Looked all over the web and the drops #s are all over the place...

 

Anyone have any charts along these lines that they are comfortable with?

 

Trying to look at a 50 yard vs 100 yard zero.

 

I appreciate the help.

The way I was taught was to have a 50/200 yard Zero with M193 (55gr). You're approx. 2" low @ 25 yards, PoA/PoI @ 50, 2" high at 100, PoA/PoI @ 200.

You can put the load info in here and it will do the charts for you.

 

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

Looked all over the web and the drops #s are all over the place...

 

Anyone have any charts along these lines that they are comfortable with?

 

Trying to look at a 50 yard vs 100 yard zero.

 

I appreciate the help.

 

I have the charts for PMC X-TAC 5.56 55gr and converted them from 100 to 200 yard zero. I also have a target to use at 25 yards for a 50 yard zero that should also develop a 200 yard zero as the bullet drops through the line of sight.

Travis Haley did a video explaining and and demonstrating different zeros and how they group, actually shooting them at different distances. I believe the 100yd zero showed the tightest group throughout all ranges between 25-300yds. Grouped something like 3-4".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUwve2VMFBU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Travis Haley did a video explaining and and demonstrating different zeros and how they group, actually shooting them at different distances. I believe the 100yd zero showed the tightest group throughout all ranges between 25-300yds. Grouped something like 3-4".

https://www.youtube....be_gdata_player

Yea, I got the DVD - Adaptive Carbone - I am going to rewatch that section tonight. Thanks

The way I was taught was to have a 50/200 yard Zero with M193 (55gr). You're approx. 2" low @ 25 yards, PoA/PoI @ 50, 2" high at 100, PoA/PoI @ 200.

Thanks - matches the 50 zero closly from the "Calculator" see below.

You can put the load info in here and it will do the charts for you.

 

http://www.hornady.c...tics-calculator

That is quite a calculator - so the 50 zero, puts you up 2" @100, up 1.6 @ 200, -1 at 250 and minus 5 at 300....

 

The 100 zero drops to -5.5 at 250, and -11! @ 300...

 

I'm going with the 50 zero - much more "versatile".

 

Thanks again!

Your zero will depend on what optics you have and what "role" your rifle will play.

 

Personally, I have found the a 50/200 yard zero is the best for a fighting carbine at typical urban engagement distances for those in permissive environments where you still need to ID your threat as a friend or foe before engaging. All of my social guns are zeroed at 50 yards.

 

Target ID of friend or for is difficult at best past 200 yards. In an environment where everyone is an enemy this doesn't matter as much and a 300yard zero makes a little more sense. However with a 300 yard zero you still get a 12" deviation from highest to lowest (think of a 12" circle). Because of this hour holdovers can get a bit wonky and you will need to change your point of aim to get good hits on target if you can ID it as a shoot target.

 

The 50/200 will give you +/- 3" (think of it as a 6" circle) out to 215 yards before sharply dropping off with any ammo from a 14.5"-16" barrel. That translates to center mass hits at targets in a range you can still ID without too much trouble. Hold center chest and hit the sternum to the throat with no change in point of aim from 0-215 yards. Inside 25 yards, you will have to deal with mechanical offset (sometimes referred to as a boreline-sightline discrepancy) for any high percentage/high accuracy shots you would need to take. Mechanical offset will rear it's head regardless of your zero distance.

Just zero it in at 100 yards and force yourself to learn bullet drop, windage, ranging, etc... Better yet, practice using your optic's reticle for ranging and bullet drop.

 

How do you guys accurately and consistently practice shooting your .223 out to 200/300 yards with these "calculated" figures? Do you always shoot as follows:

- same exact ammo

- same exact temperature

- same exact barometric pressure

Just zero it in at 100 yards and force yourself to learn bullet drop, windage, ranging, etc... Better yet, practice using your optic's reticle for ranging and bullet drop.

 

How do you guys accurately and consistently practice shooting your .223 out to 200/300 yards with these "calculated" figures? Do you always shoot as follows:

- same exact ammo

- same exact temperature

- same exact barometric pressure

 

The beauty of a 50/200 yard zero is you don't have to remember anything about your ballistic trajectory from zero out to about 215 yards except what you need to know regardless of zero for high risk/high percentage engagements inside 25 yards. You don't have to test your brain estimating distance or range and can operate at the highest level of competency - Unconcious Competence - while under stress. The 50/200 yard zero has a maximum of 3" of vertical deviation(+ or -) regardless of ammunition or environmental factors. So there are no holdover unless you are inside 25 yards (which you will have regardless of your zero distance). Outside of 25 yards you just put your dot center mass and press the trigger and hit within 3" vertical of your point of aim as long as you do your part. It is simple and simple is good when you are stressed and heart rate is 220 beats per minute.

 

Also remember that the mission drives the train. If I was taking a high percentage shot at 200 yards with a Mk 12 mod 1 SPR this would be a different story, but, based on Combat Auto's other posts I believe we are talking about carbines with RDS or possibly a low magnification (3x) optic. No ballistic calculator, no reticle to speak of.

The beauty of a 50/200 yard zero is you don't have to remember anything about your ballistic trajectory from zero out to about 215 yards except what you need to know regardless of zero for high risk/high percentage engagements inside 25 yards. You don't have to test your brain estimating distance or range and can operate at the highest level of competency - Unconcious Competence - while under stress. The 50/200 yard zero has a maximum of 3" of vertical deviation(+ or -) regardless of ammunition or environmental factors. So there are no holdover unless you are inside 25 yards (which you will have regardless of your zero distance). Outside of 25 yards you just put your dot center mass and press the trigger and hit within 3" vertical of your point of aim as long as you do your part. It is simple and simple is good when you are stressed and heart rate is 220 beats per minute.

 

Also remember that the mission drives the train. If I was taking a high percentage shot at 200 yards with a Mk 12 mod 1 SPR this would be a different story, but, based on Combat Auto's other posts I believe we are talking about carbines with RDS or possibly a low magnification (3x) optic. No ballistic calculator, no reticle to speak of.

It came with a chinsy Red Dot (my very first! :-))...My goals are shotting along the lines of "Battle accuracy"...So, I agree the 50 yards gives a great battle sight zero....Thanks for your post!

Thanks for the Advise everyone...Shot 120 rounds of 223 yesterday of my C-15...She ran flawlessly - no failures...Easy to zero at 50 yards - in fact I had to do it twice :-) because the Red dot came loose,..Will be putting on some non-perminant lock-tight today. Guess I'll have to zero her again after mucking with it. Pencil barrel gets plenty hot BTW..Have to do alot more shooting at greater distance...But very happy with the C-15 (hey if you like "carbine" you gatta like "carbon" - lighter is better for a 223 556 anyway ;-)...

The 50 Yd Zero is also standard for 3-Gun Matches in the North East.

 

See above

The 50 Yd Zero is also standard for 3-Gun Matches in the North East.

 

See above

NICE! Thanks!

Try this? the more info the better? http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Guns-AR15-Zero-Introduction.pdf

You can put the load info in here and it will do the charts for you.

 

http://www.hornady.c...tics-calculator

 

I prefer this calculator because it has a huge library of bullets already, no need to go searching for the bc of the bullet your using http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

The ballistic tables are good info but overkill for the OP's application for a bunch of reasons.

 

The accuracy standard for a rack grade M4 is 3.5-4 MOA. That a 3.5"-4" group at 100 yards. An M4/AR15 is typically not accurate enough to make fractional point of aim corrections for every 10 yards of destance change - that's assuming the shooter can even accurately estimate range in 10 yard increments past 100 yards.

 

With the 50/200 zero your vertical deviation is +/- 3" out to 215 yards. You are talking fractions of inches in vertical movement off your line of sight every 10 yards. As noted above, the gun is rarely capable of that kind of accuracy. Additionally, the ammo is rarely capable of that kind of consistancy, and a shooter is rarely that capable at range estimation to adjust point of aim accordingly, and that is only applicable if the shooter is typically a 1-2 MOA shooter anyway.

 

If we were talking precision rifle, national match competition type stuff, different story. But, the OP is shooting Carbon AR with a red dot sight and looking for a "battle zero". A zero on a fighting AR with RDS needs to be simple. For that application all you need to know is your mechanical zero holdovers for inside 25 yards for high value/high percentage shots and what your max and min vertical deviations are and how to estimate the extent of your effective range with your chosen zero.

 

In this application, everything else is just cluttering up the shooters headspace.

H.E. makes good points...For me anyway, I do not have the paitions to be a precision shooter/sniper type - looking for "Battle-Sight" accuaracy...BUT, all the theory and ballistic information is great to have - makes you a better overall shooter...(Hum, just like all that stuff I learned in higher-education that I never used on the job, but the "contextual-knowledge" makes me a better PRO overall.)

The ballistic tables are good info but overkill for the OP's application for a bunch of reasons.

 

The accuracy standard for a rack grade M4 is 3.5-4 MOA. That a 3.5"-4" group at 100 yards. An M4/AR15 is typically not accurate enough to make fractional point of aim corrections for every 10 yards of destance change - that's assuming the shooter can even accurately estimate range in 10 yard increments past 100 yards.

 

With the 50/200 zero your vertical deviation is +/- 3" out to 215 yards. You are talking fractions of inches in vertical movement off your line of sight every 10 yards. As noted above, the gun is rarely capable of that kind of accuracy. Additionally, the ammo is rarely capable of that kind of consistancy, and a shooter is rarely that capable at range estimation to adjust point of aim accordingly, and that is only applicable if the shooter is typically a 1-2 MOA shooter anyway.

 

If we were talking precision rifle, national match competition type stuff, different story. But, the OP is shooting Carbon AR with a red dot sight and looking for a "battle zero". A zero on a fighting AR with RDS needs to be simple. For that application all you need to know is your mechanical zero holdovers for inside 25 yards for high value/high percentage shots and what your max and min vertical deviations are and how to estimate the extent of your effective range with your chosen zero.

 

In this application, everything else is just cluttering up the shooters headspace.

 

 

I posted the chart to demonstrate the accuracy of your suggestion to the OP to Zero at 50 yards.

 

The chart proves at 10 yard intervals the merit of a 50 yds. Zero for home defense and " practical " shooting” out to 220 Yds.

 

 

FYI . since you are probably not a competitor , there is a major difrence between the accuracy requirements of High Power and Practical Rifle Shooting Matches.

 

 

Be Safe J

Iggyort, The chart was fine. I like it and I use a similar one myself myself before going to any training classes to refresh my recollection of the min and max deviations at their respective ranges. It was the ballistic calculators and the "gunwebsites" link (that appeared to have a lot of errors in the info) that was delving into esoteric minutiae that was unnecessary at this stage for the OP's goal.

 

Cheers!

 

ETA: I am not a precision or NM competitor. When I said SPR I meant it as traning for as a working gun -LEO or .Mil sniper or DM, not competitive shooting. I know national match type competitions are much different then shooting DMRs or SPRs in a real world job or training evolution. My point was the the intricacies and nuances of your chosen zero will play a much larger role and have to be understood at a much deeper level with that "mission" than fighting with a RDS carbine at appropriate carbine distances.

Edited May 5, 201313 yr by High Exposure

So far I'm running a 50/200ish on my irons. I really need to get out to somewhere I can shoot out to 200-300 to see where it's at with my handloads.