I have a few permits coming in. I seem to find better deals through private sale than through an ffl

 

I have never done one before and I am very anxious about it as I know govt will find reasons to say what you do is illegal, so I want to gather stories from you guys as to what should happen to comply 100% with the law. My understanding is you exchange the p2p and show an fid and drivers license to confirm your identity. The seller fills out the sellers portion and mails it back to authorities.

 

What it the seller never mails it in? Or fails to correctly fill it out? Can any of this stuff come back to bite the buyer? Now the buyer is sitting on a serial number that may not legally belong to him.

 

I just want to be armed with the knowledge of the laws and your experiences before I engage in some private purchases

Bring a stamped and addressed envelope and drop it in the mailbox together if you are worried about mailing the permit. The one time I did this I sent it registered mail.

As long as you have your copy of the P2P showing the transfer than you are good to go. If the seller doesn't send in the paperwork it is all on him and has nothing to do with you.

 

As for filling it out correctly, the seller has to fill it out in your presence as you get a completed copy of it when you leave with the firearm.

The legal obligation to send the copies in is upon the seller.

Can it come back to bite the buyer = YES! I'm specifically referring to incorrect completion of the purchase permit. I had this happen with one FTF and had to reach out to the seller and get notarized statement from him and get it to the NJSP and my local PD. Believe it or not, they do check them.

 

With that said, I have done almost 2 dozen FTFs since being back in NJ and that one instance was the only hiccup, and it was really only due to poor handwriting and I didn't catch it.

 

I always make sure that the permit is completed right at time of transfer, copies seperated, and sealed in pre-addressed, stampled envelopes I provide to the seller.

So the pre addressed / stamped envelopes I should bring are

 

1. To the state police

 

And

 

2. To my municipal police where my fid is registered?

 

I assume this obligates you to file this for the purpose of collecting sales tax from the state/IRS?

So the pre addressed / stamped envelopes I should bring are

 

1. To the state police

 

And

 

2. To my municipal police where my fid is registered?

 

I assume this obligates you to file this for the purpose of collecting sales tax from the state/IRS?

 

You have no sales tax certificate issued because you are not a (gun) business. You can't collect sales tax.

 

I have never heard of anyone ever having to pay or collect sales tax in a FTF sale of anything other than a motor vehicle and that's collectect by the MVC.

You have no sales tax certificate issued because you are not a (gun) business. You can't collect sales tax.

 

I have never heard of anyone ever having to pay or collect sales tax in a FTF sale of anything other than a motor vehicle and that's collectect by the MVC.

 

Actually, you are to pay Use Tax to NJ.

I meant that I somehow would owe sales tax to the state from the purchase I am making from the private seller. Would I not be obligated, since the transaction will be documented by the state with the paperwork, to pay the IRS at the end of the year for that state sales tax on the transaction?

 

If this really is as simple as it seems, I would likely opt to do private sale more often

Yes it really is that simple. Just be aware that private sales of handguns are still limited to the OGAM law.

I have done a few without problems. I know the responsibilities and what needs to be done. If I were to get another party who argued with me about paperwork, I wouldn't complete the transaction. But I haven't had that problem.

It really is that simple! I have done a couple now and as long as you do the paperwork rite and follow the one gun a month rule you will never have a problem.

I really prefer FTF over the gunshop any day. At least the gunshop environment lately anyway.

Ken

While my instance was not a sale but an even exchange,I took the liberty of sending both my and my friend's copy in the same envelopes to the state and township. That was around Thanksgiving and I have yet to hear from either entity informing me it was done wrong., but we all know how slow the wheels turn.

I meant that I somehow would owe sales tax to the state from the purchase I am making from the private seller. Would I not be obligated, since the transaction will be documented by the state with the paperwork, to pay the IRS at the end of the year for that state sales tax on the transaction?

 

If this really is as simple as it seems, I would likely opt to do private sale more often

OK, lets clarify a few things:

 

The state, not the IRS, collects sales and use taxes.

 

You are obligated by law to pay use tax (to the state of NJ) on anything taxable that you did not pay sales tax on, whether it's a $2000 big screen TV from you buddy or a $.50 candy bar from your cousin. That being said, no one does it, and the state hasn't, at least so far, gone after private persons for this, outside of maybe a few rare insistences. So don't worry about the use tax.

OK, lets clarify a few things:

 

The state, not the IRS, collects sales and use taxes.

 

You are obligated by law to pay use tax (to the state of NJ) on anything taxable that you did not pay sales tax on, whether it's a $2000 big screen TV from you buddy or a $.50 candy bar from your cousin. That being said, no one does it, and the state hasn't, at least so far, gone after private persons for this, outside of maybe a few rare insistences. So don't worry about the use tax.

 

Sorry, but you are mistaken! The State of NJ has been all over Use Tax violations for several years now. Ask anyone you might know who bought mail order cigarettes in quantity and frequently. If they had more staff on-hand, I'm sure they'd police it to smaller dollar amounts. Magically, if by some sixth sense, the tax man had no problem sniffing around the purchase of the collection I made last year... The ONLY way NJ would have ever known about this was the paperwork NJ ever saw was the stack of purchase permits for the handguns under my exemption transfer. Can you get away with it, most likely. Saying not to worry about it is sort of bold to someone looking for facts. Particularly because it is grounds for revocation of your FPID. The duplicates out of the purchase permits seem to live on instead of being destroyed as the law suggests should be (i.e., no registry).

Thanks for the advice to all.

 

Anything further or interesting anecdotes from your personal experiences are appreciated.

It's simple. Usually what I like to do is have the buyer take the one form back to their issuing authority and have the seller mail the other form to the state police. I find it to be less of a PITA that way because the buyer can just take it back to the PD and the seller won't have to look around for the issuing PD's info.

It's simple. Usually what I like to do is have the buyer take the one form back to their issuing authority and have the seller mail the other form to the state police. I find it to be less of a PITA that way because the buyer can just take it back to the PD and the seller won't have to look around for the issuing PD's info.

 

Issuing PD's and NJSP address is on the form. IIRC the law says the "seller is required". You really must trust the buyer to have them fulfill your obligation.

Sorry, but you are mistaken! The State of NJ has been all over Use Tax violations for several years now. Ask anyone you might know who bought mail order cigarettes in quantity and frequently. If they had more staff on-hand, I'm sure they'd police it to smaller dollar amounts. Magically, if by some sixth sense, the tax man had no problem sniffing around the purchase of the collection I made last year... The ONLY way NJ would have ever known about this was the paperwork NJ ever saw was the stack of purchase permits for the handguns under my exemption transfer. Can you get away with it, most likely. Saying not to worry about it is sort of bold to someone looking for facts. Particularly because it is grounds for revocation of your FPID. The duplicates out of the purchase permits seem to live on instead of being destroyed as the law suggests should be (i.e., no registry).

The NJ taxman spends most of his time auditing businesses, because that's where they get get the best return on their investment. In this area, I have heard numerous stories of businesses, particularly professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc.), getting jammed up by the taxman over use taxes.

 

Cigarettes are another story, there's a lot more tax than just sales tax that was not being paid when people ordered from the Indian reservations. The state saw that as a priority because they had too much to loose there.

 

I agree, if they had more staff they would go after the smaller amounts, but understaffing is a perennial problem, and I don't think it's very likely to change soon.

 

You would be the first instance I have heard of where someone was asked to pay use tax on a FTF gun transaction (I'm hoping it's not the start of a new trend) . They may very well have found you through the permits, the taxman likes to use official documents to ensnare tax cheats. However, don't underestimate the many different ways they may have come to find you, the one thing you should always remember is that if they audit you, most likely they already have the info they need before they even contact you.

 

What did the state do when they found out you didn't pay the use tax on the collection purchase, send you a letter asking you to remit payment? Most likely, this is why I said don't worry about it. If they find out and decide to act on it, you will most likely be asked to pay up and it will most likely go away with that.

 

Any pistols you own that were bought on a permit (at least the ones since the 90's) are in the NJSP's computer system and can be readily looked up by anyone with the authority to do so. Not sure why the taxman would have gone after you, unless they noticed an unusually large amount of permits coming from a private seller and that raised a red flag, where going though a dealer might not?

The NJ taxman spends most of his time auditing businesses, because that's where they get get the best return on their investment. In this area, I have heard numerous stories of businesses, particularly professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc.), getting jammed up by the taxman over use taxes.

 

Cigarettes are another story, there's a lot more tax than just sales tax that was not being paid when people ordered from the Indian reservations. The state saw that as a priority because they had too much to loose there.

 

I agree, if they had more staff they would go after the smaller amounts, but understaffing is a perennial problem, and I don't think it's very likely to change soon.

 

You would be the first instance I have heard of where someone was asked to pay use tax on a FTF gun transaction (I'm hoping it's not the start of a new trend) . They may very well have found you through the permits, the taxman likes to use official documents to ensnare tax cheats. However, don't underestimate the many different ways they may have come to find you, the one thing you should always remember is that if they audit you, most likely they already have the info they need before they even contact you.

 

What did the state do when they found out you didn't pay the use tax on the collection purchase, send you a letter asking you to remit payment? Most likely, this is why I said don't worry about it. If they find out and decide to act on it, you will most likely be asked to pay up and it will most likely go away with that.

 

Any pistols you own that were bought on a permit (at least the ones since the 90's) are in the NJSP's computer system and can be readily looked up by anyone with the authority to do so. Not sure why the taxman would have gone after you, unless they noticed an unusually large amount of permits coming from a private seller and that raised a red flag, where going though a dealer might not?

 

My transfers went through an NJ FFL because the collection was purchased out of state. It was certainly an "unusually large" number of permits, and all my paperwork was in order as I'm a licensed professional and plan to keep it that way. However, it does not matter if this was an FFL transfer of FTF - same paperwork exists indicating a sale has transpired on a firearm, which is taxable in the state of NJ. My fundamental point is that the OP asked about the process for a FTF, and it is irresponsible to give someone advice that is not technically, legally correct such as saying don't worry about the Use Tax. Simply, the OP should be informed that a FTF requires payment of Use Tax, and it be left to his own decisions from there. Is it a legal obligation to pay Use Tax on qualifying purchases - absolutely in NJ. Do NJ residents make different moral decisions - absolutely.