I'm lookin for a new bolt gun chambered in .223. I'm up in the air on two rifles. The FN Herstal TSR USA, or the Remington 700 SPS Tactical. The FN is much more expensive than the Remington. I'm thinking I could take the money saved on the Remington and get a new trigger or stock, or both. The FN looks cool, but I can't find a whole lot of info on it. Anyone with any experience with it? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

OMG Customs has two bedded 700's and an fn. You should go there and take a look. The 700's are really nice

Look at Savage. I think Remington (except for their high end stuff) has gone to crap. The Companies they acquired (Marlin and Bushmaster) certainly have.

 

Do some Google searches on Remington/Marlin/BM quality control.

This is my standard reply to those wishing to purchase a .223/5.56 bolt gun - make sure you know what the twist rate is and whether it is suitable for the ammunition you intend to use. If you already have an AR and you have ammo stockpiled in the usual AR bullet weights (55 and/or 62 grain) for the typical AR twist rates (1:7 / 1:8 / 1:9), then make sure the BA has a similar twist rate. A lot of heavy barrel bolt guns - especially if you are buying an older one in the secondary market - have twist rates for varmint weight bullets (35 - 45 grain) at typically a 1:12 twist. The slower twist may work with heavier bullets, but why take the chance? Just a heads-up.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I love Savage. I was thinkin of buyin another Savage. I actually just sold my Savage Model 25 Lightweight Varminter in .223. That's why I'm lookin for another .223. Just wanted to try something other than Savage for once. I have 3 of them.

This is my standard reply to those wishing to purchase a .223/5.56 bolt gun - make sure you know what the twist rate is and whether it is suitable for the ammunition you intend to use. If you already have an AR and you have ammo stockpiled in the usual AR bullet weights (55 and/or 62 grain) for the typical AR twist rates (1:7 / 1:8 / 1:9), then make sure the BA has a similar twist rate. A lot of heavy barrel bolt guns - especially if you are buying an older one in the secondary market - have twist rates for varmint weight bullets (35 - 45 grain) at typically a 1:12 twist. The slower twist may work with heavier bullets, but why take the chance? Just a heads-up.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

From what I can find, the Remmy and the FN both have a 1:9 twist rate so I should be good with the ammo I have.

If you want to try something a little different....

 

CZ. It has the nicest wood I have seen on any non-custom rifles. And the rifles are definitely shooters. I had a CZ 452 in 17HM2, and it was a great rifle.

 

Model 527.

 

Varmint model has 1:9 twist

http://www.cz-usa.co...cz-527-varmint/

 

American 1:12 twist

http://www.cz-usa.co...z-527-american/

 

Lux has 1:12 twist

http://www.cz-usa.co...iew/cz-527-lux/

 

Carbine 1:12

http://www.cz-usa.co...cz-527-carbine/

After reading about Remington QC, I'm a little worried about them. The CZ looks very nice, and I've heard a lot of good things about them. I should have mentioned that I'm looking for something with a heavy barrel.

Actually, the more I read about the Remington QC issues it seems the they're mostly with Marlin's lever guns...

The CZ 527 Varmint comes with a heavy barrel.

Oh. Lol. Didn't notice that.

Pizza Bob hit it right on the head , a LOT of Bolt Action .223 rifles are 1:12 Twist (which is totally a varmint round setup) and even if you get 1:9, if you have optimized your ammo porffolio for your 1:7 AR(s), you might not be happy with the fact the new rifle doesn't shoot your stuff very well.

 

Having said that, you would probably love a Remington 700 SPS Tactical like you said, or Savage - I like the LE Model 10 "Precision Carbine". That is what I had intended to buy but I walked out with a Remington 700 AAC-SD (Which is a specific model in the SPS Tactical line basically- 20" heavy barrel, 1:10 Twist, threaded muzzle, 5 round capacity .308) ... Now I absolutely love mine but I am also totally into Savage and their Law Enforcement series rifles are some of the best bang for buck you could find, and I am all about the bang for buck. I know the Savage Precision Carbine is available in .223, and am sure a bunch of their other ones are (I believe their standard 10 series with either a HS Precision stock, McMillian stock, etc.).

 

For the price, you are hard pressed to beat a Savage or Remington 700 in a bolt action rifle IMHO. I went Remington but love Savage and have one of their .22's.

I was seriously thinking about the Model 10 Precision Carbine. After all, I have one in .308. I just had a hard time justifying owning 2 of the same rifle. I just don't know what to do exactly. I really am torn. Right now I'm really up in the air between the Remmy and the Savage.

Now here's something that maybe Pizza Bob, or anyone for that matter would like to chime in on. I'm reading all over that internet that a 1:12 twist is ideal for 55-63gr bullets. Now I'm not doubting Bob, but surely not everyone could be wrong. I'm just trying to make a good decision, as all of my ammo except for some 5.56 I have is 55gr. By the way, I'm now looking into a Howa, which is a 1:12 twist.

From a practical standpoint, bullet stabilization is more a factor of bullet length rather than bullet weight. In relation to twist rate, longer bullets (that are typically heavier than shorter bullets) need a faster twist rate to stabilize correctly.

 

1:12 (1 complete revolution of the projectile in 12") is a slower twist rate than 1:9 (1 complete revolution of the projectile in 9"), ie. A projectile in a 1:9 barrel will complete a full revolution in less distance than a projectile in a 1:12 barrel.

Now here's something that maybe Pizza Bob, or anyone for that matter would like to chime in on. I'm reading all over that internet that a 1:12 twist is ideal for 55-63gr bullets. Now I'm not doubting Bob, but surely not everyone could be wrong. I'm just trying to make a good decision, as all of my ammo except for some 5.56 I have is 55gr. By the way, I'm now looking into a Howa, which is a 1:12 twist.

 

1:12 should stabilize the bullet weights you are mentioning. That's the simple cut and dried answer. However, you can Google something called the "Greenhill Formula" and it explains twist rates a bit more, but that has changed over the years since bullet construction has become enhanced. There is a bit of reading in the next link and a calculator to compute rate of twist: http://kwk.us/twist.html

 

There are some twist rate tables in the attached link that give a good guideline of what will work for you. http://www.montanabu...com/page11.html

 

You can search the web and there are free downloads out there for the Greenhill formula that you can put on your desktop/laptop to play with.

 

As others have noted, with any rifle barrel and twist, many are unique individuals when it comes to which bullet they shoot the best, either by weight, length, bearing surface, flat-base or boattail, exposed lead core, hollowpoint or polymer-tipped. The conundrum I see today, or lack of, depending how you view the situation, is that there are more bullet choices available than there were decades ago.

It was my understanding 1:9 is optimized for 55 gr, 1:7 is optimized for 62gr. 1:7 can go from 62-77gr no problem.... 1:9 can go from 55 up to 62 but i know I didn't have as much success in 62gr as I did in 55 gr with a 1:9 14.5" HBAR (Didnt like that fact but noticed it a little).

 

IMHO 1:12 is Specifically for Varmint weight bullets and that is not including 55gr. that is the 30s and 40s grain bullet weights. I am not saying it won't shoot 55gr. But if you are specifically looking to shoot 55-62gr you , IMHO *and only* IMHO, do not want a 1:12.

 

 

 

 

And about the Precision Carbine... Now I would feel perfectly comfortable owning two of the same guns in different calibers... I wouldn't even mind an exact match pair. But if you want you could always expand your horizon with a 700 or even a different Savage rifle.

Well, guys, I've made a decision. This weekend I will be picking up a brand new FN Herstal TSR. We'll see how it goes. I'll report back once I get it out on the range.