be a viable defense, but I wouldn't want to gamble my freedom on it.

So your saying that if I have a 1911 with a rail on it (Springfield TRP for example) that weighs 45oz, and put a light on it that weighs 6oz then that gun is now illegal because the gun now weighs 51oz with the light on it?

So your saying that if I have a 1911 with a rail on it (Springfield TRP for example) that weighs 45oz, and put a light on it that weighs 6oz then that gun is now illegal because the gun now weighs 51oz with the light on it?

argument can be that that's not permanent feature of the firearm i guess. At the same time neither is the acp. Depends on the judge and prosecutor and if they got laid the night before

So your saying that if I have a 1911 with a rail on it (Springfield TRP for example) that weighs 45oz, and put a light on it that weighs 6oz then that gun is now illegal because the gun now weighs 51oz with the light on it?

 

I wouldn't think so because the manufactured weight is 45oz, and the light shouldn't be taken into consideration because it's an accessory.

I wouldn't think so because the manufactured weight is 45oz, and the light shouldn't be taken into consideration because it's an accessory.

My point exactly, the ACP is just an accessory (albeit a useless one).

 

Not to mention if you have a 1911 that weighs 45oz unloaded, as soon as you load it it would be over 50oz then as well.

 

And yes I am aware that just being 50oz or more is not illegal, only when combined with another "evil" feature it becomes illegal.

Did the OP send a PM to bullzeyetactical yet? He's sold a few already.

PM Sent

first saw this set up about a week ago when i decided i had a hard on for sigs. looks pretty nifty, but what about that forward vertical grip? yes i know it probably doesn't come with it, but i havent seen mention of NFA in any of the advertisements and they all had a forwar grip installed. didnt the NFA say something about forward vertical grips on a pistol?

first saw this set up about a week ago when i decided i had a hard on for sigs. looks pretty nifty, but what about that forward vertical grip? yes i know it probably doesn't come with it, but i havent seen mention of NFA in any of the advertisements and they all had a forwar grip installed. didnt the NFA say something about forward vertical grips on a pistol?

 

yes they do. Forward grip on a Pistol Makes it an AOW.

 

Direct from ATF

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand… Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2 (5320.2). The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4 (5320.4), which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

Ok so, I add a grip to an attachment, add the attachment to a pistol and voila I have magically created a new unregistered un lawful weapon even though the original pistol has a serial number. WTH. It is a prosthetic device that can possibly increase accuracy. It does not make a handgun any less or more concealable.

Thus we are back to the original conjecture. If it just an accessory, and not a firearm, per se, with your handgun installed, then shouldn't you be able to add the forward grip? If the ACP, with a firearm added is not restricted by NJ's "evil feature" law, then why shouldn't you be able to add a vertical foregrip to the "accessory"?

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

Its federal law that says you cant put a VFG on a pistol without registering it as a AOW, not NJ law.

I understand that, but if Federal law considers the assembly a firearm, wouldn't NJ also? And in the absence of a definitive answer, wouldn't the state look to an entity like the BATFE for a definition?

 

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. It really makes no difference to me sice I have no desire to own one of these. I think it's a little more than an "accessory" that attaches to a handgun, though, as it alters the physical properties and handling characteristics - more like vice versa. When does it cease being an "accessory" and become a modification - one that renders the parent firearm illegal?

 

Chris (@ Bullseye) told me that he had spoken to the NJSP and they were OK with it - if I were purchasing one, I'd want that on their letterhead, which we all know isn't going to happen.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Chris (@ Bullseye) told me that he had spoken to the NJSP and they were OK with it - if I were purchasing one, I'd want that on their letterhead, which we all know isn't going to happen.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I agree, I'll leave that contraption alone.

It's NJ Legal, now who's gonna spend the bread and get one?

FYI the standard model only weighs approximately 17 oz, not 25 oz

FYI the standard model only weighs approximately 17 oz, not 25 oz

 

When this first became available, Sig had it on their site at 25 oz. Would really like to scale one....Chris?

 

 

When this first became available, Sig had it on their site at 25 oz. Would really like to scale one....Chris?

 

Possibly had only one style available in the beginning I was just on their site and the standard weighs in at 17oz the ehanced is 17.3 oz and LEO is 24 oz